I have to keep reminding myself how much it would cost me if I were to take my 272 and throw it against a brick wall...because that is how angry it makes me. I am wondering if selling it and using the old SBT with a 282 wouldn't be better. At least the $300 solution works every time.
If it isn't one symptom, it is another. Music is supposed to be an escape from the other bull in my life, and now all I get is pissed off when I want to listen because I can't...or if I do, it is after 15 minutes of jerking around with turning stuff on and off.
Want to listen to one song before you go to bed? Mark, not only will you not get to listen, but your adrenaline will be flowing good and plenty before you can even get to the bed.
The new problem du jour (actually the whole week) is drop outs. Yes, I run it wirelessly - I have since I got the damned thing. And it has almost never had drop outs, despite all the other theatrics since I got it - now it is 10-20 seconds of music interspersed with 2-5 seconds of silence; back and forth. Last night the drop outs and the playing time got faster and closer together (ending at less than a second) until it finally "got past it" and then the bloody thing worked...until you stop and the next time you try, it is back to square one.
When it works, it is the best thing since sliced bread...which is about 60% of the time. Anyone who would be at my house when it acts up would NEVER buy a Naim product. Why would they, when crap at Best Buy appears to work better? Great sound isn't worth a stuff without being able to play it.
It has also suddenly taken to dropping a space in between cuts, such that it does not go seamlessly from one live cut to another. I checked the setting in LMS, and there was nothing.
Ironically, prior to this it had actually been on its most stable run since I got it for 2-3 months - the Android app was only working partially, but overall it was OK. (I really have built up a tolerance for the Naim streaming shenanigans until weeks like this and I explode.) Then this week it is un-listenable. Sometimes I can get it to behave by turning it off, restarting, reboot the NAS, etc...but who wants 10-15 minutes of that just to play music? (And that is by no means guaranteed to get me there.)
Nothing changed, and it went from working pretty well to as bad as it has been since I got it. I have tried operating it with iOS and from the front panel as well - nothing helps.
Yes I have a crappy proprietary router that I cannot get rid of...the same crappy router I had last month when it was on its good run.
This would be unacceptable performance from a consumer level product. For a boutique brand at this price point, it is unconscionable.
Yeah I know...I am blaspheming the Messiah...
Posted on: 12 August 2017 by Simon-in-Suffolk
Oh dear more mis information.. I feel for you, DrMark trying to follow and make sense of this... with wifi it's about being agile and using the minimum necessary (default) and multiple access points... As said earlier best use multiple access points that overlap on a single WLAN.. and let the APs automatically select the right power which will be default.
The APs will select the optimum channels to use and the clients will follow them... I am afraid no matter what power you are using on wifi if you are trying to over power a neighbour you will have a compromised experience, but this isn't necessarily bad if your access points are managing the situation... it's not about power in this regard... your network will be syncing with your neighbour's wifi network to an extent .. it just becomes like everyone shouting to be heard over each other in a busy room... just because you shout louder it doesn't make it necessarily easy to be heard... but someone whispering or talking into your ear in a noisy environment can really help.
So if you want to use your 272 and wifi.. a really good option... just best ensure you at least two wired participating access points in neighbouring or your listening rooms. Those Ubiquiti devices just could be the biscuit.
Posted on: 12 August 2017 by Huge
To those having a problem with a 272 and WiFi, you have followed the advice given in section 2.7.2 of the manual on page 5 haven't you?
"Note: An optional high-gain Wi-Fi antenna, the WA5,
is available. The WA5 may improve Wi-Fi connection
reliability in some installations. Contact your Naim retailer
for more information."
Indeed this will most likely only really help in a low noise/non busy wifi environment...where there is poor signal strength between AP and device... if there are neighbouring competing devices on close by channels or other users of the ISM band with nothing to do with wifi, this is unlikely to help much and could in some circumstances make matters worse... as said above best option if you want suitable more reliable streaming wifi performance is multiple overlapping wired access points working as a single WLAN.
Simon, I'm aware of that, but there are people with WAPs some distant from their 272 who are complaining that it's unreliable and blaming the unit, without even trying the solution stated in the manual.
For some it will help, for others sorting out their WiFi environment or going wired are the only ways forward. If people don't know enough about networks and WiFi to diagnose the real problem themselves (or with a little help), then I think they should at least try the solutions in the manual before saying the 272 is rubbish; they should also contact their Naim dealer for help.
True also that the solutions you have given here are much better and sort many more types of WiFi problem in a much more reliable manner.
Posted on: 12 August 2017 by Simon-in-Suffolk
Huge, I agree, I was just reinforcing the fact a high gain antenna is not a silver bullet, and to be fair to Naim they suggest it only may help.
I do blame poor consumer home wifi setups, they are not, I suggest, often fit for purpose other than for low bandwidth web based / social media web traffic or very low bandwidth compressed Skype / FaceTime calls and low bandwidth YouTube type videos on portable devices.. and to be fair that is what most probably use wifi for, and loss less hidef streaming is the first foray for some into something that needs to be a little more robust and less compromised.
