I am so sick of streaming....

Tom-in-Amsterdam posted:

I have had my woes with wifi as well. What worked for me was to apply (almost) the same solution as Troy Hunt describes in his blog post "how I finally fixed my dodgy wifi". Troy is well regarded in IT and knows his stuff, simply google for that name and title.

Since moving into Ubiquiti I have had no issues whatsoever. It pretty much boils down to out powering your neighbours with an exceptionally strong wifi signal. I have two access points in my living room which makes for full strength coverage everywhere in the house and garden. 

Hmmm...I would rather not have my body bathing every day in an exceptionally strong wi-fi signal.

But personally I would not even try setting up any sort of serious audio connection over Wi-fi. If I didn't have basic network skills I'd just hire a techie or ask a friend to configure my wired home network.

perizoqui posted:

French Rooster posted:

the problem at the beginning of this topic was simple :  the op runs his 272  wirelessly. It is not the best way to stream with high end devices.  It is not 272 or ndx problems or limitations. With lan cables, the ndx is a very good product , no need raspberry or microrendu or anything else: just good lans.

The 272 is advertised as a wireless device. Just like the SBT (which the OP says works fine), the Apple TV, and the Raspberry Pi (to name only a few). If they work, but the 272 doesn't, then the wireless implementation on the 272 is not as robust as it should be. Using cables would solve that problem, but create another (routing cables through walls/ceilings/both). That's why folks buy wireless devices, so they won't need to route cables.

So the problem is simple, as is the solution you propose. The solution I propose is different, but also simple. The OP will have to decide if he wants to run cables, or not. The solution I proposed isn't bad. It's not a non-solution. It's not missing the point. It's just a different solution. One that allows the OP to stream wirelessly as he originally intended. I've tried both solutions, yours and mine, and I like mine better. Because it adds airplay and Roon to the mix. And also because wireless is convenient.

Personally, if I'd bought a $5,995 wireless streamer that didn't stream wirelessly, I'd be disappointed. If folks told me the solution was to not stream wirelessly, I'd find that less than helpful. If I felt like it came from an intolerance to hearing anything even remotely critical of the manufacturer, I'd be irritated. Wireless streamers should stream wirelessly. If a SBT can do it, a $5,995 Naim NAC N-272 should be able to do it.

it is advertised wirelessly, but 95% of users use lan connection, because it is simply more stable and secure. But i am not criticizing your solution, it was not my point.  Just not agree with the fact that you criticize the ndx because it doesn't work wirelessly for the op.  At this degree of performance,  the vast majority of people prefer to maximize their components and sound quality : the ndx and nds are performing best with lan connection.

Felix H posted:

Hi Pedro, a valid idea but you're missing some costs there: Roon is not free -  a perpetual license costs several hundred. Also, the 272 doesn't have a USB audio input at all - adding a really good asynch USB to S/PDIF converter will cost another several hundred or more.

 

Not quite, for the USB to S/PDIF you use the HiFiBerry Digi+ board for $25.90 or if you want to use BNC connectors to the 272 the old-fashioned Naim way, you spring for the Digi+ Pro board for $44.90.

As for software, you don't have to use Roon, but at least you can! If you don't want to use Roon, then you can use iTunes, or if you're streaming from a NAS (as I did until I shelled out the money for Roon), you can use any of the free UPnP apps (e.g. PlugPlayer, Linn Kinsky, etc...) out there. But I think anyone who tries Roon will be surprised to find it's well worth the price. Amazing software. 

French Rooster posted:

it is advertised wirelessly, but 95% of users use lan connection, because it is simply more stable and secure. But i am not criticizing your solution, it was not my point.  Just not agree with the fact that you criticize the ndx because it doesn't work wirelessly for the op.  At this degree of performance,  the vast majority of people prefer to maximize their components and sound quality : the ndx and nds are performing best with lan connection.

