Sell the 552? Oppurtunity cost? The anti-zoot thread

for me personally To be able to afford a 552, is to play music on it, and not let thoughts of the cost of it spoil that enjoyment.

or maybe another way to look at it, are you ready to not buy brand new cars over the life of the 552, if yes, then keep the 552.

I made my peace with hi-fi spending by sacrificing on brand new car purchases. Naim works out considerably cheaper for me than wasting money on cars.

I notice that people don't question money spent on porches BMW or Mercedes, but somehow feel Naim 500 series is too much of a luxury ?

Knowing what I know, I regret buying brand new cars, wish I had spent the money on 500 series Naim hi-fi instead.

the problem with 552, it does not stop there.... you need the source, speaker etc... it never ends...

also need to check the recent competition..... every electronic product has a negative price trend except 552!!

is it a timeless design ok but it already paid the investment cost 10 times, the components must be cheaper in time etc....  

 i think Naim's margin on that product is waaaay beyond the new range....   

Emre posted:

also need to check the recent competition..... every electronic product has a negative price trend except 552!!

Not at all.. you look at hand constructed devices built in European countries, they have nearly all risen in price over the years just as labour costs have. It's the mass produced, constructed by robot devices that have been declining in cost and subsequent price.

MangoMonkey posted:

dont really need the funds - but the 20K will be worth 100K in 20yrs... 

or 

the 20K, as part of a down payment for a second home, will be worth a hell of lot more due to leverage...

what does it mean to be able to 'afford' something?

I have two schools of thought here. One is that you should enjoy the benefits of 552 while you are relatively young and your ears can truly appreciate all it has to offer. Then again, with two young kids at home how much dedicated time will you spend with it?

The other is, spend the money elsewhere in your time and space, then 20 years from now, when the kids are grown and you have more time to spend on dedicated listening, get the ultimate system. The quandary then is that your hearing will have deteriorated (yes, it happens) and you won't garner all it has to offer.

The tertiary school of thought is do you want to currently enjoy the 552 when its cost represents something that could otherwise grow into funds for your retirement or your children's college education? 

Folks here like to say they "invest" in gear, but in reality it's an expense that will only ever depreciate. I'd sell the 552, take those funds and make a true investment that will appreciate in the future. You say you like the nac272/555/300 well enough.

If you happen to change your mind, you can always buy another 552.

If you can afford one then buy one.

if you can't afford one then don't buy one.

if you can have a holiday and a 552 you can afford it.

if you're having to choose between it and a holiday then you can't afford it.

Rather than offer advice, I'll just say where I sit on this spectrum in case that provides any view on one way to see things.

Back in 1993, I replaced my 72 with an 82, powered with a Hicap and feeding 135s.  I was always conscious that the 82 was a stop-gap before I got the 52, a couple of years later I decided to do the upgrade, and listened to the 52, and also the 82 with a Supercap. The 52 was significantly better, the SC a smaller improvement, but I took a bit of time to think about it. I realised that I was already getting huge pleasure from the music I listened to, and for me (this is why I'm saying this is personal), I didn't think the improved amp would change that for the better. I had a system that allowed me to sink into the music and be transported to where the composer/artist took me, the upgrades would allow me to hear more detail and have a better spatial presentation, but they wouldn't actually improve my engagement with the music.

So I, to my own surprise, stayed with the 82, and that's what I still listen to now. I know that a move to the top-end amps would give me better sound quality, but I already spend my evenings at home completely immersed in music, so I don't think that for me there would be a change in my musical enjoyment, just my hifi enjoyment if that makes sense.

I'm not claiming that my saving money on amps led to a better long-term financial position, I suspect that most of that money went to London wine merchants for 1980s clarets, which have long since been through me and down the drain literally.

The OP has got one so affordability isn't the issue here (unless it's on the never never). 

Mango - Money aside, how much do you use it ? If you spend a lot of time listening and get a lot of enjoyment from the 552 in your system then hang onto it. You're at the top of the Naim game without spending daft amounts so think carefully before making that move 

Eoink posted:

 

So I, to my own surprise, stayed with the 82, and that's what I still listen to now. I know that a move to the top-end amps would give me better sound quality, but I already spend my evenings at home completely immersed in music, so I don't think that for me there would be a change in my musical enjoyment, just my hifi enjoyment if that makes sense.

Quite - This is what the very best systems allow you to do and it's a good place to be. Too many people keep chasing the upgrade path and never quite get there  

MangoMonkey posted:

 

dont really need the funds - but the 20K will be worth 100K in 20yrs... 

 

 

Wow, where do you invest? Thats a continuous growth rate of almost 9%! 

The question, however, is relevant to any spending on luxury items (and expensive hifi is a luxury item), needing to be balanced by the individual according to personal circumstances and priorities. That applies at purchase, and of course in terms of ongoing posession of value tied up in an asset especially if circumstances or priorities change. Perhaps a greater risk with hifi compared to some luxury purchases is that 'upgraditis' can be like an addiction.