Posted on: 12 August 2017 by Kurt L
I'm into streaming since almost 10 years. I used to have some SONOS things (wired & wireless) connected to a 10 year old Netgear 54mbs wireless router. Everything worked fine; never got drop outs.
2 years ago, I bought an ND5XS (wired) to replace the SONOS Connect, and a MusoQb (wireless) for the kitchen. As from then on, I regularly had situations where music stopped playing (both iRadio & UPnP) on both. I got frustrated since some quite expensive electronics didn't seem to work properly compared to the SONOS things that did the job since 10 years. Everyone pointed to the crappy 39€ router. I refused to believe this, as the router worked fine for my laptop etc.
When i figured out that I only had 32mb/s instead of the 200mb:s available on the ISP router, I decided to replace the Netgear. I bought a Sitecom. Basically, anyone adviceD me to buy a router starting as from 100€.
Since then, no dropouts anymore. Also note that music plays here all day.
So, bye bye frustrations - I should have bought a decent router much earlier.
Posted on: 12 August 2017 by Huge
It's difficult for people to understand and diagnose WiFi - I understand this, I know quite a lot about the principles of radio communications and a fair amount about networks, but I also struggle diagnosing network issues. Particularly for WiFi, you can't see it and the protocols are complex and described in non-trivial language.
To use the popular car analogy, the situation with WiFi is the exact opposite of putting oil into a car. In the case of the oil you can see the car's engine, you can see the oil and see it pour into the engine. The specification for the oil is clearly shown in the car's manual and also printed on the bottle the oil comes in. And yet some people still get it wrong. For WiFi none of these is true, the language is obscure, not printed on the product, and the product itself is invisible! So it's not surprising people find it difficult!
Posted on: 12 August 2017 by Simon-in-Suffolk
Huge, another thing is many confuse broadband, router, wifi as all the same thing... listening to my kids and their friends you sometimes hear terms like the wifi is really slow... it's not at all when I check, it's often the server responding at the other end of the web connection is or the xDSL line is loaded... I think in the consumer's eye wifi and broadband and internet and web are seen as the same things when actually they are very very different. I think this lack of understanding leads to a lot of confusion and frustration. I can't help feeling there is no excuse of this for our new generations. IT understanding seems to have stepped backwards, yet more people seem to want to base their lives around it.. no wonder there is a big push to improve basic foundation level IT awareness across all generations.
My biggest bug bear is people mis using the word internet when they mean world wide web, incorrectly confusing router and wifi access point and people referring to the Internet of Things as devices connected via the public internet... when it isn't ... what a load of mis leading nonesence, no wonder so many are confused...
PS WLAN terminology is not so different really from Ethernet, so if you are reasonably familiar with TCP/IP then obviously wifi fits within that ecosystem of RFCs. To see wifi working to certain degrees, looking at real time device logs as well as a protocol analyzer such as WireShark with a suitable wifi card can be helpful, not completely dissimilar to Ethernet and needing to use a SPAN port
Posted on: 12 August 2017 by perizoqui
IT understanding seems to have stepped backwards
You're absolutely right. My guess is that understanding has dropped as a result of increasing complexity. When I was in college you had a modem, that dialed up with a given baud rate. Pretty straightforward. Now you have cable vs fiber vs DSL going into a modem, then a router, some of which are wireless, some require a separate wireless hub. Many different ways of connecting and integrating. Many different protocols. Changing all the time. Who can keep up?
The really good companies, build products that overcome this complexity in a transparent way, so users will get the benefits of modern technology without needing a degree in electrical engineering. Apple comes to mind. They've built an entire company around ease of use. Airport, for example, is a wonderful product that combines router, wireless and tethered connections, and a hard-drive for automatic backups over WiFi. They're expensive, but you get what you pay for, and for people without the desire to learn all about technology, they just work.
Ultimately, I think it's the engineers job to build products that give the layperson access to high tech, without having to know about high tech. And that is a much more difficult job than building something that will work if you set it up just right. That philosophy made Apple the biggest company in the world, and Sonos the biggest company in wireless music streaming. The same philosophy is evident in Naim's Muso line.
Posted on: 12 August 2017 by Simon-in-Suffolk
Hm, I am not so sure, I have spent all my adult life involved with IT starting in the mid eighties, with audio, video, digital TV, home STB tech, IP voice, contact centres and multi channel automation, hosted and web services, data networks and software analyzers, and I think things have got hugely simpler.. there has been a huge convergence of information technologies and less proprietary standards out there... and also we have the www which makes look up and reference infinitely easier than the late eighties and early 90s when one had to wade through massive lever arch folders and that was a real challenge keeping updated...
I think the challenge is with the mass consumerisation of home IT product, and in the name of increased deployment simplicity and reduced costs many compromises are made, but these are not made clear to the consumer... and descriptions are over simplified and distorted with product marketing speak and indeed at one level this had made home IT products more accessible but the down side is there a real lack of clarity on how devices are working and what methods they are using to work... hence denying more informed consumers to make proper value judgements and decisions and adding to consumer frustration when things are not working as expected..