Didn't mean to criticize anything. My comments were directed at the NAC N-272, which is an amazing bit of kit. I came within a hairs-breadth of buying one myself. The OP has pointed out that in his environment the streaming capabilities of the 272 don't measure up to far cheaper hardware. I just offered an easy work-around that would allow him to keep his amazing sounding 272, have robust high-res streaming, and open up some options with Airplay and Roon if he's interested. That's all.

WilcoFT posted:

Sonos has prioritized ease of use and reliable wifi steaming over sound quality.  Naim prioritizes sound quality.  If you would rather live with lower sound quality so that you don't have to sort out your network, I don't understand, but you should do what works best for you.

I think we're mixing apples and oranges here. One thing is data transfer, another is sound quality. In good implementations, they are completely distinct. Sonos, or Raspberry, or Chromecast, or Apple TVs can do bit perfect and error free data transfer. Naim can do glorious music. Some Naim products claim to do both, but the OP has found that to not be the case in his environment.

Rather than throwing his Naim out the window, or moving to soundbars, as he and others have suggested, I recommend separating data-transfer, from the DAC, and analog circuitry. As long as your data is bit-perfect, and galvanically isolated, and isochronously delivered (that last one is why USB can be better than S/PDIF), it doesn't matter what streamer you use. The Raspberry Pi is excellent because for $35 you get demonstrably perfect streaming and very good wireless performance. But you can spend $695 on a Sonore UltraRendu for the exact same functionality, if it makes you happy.

Regardless, I'm trying to show that you can have the best of both worlds. You don't need crappy streaming if you go with Naim, just don't use their streaming input. Use a $35 widget and you get all the best that Naim has to offer (and that the OP already owns), and all the convenience of Sonos. What's not to love?

perizoqui posted:

WilcoFT posted:

Sonos has prioritized ease of use and reliable wifi steaming over sound quality.  Naim prioritizes sound quality.  If you would rather live with lower sound quality so that you don't have to sort out your network, I don't understand, but you should do what works best for you.

I think we're mixing apples and oranges here. One thing is data transfer, another is sound quality. In good implementations, they are completely distinct. Sonos, or Raspberry, or Chromecast, or Apple TVs can do bit perfect and error free data transfer. Naim can do glorious music. Some Naim products claim to do both, but the OP has found that to not be the case in his environment.

Rather than throwing his Naim out the window, or moving to soundbars, as he and others have suggested, I recommend separating data-transfer, from the DAC, and analog circuitry. As long as your data is bit-perfect, and galvanically isolated, and isochronously delivered (that last one is why USB can be better than S/PDIF), it doesn't matter what streamer you use. The Raspberry Pi is excellent because for $35 you get demonstrably perfect streaming and very good wireless performance. But you can spend $695 on a Sonore UltraRendu for the exact same functionality, if it makes you happy.

Regardless, I'm trying to show that you can have the best of both worlds. You don't need crappy streaming if you go with Naim, just don't use their streaming input. Use a $35 widget and you get all the best that Naim has to offer (and that the OP already owns), and all the convenience of Sonos. What's not to love?

I don't think I'm mixing up anything.  I referred to Sonos and not anything else as it can only stream CD quality, not hi-res.  As an aside, I believe the newer Apple TVs transcode from 44 to 48 kHz, therefore they aren't bit perfect.

I don't happen to agree that everything that measures bit perfect sounds the same, but I totally agree with you about the utility of Raspberry Pis - I use four of them as UPNP renderers and a fifth running Minim Server to serve my musicstreaming music in my house, in addition to my NDX and various Airport Expresses.  I think they're great.

But, to blame all of these issues on the 272, and not sort out the network doesn't make sense to me.  I've been streaming music since late 2004 and have run into my fair share of issues, especially at the beginning.  In almost all cases, the culprit was the wireless router.  Once I spent the money on a good one, along with a few wired access points, my problems pretty much disappeared.  I've also learned through experience not to use the router supplied by the ISP.  

Hopefully the OP will get things sorted out, and not sell his 272.  It seems like the cost of a decent router is less than the loss one would suffer in selling a piece of used equipment .

