New speakers or 552?

I had a pair of Allaes for 12 years initially with a 282/hi/250. Over the 12 years I went through LP12 upgrades, box upgrades and SL upgrades all with the Allaes. Every upgrade over the years made them sound better. Only after the 552 last year did I decide the time was right to replace  them.

 The Allaes went in April to be replaced with B&W 804 D3. 

If the 552 is an option GO FOR IT you won't regret it and keep the Kefs

Are you somewhere you could borrow a 552 and find out just how good those KEFs can be? Naim have a nicely run in one their UK dealers can borrow to lend out for this very purpose. 

Sorry for late answer again.

I don't live in UK and there is no chance for me to borrow a 552 at the moment in my country.

I have just talked to the importer and he will let me lend me Titan 707 for some weeks. I have owned  the Kef's for seven years and want to try something else.  If a pre-loved 552 shows up later (in my country) I will consider to buy it aswell.

Thanks 

Do you have the ability to fly to say New York, put the 552 on your credit card.  Bring the amp back to your country and have an in home listen.  If you don't think by some special method this is an upgrade better than the 707s you can just fly back to NY and return the amp

am I nuts ?

I listened to a pair of ProAc Tablet 10's in my NDS/552/500 system the other night and they sounded amazing. It was so good I thought I could actually live with them.  This demo reminded me that what's upstream matters most. The 552 will provide the most significant upgrade to your system.  Your KEF's are great and have more potential than you realize.  Get the 552, add a few Super Lumina cables as funds allow.  Then look into a pair of Kudos speakers.  

oldneil posted:

Sorry for late answer and thanks to you all for advice, seems that most people go for 552 first, but I don't think many of you actually have heard the Kef's (?).

They sound very, very good on good recordings (like ECM and ACT) and classical, but show their shortage when it comes to poor engineered records, albums from the seventies or much of indieband's recordings. Their treble can really hurt sometimes and I have to turn the volume down.

Therefore I sell them now and will come back to 552 later. If a used 552 is showing up in my own country I will be tempted, but I don't think there are more than one or two in my country, and they probably never will be sold..

Thanks again!

You may be making a wrong decision here Oldniel !

There's a reason the majority of folk are suggesting a 552... it's a jaw dropping world apart from the 252 you have right now.  I still remember the day I moved from 252/300 to 552/300 as if it were yesterday; that's the effect it has in your system.  And yes, it will also tame your treble (I say 'tame', not 'fix' because I have no idea whether it would cure the problem you hear).

The one thing a 552 will do for you, however, is to present to you the music the engineer originally laid down.  Having worked in the music industry for many years one is mindful of the fact that no post processing electronics (eg Naim) can fix a badly engineered recording,  so my advice would be to accept this, stop trying to do the impossible and learn to live with it 

Roger

Chris Bell posted:

I listened to a pair of ProAc Tablet 10's in my NDS/552/500 system the other night and they sounded amazing. It was so good I thought I could actually live with them.  This demo reminded me that what's upstream matters most. The 552 will provide the most significant upgrade to your system.  Your KEF's are great and have more potential than you realize.  Get the 552, add a few Super Lumina cables as funds allow.  Then look into a pair of Kudos speakers.  

Chris, did you have a chance to try the Tab 10s with your Nait2?  I am considering them for a CB Nait2 I just bought.   Wondering if the Nait can drive them adequately.  

oldneil posted:

They sound very, very good on good recordings (like ECM and ACT) and classical, but show their shortage when it comes to poor engineered records, albums from the seventies or much of indieband's recordings. Their treble can really hurt sometimes and I have to turn the volume down.

 

If this is the main reason for the 707 approach, I would guess the 552 would be a faulty decision, no matter how good it is. It may even accelerate this. Oldneil may have the wrong speakers for his room, however, the 707 may be wrong as well, but since he may audition them easily over some weeks (and a 552 is hard to get hands on) I would say, try 707 first. If the sound signature changes to his liking, he knows he is on the right track.

Then... a 552 may be the next step... all IMO of course.

S

I understand the reverence on this thread for the 552, I really do.  I share it.

However, how many of us have heard a pair of Kef Reference 205.2 in a decent Naim system?  It has a particular style of reproducing high pitched notes.  

After listening to a pair at home for a fortnight, I found it to have a great sense of top to bottom timing, with a clean, articulate and tuneful bass - better than most.  It was the most balanced speaker I have enjoyed at home, but only when listened to from the side via an open doorway into the room next door. That is how far off axis we had to be in order to tame the tweeter's output.  And I am not exaggerating for effect here.

When listening on-axis, the tweeter seemed to beam notes at us like a high pitched laser.  If those notes were smooth, then the effect was bearable.  Any level of top end distortion resulted in an aggressive sound that would make us lunge for the volume knob.  A shame really, as we liked the speaker in all other respects.

Wonderful though the 552 is, the 252 is not exactly a forward, aggressive or unrefined pre-amp.  So the 552 is unlikely to tame the distinct character of the Kef Reference 205.2.  That is why I would suggest a speaker change first.

Hope this helps, FT

The 552 in my experience is pacy and a little more upfront .... so the 552 will not tame. The 552 is very very revealing and rewarding it will expose your front end ruthlessly..... The 252 is a little more relaxed .... so maybe something like the new kef reference 1 may be the direction you could go in..... you need a good dealer to help. I have heated the reference 1 they sound really good .... and may suit you. You have a good system....

GregU posted:

Do you have the ability to fly to say New York, put the 552 on your credit card.  Bring the amp back to your country and have an in home listen.  If you don't think by some special method this is an upgrade better than the 707s you can just fly back to NY and return the amp

 

am I nuts ?

