Ultimate Monkfish!

Out of interest what cable are you using for the retiring? Hope you enjoy the result of the upgrade, sure you will. Keep us posted.

Internal cable is being changed to AudioQuest 'SemiSolid' LCOFC 14 AWG (2.07 sqmm).

This shows very well the benefits of source first, which seems to be increasingly dismissed by some. Small cheap speakers will sing happily on the end of good electronics, whereas large ambitious speakers will not thrive on the end of inadequate boxes. So it's no surprise, to me anyway. 

On the other hand, the SP2s also sing very well on much less capable amps (no problem with a Nait5i for instance), simply showing the true nature of the amp and source.

It's a matter of how difficult a load is presented by the speakers.  If you put a speaker that is a difficult load on an amp that's not good enough to handle it, not only will you have the normal limits of a lower quality amp, but the difficult load on the poweramp will actually make it sound worse than it should.  The problem comes because expensive speakers are intended to be used with expensive / more capable poweramps - so the speaker designers tend to allow a more compromised loading to be presented to the amp (on the assumption that a better amp will be used!).

My belief (\observation) is that you add up all the deficiencies / limitations of a system and what you get is the sum of all these factors!

Huge,

What are you expecting sound wise with your rewire - crossover tweek ?

Out of interest what's the sensitivity of your SP2s ?

Years ago I had a pair of Acoustic Energy AE1's and I think they where about 85 db sensitive and where such a pain to drive and really needed a 100 watt + poweramp.My Bryston 2B poweramp could drive them OK but at 65 watts they ran out of steam on really demanding music.Audiolab  8000p drove them better but the best thing I did was getting some 92db Focal floorstanders to replace them with.Just so easy on the ear.

Look forward to your posting on how your the work has gone

Cheers Ian

If you’re not biwiring, it might be a good idea to convert to single wire by soldering links between the high and low frequency terminals on the crossover pcb.

It will be an improvement over link cables/bars or F connections.

Hi Tabby Cat,

I know I'll get one thing...

The confidence to know that my speakers aren't being compromised by >100mΩ internal contact resistance!

The previous set of connections was (each '>' represents a mechanical metal to metal contact)
Chrome 4mm binding posts
> Mechanically connected to unplated Brass grommets (starting to tarnish significantly)
> Mechanically connected to the  surface of the crossover PCB
3/8" tinned spade (M) (soldered to crossover PCB) (dull and tarnished)
> Tinned spade (F) (dull and tarnished)
> crimp contact to tinned copper wire (slightly tarnished)
> Mechanically connected to chrome binding post (this is soldered to the tinsel leads)

In other words there were 5 mechanical (i.e not soldered) metal to metal contacts inside the cabinet, none of which were plated with a noble metal!

Now we have

Gold 4mm binding posts soldered to Cu wire soldered to Gold over Be Cu Z plug
> Gold over brass 4mm socket soldered to PCB, Gold over Cu 4mm socket soldered to PCB
> Gold over Be Cu Z plug soldered to Cu wire soldered to the tinsel leads

So now only 2 mechanical contacts and they are made from much better materials.

I very much hope to get an increase in detail / clarity / transparency (or whatever you want to call it!).

The Spendor SP2s are 88dB/2.83V sensitivity.
They are 8Ω nominal and 6.3Ω minimum, with moderate phase angles (nothing exceeding 45°) so they are a very easy load anyway.

Hi Fatcat,

The original SP2s are single wire only, and I haven't changed that.

I have (self design/build) 3-way speakers wired with Chord Rumour Install - 16AWG  (1.31mm/2).    It's used from the speaker input terminal plate thru crossovers to the 3 drivers.   I have the crossover section split/separate, although the mid & treble filters are on a common circuit board,  they are separated electrically & distance - inductors are as far apart as possible. Bass crossover is completely separate & in the bass cabinet.  I agree in part with FatCat's suggestion of linking  between the high and low frequency terminals ,  in my case tho' I decided to stay with F-Con bananas.

CDS3 (or NDS) into a Nait 5 (because it needs the love) and a pair of Goodmans Maxim 2s on something like Kan stands if they fit. Standard wires.

Maybe a NAP90 for you, Huge, for a more authentic monkfish.

Huge posted:

Hi Tabby Cat,

I know I'll get one thing...

The confidence to know that my speakers aren't being compromised by >100mΩ internal contact resistance!

The previous set of connections was (each '>' represents a mechanical metal to metal contact)
Chrome 4mm binding posts
> Mechanically connected to unplated Brass grommets (starting to tarnish significantly)
> Mechanically connected to the  surface of the crossover PCB
3/8" tinned spade (M) (soldered to crossover PCB) (dull and tarnished)
> Tinned spade (F) (dull and tarnished)
> crimp contact to tinned copper wire (slightly tarnished)
> Mechanically connected to chrome binding post (this is soldered to the tinsel leads)

In other words there were 5 mechanical (i.e not soldered) metal to metal contacts inside the cabinet, none of which were plated with a noble metal!