Jeff

perizoqui posted:

WilcoFT posted:

Sonos has prioritized ease of use and reliable wifi steaming over sound quality.  Naim prioritizes sound quality.  If you would rather live with lower sound quality so that you don't have to sort out your network, I don't understand, but you should do what works best for you.

I think we're mixing apples and oranges here. One thing is data transfer, another is sound quality. In good implementations, they are completely distinct. Sonos, or Raspberry, or Chromecast, or Apple TVs can do bit perfect and error free data transfer. Naim can do glorious music. Some Naim products claim to do both, but the OP has found that to not be the case in his environment.

Rather than throwing his Naim out the window, or moving to soundbars, as he and others have suggested, I recommend separating data-transfer, from the DAC, and analog circuitry. As long as your data is bit-perfect, and galvanically isolated, and isochronously delivered (that last one is why USB can be better than S/PDIF), it doesn't matter what streamer you use. The Raspberry Pi is excellent because for $35 you get demonstrably perfect streaming and very good wireless performance. But you can spend $695 on a Sonore UltraRendu for the exact same functionality, if it makes you happy.

Regardless, I'm trying to show that you can have the best of both worlds. You don't need crappy streaming if you go with Naim, just don't use their streaming input. Use a $35 widget and you get all the best that Naim has to offer (and that the OP already owns), and all the convenience of Sonos. What's not to love?

I was going to build a Raspberry Pi for my brother in law who is new to streaming.  Instead I did a little digging and got him a used SB Touch for $250 (CDN). Color screen and remote included

For all those who think the 272's WiFi implementation is so flawed... Two questions...

1)  Have you looked into and understood how it interacts with a WiFi network (inc ALL the network protocols it uses and why it uses a lower power transceiver).

2)  Have you ensured that your network correctly handles ALL these protocols and can properly detect the transmissions from the 272.

If not... then you haven't done due diligence and shouldn't criticize the 272 for things you don't understand!

perhaps i am not very open minded, but i prefer to use original software that naim is offering, with a good optimized network. I am pretty sure that these gadgets like raspberry pi or else, even if they perform well, will pollute the original sound of naim.  To end i think it is a pity to use so cost effective streamers as ndx  or 272 in wireless mode:  their full potential can't be reached.  It is not so difficult to hide cables.

Instread of all the money invested in these streamers, but to run only wirelessly,  it is perhaps better just to play bluetooth with an iphone and apple tv,  playing mp3 filles...

Eloise posted:

Naim don't actually sell it as a "wireless" streamer (look at the web page - there is zero mention of wireless that I could find). Wireless is there as a convenience feature and is recommended only for <16/48 rate files and internet radio, etc. 

French Rooster posted:

it is advertised wirelessly, but 95% of users use lan connection, because it is simply more stable and secure.

Two opposing statements here. I've just looked at Naim's website and nothing there suggests to me that it is a wireless streamer / using wifi to stream. I don't know if it is advertised as such elsewhere, but certainly not on the Naim website.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Eloise posted:

Naim don't actually sell it as a "wireless" streamer (look at the web page - there is zero mention of wireless that I could find). Wireless is there as a convenience feature and is recommended only for <16/48 rate files and internet radio, etc. 

French Rooster posted:

it is advertised wirelessly, but 95% of users use lan connection, because it is simply more stable and secure.

Two opposing statements here. I've just looked at Naim's website and nothing there suggests to me that it is a wireless streamer / using wifi to stream. I don't know if it is advertised as such elsewhere, but certainly not on the Naim website.

 

perhaps i have not been clear enough, but i wanted to say:  even if it was ""advertised  " wirelessly ", the vast majority is using lan.  I am more thinking as Eloise.  The naim streamers are intended to be used in lan connection first.   The wireless mode is pure convenience and not optimal for sound quality,  like the possibility to use memory sticks( but not as principal mode).

Huge posted:

For all those who think the 272's WiFi implementation is so flawed... Two questions...

1)  Have you looked into and understood how it interacts with a WiFi network (inc ALL the network protocols it uses and why it uses a lower power transceiver).

2)  Have you ensured that your network correctly handles ALL these protocols and can properly detect the transmissions from the 272.

