A request.

A recent study has suggested that the average person is reading more now than they ever have.  You only have to look around to see that everyone is glued to a personal device reading and tapping away.

It could be argued that writing in a short punchy fact rich style is what we all need.    Or that the correct use of language is more important than ever.

Hungryhalibut posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

And this to posters whose native language is not English (other than those who use a translator before posting): Most, if not all, of your attempts at English are infinitely better than my ability in French, which I was taught at school for 5 years, Polish, despite a Polish parent and my parents often conversing in Polish, or Cantonese, with which I have had familial contact for over 25 years. I am ashamed of my poor ability with other languages, and admire you for your ability - and the same applies when I travel to other countries on holiday, where I try to say a few things in the local language, and am frequently rescued by a responce in often very good English.

I like the idea of a responce, though maybe it's something for adults only. 

Oops is the only response I can make! (I shall have to ponder how one might make a responce, and indeed just what form it might take.)

TOBYJUG posted:

It could be argued that writing in a short punchy fact rich style is what we all need.    Or that the correct use of language is more important than ever.

Somewhere in between ... then we might actually read EUAs!

TOBYJUG posted:

A recent study has suggested that the average person is reading more now than they ever have.  You only have to look around to see that everyone is glued to a personal device reading and tapping away.

It could be argued that writing in a short punchy fact rich style is what we all need.    Or that the correct use of language is more important than ever.

In many cases that is tapping away in abbreviated txt spk and one-liner inane drivel, and reading same, if my observation of people glued to screens as they walk around is anything to go by, and not reading a wide range of literature that would expand their vocabulary and help learn correct spelling and use of English. 

It does seem that these days people have a much shorter attention span, though I don't know whether that is created by, or the cause of, the constant breaking things down to short 'soundbites' and having news or trivia constantly running across the bottom of a TV screen.

I had not actually seen (scene) the responce word when I rote my comment  - however the the issue that gets my ire is the homophone

eg

their or there, weak or week etc

for a list of them see

http://www.singularis.ltd.uk/b...homophones-list.html

However I think the cause of these errors is that some people read with their mouth instead of using their brain. They mouth the words instead of reading and interpreting the letters to determine the word. hence they do not see the confusion that can occur when you see

there hifi - and expecting it to be in a remote location

or

their as in over their  - over what item that belongs to them..........

cont p99

Is homophonephobia not outlawed? (Or should that be homophonophobia?)

Mind you, the same errors also irk me, unless from someone whose first language clearly is not English.

Arf, arf. They irk me too; it surprises me sometimes that people who can afford an expensive stereo don't know when to use there or their, for example. Of course, that's totally irrational as they may simply be well off but with a poor command of written English. One of our relatives is a fantastic builder and is very well off, but left school at 14 and can't spell for toffee. But he is an astute businessman with quality standards that are second to none. I imagine that if he posted on here his posts would be riddled with errors. 

It is the annihilation of adverbs that irks me most; 'pay it off quicker' has me shouting at the TV screen. Even R4 this morning eschewed the use of adverbs, but it was that nasty right wing bigot at fault.

Hungryhalibut posted:

Arf, arf. They irk me too; it surprises me sometimes that people who can afford an expensive stereo don't know when to use there or their, for example. Of course, that's totally irrational as they may simply be well off but with a poor command of written English. One of our relatives is a fantastic builder and is very well off, but left school at 14 and can't spell for toffee. But he is an astute businessman with quality standards that are second to none. I imagine that if he posted on here his posts would be riddled with errors. 

Sadly most of the builders it has been my misfortune to engage produced work as riddled with errors as their use of language. At least you can excuse those who do the building work right...

Hungryhalibut posted:

Of course, that's totally irrational as they may simply be well off but with a poor command of written English. One of our relatives is a fantastic builder and is very well off, but left school at 14 and can't spell for toffee. But he is an astute businessman with quality standards that are second to none. I imagine that if he posted on here his posts would be riddled with errors. 

What excuse do doctors have for their bad handwriting?

I spelt 'lightning' incorrectly on a recent thread title. Oh the shame.....

Yours in embarrassment,

Stu

Eloise posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

Of course, that's totally irrational as they may simply be well off but with a poor command of written English. One of our relatives is a fantastic builder and is very well off, but left school at 14 and can't spell for toffee. But he is an astute businessman with quality standards that are second to none. I imagine that if he posted on here his posts would be riddled with errors. 

What excuse do doctors have for their bad handwriting?

Do they need one? I have bad handwriting, and I have no excuse. I recall that when I was in primary school my handwriting was criticised for looking like the trail of a spider that had climbed out of the inkpot and across the page (rather similr even now!), and I had to do extra practice. I don't recall other children in the same class getting that specific criticism, and certainly only a few of us had to do extra practice - so presumably it was not the school's fault.

My handwiting is quite different from that of either of my parents, and I don't think I was taught to write at home at all before going to school - so can't blame my parents for bad teaching.

As far as I am aware I had not at that stage seen my older brother's handwriting, so it was not that I was copying him: I just had bad handwriting, and only slow painstaking care could make it better - and then nowhere near as neat as others', and it would revert when I had to write at a proper speed. However, interestingly, both my brothers have quite similar handwriting to mine, so I am inclined to think there is something genetic there. Maybe related, we all excelled at science, and did badly at languages - maybe these are characteristics shared with doctors...

plus one on the handwriting, it was the arrival of the keyboard and the computer that liberated my ability to transfer thoughts to paper, then on reading it appears that the development of the computer was to no avail - so back to where I started.