Now we have

Gold 4mm binding posts soldered to Cu wire soldered to Gold over Be Cu Z plug
> Gold over brass 4mm socket soldered to PCB, Gold over Cu 4mm socket soldered to PCB
> Gold over Be Cu Z plug soldered to Cu wire soldered to the tinsel leads

So now only 2 mechanical contacts and they are made from much better materials.

 

I very much hope to get an increase in detail / clarity / transparency (or whatever you want to call it!).

 

The Spendor SP2s are 88dB/2.83V sensitivity.
They are 8Ω nominal and 6.3Ω minimum, with moderate phase angles (nothing exceeding 45°) so they are a very easy load anyway.

Thanks Huge for your detailed reply.

I am not very technically minded with electronic things;but have a mate who is a UK distributor of valve amps from the far east and remembering him telling me years ago that a lot of loudspeakers have pretty average components  -  and wiring in them.He had some Snell type J loudspeakers and sent them back to the guy they use for their amp repair and he upgraded the internal wiring - crossover caps and they sounded fabulous much better than before the work.

Maybe Loudspeaker internal upgrade is something we never consider ? but could be a big upgrade to system performance.

Looking forward to your posts when there up and running

Deteriorated connections are likely to be of more significance than the internal cable itself, which in the majority of speakers is likely to be only a small fraction of the length of cablecfrom amp to speaker.

Where speakers are made to a budget there will be skimping on quality of internal components - the crossover alone in some speakers can cost more to make than some complete speakers. And from a different angle, a speaker manufacturer may have assessed and determined that the differences in effect on sound of some components compared to others is either negligible or so small as to be not worth the additional cost.

Christopher M,

love that idea. A real flat earther of a system from the Flat Response/Hi Fi Review school of thought. Made me smile, but I really do still believe this is the best way to build your stereo!!

Stu

Thanks Stu. I felt the time for pu*syfooting was over!

Chris

Good man ;-)

Well, work completed, the SP2's are back in, so the system's been de-monkfished.

It's a bit difficult to do a true A/B comparison so general impressions will have to do.

Most identifiable result is that I can listen with two steps less volume on the 272 and still hear all the detail and get all the 'musicality' that I did before, maybe even a little more on the 'musicality' front despite the reduced volume.

IB,  I agree about the deteriorated connectors - that was my main reason for undertaking this.  But one would hardly consider the SP2s being made to a budget as such, the current versions are £2500!  However, they were 1980's BBC style construction so little or no attention was paid to the quality or longevity of the connectors.

In short it seem to have been worthwhile but I'll get a clearer picture over the next few days.

Huge posted:

My belief (\observation) is that you add up all the deficiencies / limitations of a system and what you get is the sum of all these factors!

Maybe a front-end weighted sum, perhaps?

Clive B posted:

Huge posted:

My belief (\observation) is that you add up all the deficiencies / limitations of a system and what you get is the sum of all these factors!

Maybe a front-end weighted sum, perhaps?

No, I don't think so, I could hear the faults in the Wharfedales, they were clearly there in the acoustic signal and not at all masked by the quality of the front end!

Clearly (sic!) a sound filtered by all the components, in this case Presumably most noticeably so by the speakers - in the above parlance, a back end filtered sum, though it is not a sum.

Look how happy this chap looks. Probably spent most of its life wondering what it would taste like cooked up with a nice bacon and oxtail sauce.   That would be my ultimate Monkfish yum..

Tabby cat posted:

Huge posted:

Hi Tabby Cat,

I know I'll get one thing...

The confidence to know that my speakers aren't being compromised by >100mΩ internal contact resistance!

The previous set of connections was (each '>' represents a mechanical metal to metal contact)
Chrome 4mm binding posts
> Mechanically connected to unplated Brass grommets (starting to tarnish significantly)
> Mechanically connected to the  surface of the crossover PCB
3/8" tinned spade (M) (soldered to crossover PCB) (dull and tarnished)
> Tinned spade (F) (dull and tarnished)
> crimp contact to tinned copper wire (slightly tarnished)
> Mechanically connected to chrome binding post (this is soldered to the tinsel leads)

In other words there were 5 mechanical (i.e not soldered) metal to metal contacts inside the cabinet, none of which were plated with a noble metal!

Now we have

Gold 4mm binding posts soldered to Cu wire soldered to Gold over Be Cu Z plug
> Gold over brass 4mm socket soldered to PCB, Gold over Cu 4mm socket soldered to PCB
> Gold over Be Cu Z plug soldered to Cu wire soldered to the tinsel leads

So now only 2 mechanical contacts and they are made from much better materials.