If not... then you haven't done due diligence and shouldn't criticize the 272 for things you don't understand!

I can understand where you are coming from Huge, and you are certainly one of the more knowledgeable network guys on the forum. And I will readily admit (as is obvious from my posts, but I am certainly not alone) that I don't understand network protocols. But nowhere in any Naim literature did it say that knowledge was needed to run it wireless. And I am saddled with a proprietary router that by now I have paid for about 4 times over, I am not a network guru, and I don't have time to learn network protocols - I have 3 jobs and am about to lose my main one, so I am a little preoccupied. Not to mention networking is all hocus-pocus to me. I simply want to play music once in a while.

I would gladly switch to hard-wired, but if you saw my house layout you'd realize how untenable that is at present. It is just frustrating to own that much money's worth of audio gear and be unable to play at times. Switching my channel has helped immensely, but I view that as a transitory solution. Hard wiring, Simon's extenders, and Pedro's work around are all intriguing to me - finding the time will be the challenge. Of course if I get canned in October I will have more time, but then available funds becomes the rub...somehow I expect the bills will keep coming irrespective of income. (Or lack thereof.)

As someone just said above (too lazy to look again) it appears to come down to overpowering your neighbor's signals for wireless. Initial startup has always been kind of dodgy, but once I can get it going the sound quality is good.

Innocent Bystander posted:

I've just looked at Naim's website and nothing there suggests to me that it is a wireless streamer / using wifi to stream. I don't know if it is advertised as such elsewhere, but certainly not on the Naim website.

Well if you look at the NAC N-272 manual, it mentions 5 out of 8 input sources come from a "wireless network connection"... just on page 1. The rest of the manual is similar. So yes, it's meant to be a wireless streamer. Those two pointy things coming out of the back? Those are antennas. They're for streaming. Come on people!

French Rooster posted: 

 The naim streamers are intended to be used in lan connection first.   The wireless mode is pure convenience and not optimal for sound quality.

Maybe, though I don't see this statement of intent anywhere on Naim's documentation for the 272. Regardless, the OP's point isn't that the sound quality is worse wireless than tethered. His point was that the sound quality is non-existent when operating wirelessly because the connection keeps dropping out.

Huge posted:

For all those who think the 272's WiFi implementation is so flawed... Two questions...

1)  Have you looked into and understood how it interacts with a WiFi network (inc ALL the network protocols it uses and why it uses a lower power transceiver).

2)  Have you ensured that your network correctly handles ALL these protocols and can properly detect the transmissions from the 272.

If not... then you haven't done due diligence and shouldn't criticize the 272 for things you don't understand!

This is utter nonsense Huge. The 272 is a consumer device. It's patently absurd to expect buyers to become experts in network protocols in order to use it. No one at Naim would ever say this. Knock it off.

DrMark posted:

... Pedro's work around are all intriguing to me - finding the time will be the challenge.

You live in the states right? PM me your address and I'll send you a Raspberry Pi ready to plug in to the RCA in the back of your 272. It'll run you $87.08 including Pi ($35.7), SD card ($9.73), power supply ($9.99), and Digi+ board ($31.66). Those are the prices on Amazon as of tonight, including shipping and tax to my home in Indiana. Doing the setup will be my pleasure, from one happy Naim owner to another. I'm assuming you've got an RCA cable? I'll need your wireless network name and password via PM. Happy to do it. Just let me know.

Best,

---Pedro

DrMark posted:

Huge posted:

For all those who think the 272's WiFi implementation is so flawed... Two questions...

1)  Have you looked into and understood how it interacts with a WiFi network (inc ALL the network protocols it uses and why it uses a lower power transceiver).

2)  Have you ensured that your network correctly handles ALL these protocols and can properly detect the transmissions from the 272.

If not... then you haven't done due diligence and shouldn't criticize the 272 for things you don't understand!