Posted on: 12 August 2017 by Innocent Bystander
Stepping aside from some of the technicalities, I think the thing is that people buying hifi gear - of which Naim is a prime brand - want to get it home, plug it in and play music, without worrying about anything else. A significant proportion, possibly the vast majority, will have limited knowledge of networks, whether wired or wireless, and to me it is unreasonable of any hifi manufacturer to expect otherwise: that is more for computer audio enthusiasts. To express this in another way, what I believe most hifi afficionados want is a plug 'n' play hifi unit, which if they have either a wired or wireless network means they expect that part of the system to simply work whether or not they have ant technical expertise.
As I have suggested in other threads, I believe it is beholden on the hifi supplier offering gear that fundamentally relies on a network for satisfactorily operation to provide a service that includes provision and setup of a suitable and guaranteed functioning network, and advertise the same to all purchasers. (in the case of mail order or other remote purchase where a full service of nework installation cannot be offered, the requirement and potential should still be communicated. And I believe manufacturers should make clear in their promotional and setup material that satisfactory operation is crucially dependent upon a network that is suitable, with the strong indication that effective use of tne gear cannot be assured otherwise.
Doing these simple things would help ensure satisfied customers, which after all is the desire of the customer, the dealer and the manufacturer. So the real question is, why on earth are they not done, and how soon will that be remedied?
As an aside, given the perenial issues with networks as discussed on this forum, I don't understand why so many people seem to prefer network streamers solutions that combine at least the store and renderer, such as the Uniti Core.
Posted on: 12 August 2017 by perizoqui
Sounds really nice, but dealers are fewer and further between in the US than in the UK. My closest dealer is a one hour drive away, carries nothing in stock, and felt I should consider Mark Levinson when asked about Naim... that's why I ended up flying to the UK to get mine. Then again, once in the UK one dealer spent the whole afternoon trying to talk me into Devialet when I'd been in e-mail contact with him for weeks telling him I was interested in the 272 and either 250 or 300. He felt Devialet streaming was far ahead of the 272. I wouldn't know, and given that I didn't like the sound of Devialet at all, wouldn't care 
Then there's the dealers who consider treating customers like idiots just for not being obsessive audiophiles/amateur engineers... you even find that attitude sometimes among forum posters... though this forum is by far the best I've ever spent time on in that regard.
Anyway, just saying your mileage may vary when it comes to dealers. Manufacturers must know that.
Posted on: 12 August 2017 by Simon-in-Suffolk
This is utter nonsense Huge. The 272 is a consumer device. It's patently absurd to expect buyers to become experts in network protocols in order to use it. No one at Naim would ever say this. Knock it off.
It’s the responsibility of the dealer selling you the device to help you install your streamer. Just like you would expect help with a vinyl system. That’s the whole point of the dealer network...
I agree, and not sure who is suggesting you need to be 'expert' in network protocols to use streamers... clearly that is absurd as you can't influence how the protocols are used.
The only thing one can do is set up a more effective wifi network using consumer plug and play items if wifi is important to you and your current wifi just doesn't meet the grade... no different than optimising mains wiring or enabling a home broadband internet router Plugging two Ubiquiti APs into a switch and following a simple consumer setup guide is as hard as it need be .. yes a tiny bit of knowledge / reading is required in setting up, but to be fair you need the same to get the best out of FM radio or vinyl replay.. and I agree the dealer is there to provide this basic knowledge should you not want to do that yourself.
if I am honest even my Sonos required more fiddling to get UPnP working than my Naim streamers and so most things need a bit of experimenting/setting up...
Posted on: 12 August 2017 by GregW
I have some sympathy with the argument that setting up a 272 should be approached with a similar mindset as a turntable. Time, patience and possibly even dealer support may be required. Where that breaks down is with something like a Muso, It really should just plug and play wirelessly within a few minutes of arriving home from John Lewis or the Apple Store.
I accept that many people don't have a robust network at home, but I've long believed that the root of many streamlining issues is the cobbbled together nature of UPnP. Here is what one of UPnP's critics has to say*:
1) UPnP requires codec support on the endpoint, therefore making different endpoints support a different subset of whats out there. This also puts a burden of patent licensing on the manufacturer.
2) UPnP has no good solution for streaming proprietary/unsupported/new formats
3) UPnP creates an ecosystem of lowest common denominator support
4) UPnP lacks "a brain", like the Roon or Sooloos Core, so it cant do intelligent things like Swim/Radio, normalization, crossfading intelligence, those pretty waveforms in the seek position, etc..
5) UPnP leads to a pretty foul experience. Spreadsheets and file management is not how music should be experienced. We haven't seen a good user experience with UPnP, ever. The HiFi dealers agree, and only put up with UPnP because they must. It was clear that UPnP was made by/for endpoint manufacturers, and not user experience creators. Our party line is that "UPnP leads to Twonky". You can put lipstick on that pig, but fundamentally, without a brain, you have Twonky like experience.
I have been a little too busy to keep up with Naim's progress with Roon, but I'd be very curious to see how UPnP compares to Roon on the same Naim streamer in terms of basic setup and reliability.
*Source: Danny Dulai, COO/President Roon Labs. https://community.roonlabs.com...ong-with-upnp/2101/3
- apologies for when I've done this 
- feel free to tell me off! 
).