As for handwriting  - it is now so bad my wife fills in the various forms and I just add my scrawl.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Do they need one? I have bad handwriting, and I have no excuse.

No they don't need one ... but its you who are spouting off about being uneducated and not able to write proper English!  I was just pointing out that clear communications is not always the purview of the educated!

I too have appalling handwriting, despite my father having the most beautiful copperplate.

My excuse, it deteriorated when we had a physics teacher with eidetic memory, he would read the relevant text the night before our lesson and "dictate". We were expected to write the whole lesson and hand the exercise book in complete at the end. 

When PCs were introduced at work, i was the first to get one!

Huge posted:

English is a little odd as a language - it's a hybrid, a mongrel derived for many stems (primarily Eastern Germanic, Norse and Romance stems, but there are others), as such it lacks the consistence of most other languages.  For many this would be a disadvantage however English took on another approach.  Instead of keeping the rules of each language in the way and place they were incorporated, in many cases English allows those rules to be used in a mix-and-match manner.  As a result you can mix up an English sentence in many ways and still be understood (do that in French, for instance, and the French will look at you with incredulity and complete incomprehension).

Two things to illustrate this, one a quote, the other a limerick (a sort of comic poem named after an Irish town).

"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."
James D. Nicoll

There was an old woman from Slough
Who had a most terrible cough
But even though
She's feeling most rough
We do hope that she can pull through

For non native English speakers although each line ends -ough, none of them rhyme!
(Particularly for you Adam as written Polish is phonetic; so (to the best of my knowledge) this can't happen in your language!)

Slough of all places!!!

Fantastic.

I lived for nearly 20 years in West Drayton - a short drive from Slough.

• Eloise posted:

  Innocent Bystander posted:

  Do they need one? I have bad handwriting, and I have no excuse.

  No they don't need one ... but its you who are spouting off about being uneducated and not able to write proper English!  I was just pointing out that clear communications is not always the purview of the educated!

  I think my post fell somewhat short of spouting off about people being uneducated and not being able to write proper English, rather I commented adversely about an aspect the education system in Britain, and recognised that it is not reasonable to criticise people for poor English without knowing if there is good reason for their lack of knowledge. But certainly poor communication is neither confined to, nor necessarily related to bad grammar and spelling, though as far as handwriting is concerned the only question of relevance (though a vitally important one in the case of a medical doctor) is whether whoever needs to understand it can correctly decipher it.

Huge posted:

 

There was an old woman from Slough
Who had a most terrible cough
But even though
She's feeling most rough
We do hope that she can pull through

 

Brilliant!

In fact, very thorough .......... ahem. 

Innocent Bystander posted:

• I think my post fell somewhat short of spouting off about people being uneducated and not being able to write proper English, rather I commented adversely about an aspect the education system in Britain, and recognised that it is not reasonable to criticise people for poor English without knowing if there is good reason for their lack of knowledge. But certainly poor communication is neither confined to, nor necessarily related to bad grammar and spelling, though as far as handwriting is concerned the only question of relevance (though a vitally important one in the case of a medical doctor) is whether whoever needs to understand it can correctly decipher it.

I maybe took "offence" wrongly at your post ... but it came across as a rather condescending "oh they are only a builder so what can you expect..."  Whenever i read "oh he's only a <insert manual job here>" I think of Fred Housego.

And sorry for any offence caused by criticising hand writing!  I was trying to make a point ... an made it badly!

Eloise posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

• I think my post fell somewhat short of spouting off about people being uneducated and not being able to write proper English, rather I commented adversely about an aspect the education system in Britain, and recognised that it is not reasonable to criticise people for poor English without knowing if there is good reason for their lack of knowledge. But certainly poor communication is neither confined to, nor necessarily related to bad grammar and spelling, though as far as handwriting is concerned the only question of relevance (though a vitally important one in the case of a medical doctor) is whether whoever needs to understand it can correctly decipher it.

I maybe took "offence" wrongly at your post ... but it came across as a rather condescending "oh they are only a builder so what can you expect..."  Whenever i read "oh he's only a <insert manual job here>" I think of Fred Housego.

And sorry for any offence caused by criticising hand writing!  I was trying to make a point ... an made it badly!

I suspect you may have been put in the mood by some other posts, as mine was actually defending those who either didn't have the opportunity or were for any reason unable to learn better English...

And  no offence taken regarding my handwriting - it deserves every criticism it gets, as after all sometimes even I struggle to read it! However I do try to avoid using my handwriting to communicate (unless I want to occupy someone for ages trying to read it).

As my name suggests I am a builder and although my spelling isn't great and my grammar worse I could build you a house from the footings up including drainage, brickwork, plastering, carpentry, roofing, plumbing, electrics, glazing and decorating, skills more useful than punctuation I think.

wenger2015 posted:

Me thinks some forum members have to much time on their hands...... 

+1

'too'

JamieWednesday posted:

wenger2015 posted:

Me thinks some forum members have to much time on their hands...... 

'too'

Perfect example... worry about the spelling (when the meaning was perfectly clear) rather than considering if some people DO have too much time and worry about things needlessly.

(Yes, guilty as charged)

FFS Eloise it was a joke !!! Jesus.

JamieWednesday posted:

FFS Eloise it was a joke !!! Jesus.

So was mine... well an attempt!  Especially as I was acknowledging I am guilty of having too much time on hands while posting here!