I can understand where you are coming from Huge, and you are certainly one of the more knowledgeable network guys on the forum. And I will readily admit (as is obvious from my posts, but I am certainly not alone) that I don't understand network protocols. But nowhere in any Naim literature did it say that knowledge was needed to run it wireless. And I am saddled with a proprietary router that by now I have paid for about 4 times over, I am not a network guru, and I don't have time to learn network protocols - I have 3 jobs and am about to lose my main one, so I am a little preoccupied. Not to mention networking is all hocus-pocus to me. I simply want to play music once in a while.

I would gladly switch to hard-wired, but if you saw my house layout you'd realize how untenable that is at present. It is just frustrating to own that much money's worth of audio gear and be unable to play at times. Switching my channel has helped immensely, but I view that as a transitory solution. Hard wiring, Simon's extenders, and Pedro's work around are all intriguing to me - finding the time will be the challenge. Of course if I get canned in October I will have more time, but then available funds becomes the rub...somehow I expect the bills will keep coming irrespective of income. (Or lack thereof.)

As someone just said above (too lazy to look again) it appears to come down to overpowering your neighbor's signals for wireless. Initial startup has always been kind of dodgy, but once I can get it going the sound quality is good.

Independently of whether the 272 should work in your environment or not, it does not appear to work as you expect.

In this situation and assuming that a wired option is not feasible or suitable, the most obvious and straightforward solution is to avoid streaming large music files over the wireless altogether.

This can be achieved by running a UPnP server (e.g. Minimserver) and a UPnP renderer (e.g. upmpdcli) on a Raspberry Pi 3 with a HiFiBerry Digi + Pro connected to the 272 via SPDIF. You will have to keep a copy of your music data on a USB drive directly connected to the RPi3.

This approach will effectively eliminate all your streaming problems without compromising (and, most likely, improving) the sound quality of your system. The only data that will be sent over the wireless are those related to the communication between your control point (Linn Kazoo, Lumin app, etc.) running on a mobile device and the RPi3. You will have to abandon the Naim app which regrettably cannot act as a UPnP control point.

There is no PM on the Naim forum....

David Hendon posted:

There is no PM on the Naim forum....

Ah, thanks. I didn't know. Google my name then: Pedro Irazoqui. You'll find my email easily enough.

Huge posted:

For all those who think the 272's WiFi implementation is so flawed... Two questions...

1)  Have you looked into and understood how it interacts with a WiFi network (inc ALL the network protocols it uses and why it uses a lower power transceiver).

2)  Have you ensured that your network correctly handles ALL these protocols and can properly detect the transmissions from the 272.

If not... then you haven't done due diligence and shouldn't criticize the 272 for things you don't understand!

I frankly do not believe that one has to go through either 1) or 2) to criticize no matter which WiFi implementation!

I once bought a Pixel C tablet computer. Its wireless performance turned out to be miserable when compared to a three years older iPad mini. Iperf measurements readily confirmed the problem. I returned the device and got my money back. Google never admitted that the Pixel C was substantially flawed but they silently refunded all customers that sent back their devices.

Of course, it is conceivable that what the OP has experienced as weaknesses of the 272's WiFi implementation are in fact the logical consequences of a design that can be explained and justified. Still, the obligation of providing such explanations and justifications is on the manufacturer, not on the customer.  

perizoqui posted:

Felix H posted:

Hi Pedro, a valid idea but you're missing some costs there: Roon is not free -  a perpetual license costs several hundred. Also, the 272 doesn't have a USB audio input at all - adding a really good asynch USB to S/PDIF converter will cost another several hundred or more.

 

Not quite, for the USB to S/PDIF you use the HiFiBerry Digi+ board for $25.90 or if you want to use BNC connectors to the 272 the old-fashioned Naim way, you spring for the Digi+ Pro board for $44.90.

As for software, you don't have to use Roon, but at least you can! If you don't want to use Roon, then you can use iTunes, or if you're streaming from a NAS (as I did until I shelled out the money for Roon), you can use any of the free UPnP apps (e.g. PlugPlayer, Linn Kinsky, etc...) out there. But I think anyone who tries Roon will be surprised to find it's well worth the price. Amazing software. 