 

I very much hope to get an increase in detail / clarity / transparency (or whatever you want to call it!).

 

The Spendor SP2s are 88dB/2.83V sensitivity.
They are 8Ω nominal and 6.3Ω minimum, with moderate phase angles (nothing exceeding 45°) so they are a very easy load anyway.

Thanks Huge for your detailed reply.

I am not very technically minded with electronic things;but have a mate who is a UK distributor of valve amps from the far east and remembering him telling me years ago that a lot of loudspeakers have pretty average components  -  and wiring in them.He had some Snell type J loudspeakers and sent them back to the guy they use for their amp repair and he upgraded the internal wiring - crossover caps and they sounded fabulous much better than before the work.

Maybe Loudspeaker internal upgrade is something we never consider ? but could be a big upgrade to system performance.

Looking forward to your posts when there up and running

I've been told more than once that Proac use rather cheap components in their crossovers. I've been tempted for a while to internally hardwire the biwire posts which I have no use for and maybe explore the possibility of upgrading a few parts in the crossover. Thing is Proac don't seem to want me to do this as I see no way of accessing the inside of the cabinet other that by removing the 6'' driver and trying to poke around through the hole. A bit like building a ship in a bottle. Even the plastic back plate where the binding posts are attached appears to be glued to the cabinet. I don't dare trying to pry it out for fear of breaking it. I've been down the slippery DIY slope before and know how fast things can go wrong.

Iconoclast posted:

I've been told more than once that Proac use rather cheap components in their crossovers. I've been tempted for a while to internally hardwire the biwire posts which I have no use for and maybe explore the possibility of upgrading a few parts in the crossover. Thing is Proac don't seem to want me to do this as I see no way of accessing the inside of the cabinet other that by removing the 6'' driver and trying to poke around through the hole. A bit like building a ship in a bottle. Even the plastic back plate where the binding posts are attached appears to be glued to the cabinet. I don't dare trying to pry it out for fear of breaking it. I've been down the slippery DIY slope before and know how fast things can go wrong.

M

It doesn't take much effort to see! I'd remove the driver and have a look - all may be readily accessible and the hole big enough. As long as the driver comes out easily there should be no problem - if it is bonded in some way you'll need to make a judgement call, and if due to mastic then some may need to be used in refitting.

Trying to pry it out is a definite no-no!  - it may be held in place using screws on the inside of the cabinet.

In the case of the Spendors the way to remove the crossover is to remove the Bass/Mid driver disconnect the internal cables then unbolt the crossover and lift it out.  It may be the same for the ProAcs.

However "upgrading" crossover components (principally capacitors) to "better quality" components has been the cause of many DIY speaker fixes going wrong.  This is why I left the original polyester caps in my speakers unmolested!  Upgrading the internal wiring (from old generic low voltage 'hook up' wire) to proper speaker cable and upgrading the connectors (from 30yr old car type crimped spade connectors) to proper speaker connectors was a safe bet, and certainly won't upset the sonic balance of the speakers.

Even if you can't rewire the crossovers, replacing the pressed metal links with 'jumpers' made from proper speaker cable, or using an 'F' connector termination system, is well worthwhile.

Edit: crossed over replies!

In all except really cheap bottom end speakers, drivers aren't usually bonded in place or bedded on mastic, but rubber gaskets are very common.

The first thing I did when I bought the speakers was to replace the jumpers with speaker wire. Of course my obsessive nature would like to go further and internally hardwire. I also remember removing the screws and pulling out the driver but I chickened out when I saw how inaccessible the crossover was. I might give it another go just to refresh my memory as this was a good while back and I don't quite remember the details. I definitely don't intend on randomly swapping parts without fully knowing what to expect.

OK, I've had a bit of time to listen at higher volume and the changes are just as significant at lower level.

The initially noticeable thing is an increase in immersiveness, the sound just pulls me in more completely, the outside world stands even less chance of intruding now.

Additionally vocals are a little more readable and occasionally I'm hearing small details I've never heard before, but these 'HiFi aspects' of the system are less important than the 'musicality aspects'.

So perhaps the most significant aspect is a deeper connection to the feelings embedded within a piece.  For instance listening to "Stone Throwers" by Johnny Hollow, the sense of resignation to the tragic inevitability of things is all so much more palpable now.  In complete contrast within "The Curse" by Ari Mason the use of syncopation and a set of 'uncomfortable' harmonic intervals sets up a very disturbing feeling - so much so that it actually disrupts the rhythm of my breathing; rather freaky but very impressive.  As final example there's the album "Monstrous Child" by Bad Polyanna, after portraying all the horror, the fear and the psychosis, I find the resolution in the pathos and sadness of "Letting You Go" is quite overwhelming.