I'd like to see the customs declarations paperwork at each border...

Yes not exactly hand baggage!!!! On a serious note you could consider changing to revised speakers and having a new mains supply.... as said before you have a fine system.

Foot tapper posted:

I understand the reverence on this thread for the 552, I really do.  I share it.

However, how many of us have heard a pair of Kef Reference 205.2 in a decent Naim system?  It has a particular style of reproducing high pitched notes.  

After listening to a pair at home for a fortnight, I found it to have a great sense of top to bottom timing, with a clean, articulate and tuneful bass - better than most.  It was the most balanced speaker I have enjoyed at home, but only when listened to from the side via an open doorway into the room next door. That is how far off axis we had to be in order to tame the tweeter's output.  And I am not exaggerating for effect here.

When listening on-axis, the tweeter seemed to beam notes at us like a high pitched laser.  If those notes were smooth, then the effect was bearable.  Any level of top end distortion resulted in an aggressive sound that would make us lunge for the volume knob.  A shame really, as we liked the speaker in all other respects.

Wonderful though the 552 is, the 252 is not exactly a forward, aggressive or unrefined pre-amp.  So the 552 is unlikely to tame the distinct character of the Kef Reference 205.2.  That is why I would suggest a speaker change first.

Hope this helps, FT

At last one person who actually have listened to Kef Ref 205.2 (I believe HH did too!) I also think that 552 is unlikely to tame the treble issue.  It might be worse.  Of course, it might be my room, but I have heard other spekers in this room without the ear fatigue.  I hope the Titans with its Seas dome are more friendly to my ears. 

If the Kudos 707 don't suit me either I have to look at other brands.

Hi Neil,
In my original response to your opening post, I suggested a call to Derek Dunlop at ART.  Yes, I ended up buying a pair of their speakers after auditioning almost everything else on the UK market, so I obviously rate them highly.  Money, mouth and all that.

However, another member of this forum who lives outside the UK was in a similar position to you and was looking to replace a much loved pair of IMF speakers (if I remember correctly - check for threads by Innocent Bystander).  ART flew a pair of speakers out to that person to audition for a week or two.  They would probably do the same for you, even if you decide to opt for the excellent Kudos 707.  Even then, I would find a way to hear the B&W 803D3 and Wilson Sabrina, even if that meant a dealer demo at a UK dealership. 

Hope this helps, FT

Yes, thank you, Foot Tapper.

I will listen to the Kudos first and see if I like them as much as Miki185 and several others here. I really don't like the look of B&W or Wilson.  Havn't heard of ART speakers and I prefer to buy speakers from dealers in my own country. Thanks again!

You never know the true sound of your black boxes until they are connected together and to the speakers by the full Super Lumina loom. Start with the SL IC and speaker cable as others say these two balance each other out during the running in. Then add the DIN to XLR.  The DIN XLR was for me the most significant improvement bringing a wow to all my music. You need the full loom, which in my case included the RCA to DIN for my Rega RP10/Aphelion/Aria.

My speakers have always just delivered what is presented to them. I have them on the long wall of our lounge which is just a bit shorter (6.5m) than yours because that is the best way to socialise. The room is also a bit asymmetric. Don't be afraid to tweak the toe-in so that you listen a bit off axis as someone else suggested. I would expect good speakers to last a lifetime (well 30 years).

Phil

Kef Reference 1's don't often get a mention on the forum but you owe it to yourself to have a listen to them. I have owned a pair since October of last year and they really are very good. They easily fill my largish (11m*6m max) room and the 250DR drives them with ease. I have a 252 with a SCDR and have always been puzzled by the don't bother with it - go straight to a 552 if you can afford it brigade. I thought long and hard about spending circa £4.5k (less what I got for my 282) on a 3 year old (2012 model) 252 a couple of years back - I already had the SCDR. I am pleased I did though as, to me, it is a much better amp and the Kef's have really been able to show what it is capable of delivering.

I have never heard a 552 - and I will not seek to as my system now ticks all my boxes. I think it is very easy to get carried away with spending ever more on black boxes - and £20k for a preamp is a shed load of money by any measure - without giving due consideration to speakers. Of course a 552 is better than a 252 - I don't even need to hear it to know that, as Naim would have a very strange marketing strategy if it was not the case. Before spending that sort of money though you need to think where it might take you (500, SL, etc.) and if that is what you are seeking ultimately. Have a listen to the Kef's - they might be the answer you are looking for. By the way I have mine on Chord Epic Reference cables - a relatively modest outlay.

GregU posted:

Do you have the ability to fly to say New York, put the 552 on your credit card.  Bring the amp back to your country and have an in home listen.  If you don't think by some special method this is an upgrade better than the 707s you can just fly back to NY and return the amp

 

am I nuts ?

and then fly to the moon and stick an S1 on the old visa.   

Am I nuts?

The Dr Supercap / 252 is a very good combo, the DR upgrade made a huge difference to the 252 based on my experience.

Gary

Allan glad you have reinforced my feelings re the reference 1..... they are amazing.... I think your advice is spot on .... this is from an owner of a 552..... I suggest the ref 1 is tried.... yes the 552 is fab .... but it is not a panacea...

I was a bit surprised that Jon Honeyball didn't recommend that you try a Townshend Allegri passive preamplifier which I recall reading on here that he thought was superior to the NAC552. I've not been able to try one yet, but the passive design makes so much sense now that phono stages really make the role of the preamplifier largely redundant.