Rasberry Pi with those Digi boards to S/PDIF, is  probably quite a  jittery source not able to match 272 streaming mode sound quality. For similar sound quality I'd expect a proper asynch USB interface is needed for $$$. As for those other software you mentioned, they are no Roon and will open other questions, maybe another thread as long as this?

Nevertheless a valid idea, I just wanted to point out the  costs.

Some quotes regarding Wi-fi use from the 272 manual:

"As with any wireless network hardware, connection reliability will be affected by both network router performance and Wi-Fi signal quality." (4.7.1)

"NAC-N preamplifiers are compatible with the most commonly used Wi-Fi standards. Routers that support 802.11b and 802.11g will work, however those with 802.11n compatibility are recommended for best results." (4.7.1)

"An optional high-gain Wi-Fi antenna, the WA5, is available. The WA5 may improve Wi-Fi connection reliability in some installations. Contact your Naim retailer for more information." (2.7.2)

Felix H posted:

perizoqui posted:

Felix H posted:

Hi Pedro, a valid idea but you're missing some costs there: Roon is not free -  a perpetual license costs several hundred. Also, the 272 doesn't have a USB audio input at all - adding a really good asynch USB to S/PDIF converter will cost another several hundred or more.

 

Not quite, for the USB to S/PDIF you use the HiFiBerry Digi+ board for $25.90 or if you want to use BNC connectors to the 272 the old-fashioned Naim way, you spring for the Digi+ Pro board for $44.90.

As for software, you don't have to use Roon, but at least you can! If you don't want to use Roon, then you can use iTunes, or if you're streaming from a NAS (as I did until I shelled out the money for Roon), you can use any of the free UPnP apps (e.g. PlugPlayer, Linn Kinsky, etc...) out there. But I think anyone who tries Roon will be surprised to find it's well worth the price. Amazing software. 

Rasberry Pi with those Digi boards to S/PDIF, is  probably quite a  jittery source not able to match 272 streaming mode sound quality. ...

Whether the HiFiBerry Digi + Pro is better or worse than a typical Naim SPDIF source (say, a Core or a NDX) or than the 272 internal renderer remains to be seen. The Digi + Pro (Cirrus chipset, dual low-jitter oscillators, galvanic isolation, optional BNC connector) should offer a cleaner signal than the Digi + Standard. The latter is used in the Bryston BDP-Pi. I do not know which chips and oscillators are used in NDX and Core.

Just a point, the manual regrettably is factually incorrect. Wifi performance MAY  be affected by router performance.... and only if your wifi access point is collated with your router does the 'router' have any bearing... which although a default entry level option for many.. but increasingly not so for some, certainly if serious about wifi. I suggest those wanting to hidef stream by wifi will use a high peforming wifi setup commensurate with their audio components, rather than rely on entry level basic wifi components with limited wifi protocol support.

There is far more to wifi than simply the carrier protocol, such 802.11 b//g//n/ac

perizoqui posted:

Huge posted:

For all those who think the 272's WiFi implementation is so flawed... Two questions...

1)  Have you looked into and understood how it interacts with a WiFi network (inc ALL the network protocols it uses and why it uses a lower power transceiver).

2)  Have you ensured that your network correctly handles ALL these protocols and can properly detect the transmissions from the 272.

If not... then you haven't done due diligence and shouldn't criticize the 272 for things you don't understand!

This is utter nonsense Huge. The 272 is a consumer device. It's patently absurd to expect buyers to become experts in network protocols in order to use it. No one at Naim would ever say this. Knock it off.

I'm not saying that you need to become a network expert to USE a 272.

I'm saying that unless you're a network expert, then you don't have enough technical knowledge to criticise the 272's network implementation.

(However you should have a network that supports ALL of DLNA 1.5 before expecting a DLNA 1.5 device to work on it.  Before anyone brings up that the manual doesn't mention DLNA, it does mention UPnP, so if you're not prepared to accept the argument for DLNA, then you have to accept it for the whole of the UPnP suite of protocols!)

perizoqui, since you have misunderstood my post you should retract the "Knock it off" comment as that was unnecessary.