As indicated on the zoot thread, my view is much like Drewy's, and that might apply to retention of particularly high value items if times got tough enough and resale values good enough. But I would never dispose of my music collection i(of course now easy with it all on a hard disk) and some means of playing - I've always struggled to understand people who have had a system and then either sold it and the music, or just not used it, and gone without for years before rediscovering.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Emre posted:

also need to check the recent competition..... every electronic product has a negative price trend except 552!!

Not at all.. you look at hand constructed devices built in European countries, they have nearly all risen in price over the years just as labour costs have. It's the mass produced, constructed by robot devices that have been declining in cost and subsequent price.

what % is cost of labour  in retail price? 5 -10% max?  the initial cost ( RnD etc ) has been paid of so there is no depreciation cost, there is no marketing cost ( or very little ) associated directly with the product ( vs new products etc ), the cost of electronic material is getting lower....

it is the margins going up nothing else, this is a category/product for super rich, so they price it that way, it is a " milking " stage product...

I understand that level of pricing if you come up with a new and a very low volume, hand build product with a years of RnD time behind it, but after 15 years if the product is not becoming more economic but more expensive there is only profit margins to blame.... 

Bit of a side point but where are you finding investments that can confidently give you 8.3% REAL return over 20 years?

I'm sure we'd all like to be in on that!

Affordability is a slippery concept. Last time I spent money on new Naim equipment the dealer showed me a bunch of photos of some serious systems they had sold/installed recently. Some of them were clearly to people for whom it was not a big decision (clearly the sort of grand homes with Ferraris etc on the drive) but for others it was obviously a big chunk of their spending capacity. In the latter case I'd find it hard to justify - for most of us spending £50-100k on hifi now means that we will have less money in retirement/have to work later in life/ be less able to help our kids buy their first home, etc. I'm a strong believer that having capital gives you choices and only when you have choices are you free.

I'm fortunate enough that I could buy a 500 series system without it changing my lifestyle but it would mean retiring a bit later etc. And frankly the amount of money tied up in a (even fairly slowly) depreciating asset would make me feel a bit of guilty (and a bit embarrassed if many of my friends realised how much it cost). But I also have only ever bought one new car so a lot of this is about my personality more than anything else.  We did buy a holiday apartment which we use a lot and washes its face on running costs with a little letting (although we spend a fair amount when we are out there) but I see that as at least a store of value (in real terms) rather than a depreciating asset.

There is also an issue of how much time I get to really listen to music - not enough! I might, despite no doubt deteriorating hearing, spend a chunk more if and when I can afford to retire early, have put some money aside to help with deposits on first homes, etc.

Sorry to be boring!

Mango me old primate.  It's simple what's of most value to you - listening to fantastic music or seeking to leverage more from your £20K?  Only you can answer.

Regards,

Lindsay

Emre posted:

what % is cost of labour  in retail price? 5 -10% max?  the initial cost ( RnD etc ) has been paid of so there is no depreciation cost, there is no marketing cost ( or very little ) associated directly with the product ( vs new products etc ), the cost of electronic material is getting lower....

it is the margins going up nothing else, this is a category/product for super rich, so they price it that way, it is a " milking " stage product...

I understand that level of pricing if you come up with a new and a very low volume, hand build product with a years of RnD time behind it, but after 15 years if the product is not becoming more economic but more expensive there is only profit margins to blame.... 

I'm sure you are right about the margins but to be fair to Naim:

1. it is not a charity, its job is to make money for its shareholders

2. The products are priced to extract perceived value rather than recover cost. That is what marketing, particularly of premium products, is all about

3. If you really enjoy listening to music and have an income anywhere in the top 20% of UK earners, Naim does offer a product (somewhere in the range) that provides good VFM (of the equipment I have bought new I think my Nait 3, UQ and SU - probably in that order - have been excellent VFM). Quite which product that is depends on your income, your hearing  and how much you value music. Of course ultimate value for money is probably buying olive gear second hand but that is in large part a reflection of Naim's commitment to quality and service support.   

So I too find it hard not to smile wryly when I see (just for an example) the price premium of a 250 over a 200 and contemplate how much extra a 250 actually costs to make. But that is not really the point. The point is how many people sit in listening rooms comparing the two then reaching for their credit card to buy the 250 despite the premium.

Mango's second system is better than my only system, and my only system is really wonderful. How much Hifi does one need? Sometimes these decisions are best made by oneself. What is the point of asking on the Forum? Some say sell, some say don't. Anyone who has the intellectual wherewithal to afford two top notch systems, a house, be thinking of a second house, nice cars and whatever can surely solve the problem for themselves. If you want to keep it, keep it. If you don't, then don't. My take on this is that if you are questioning why you have something then you probably shouldn't keep it. It's easy to buy another one. It's not like selling a piece of original art that you'll never be able to re-acquire. 

In fairness HH, I recall a very nicely put response of yours when I was musing once about getting a 300. I'm paraphrasing, because you put it then better than I can now precisely recall, but it came down not to whether I "needed" a 300, but whether I "wanted" one. As I read MM's post(s), this is really the position he finds himself in too. By definition a very personal decision, as you rightly say.

analogmusic posted:

 

for me personally To be able to afford a 552, is to play music on it, and not let thoughts of the cost of it spoil that enjoyment.

or maybe another way to look at it, are you ready to not buy brand new cars over the life of the 552, if yes, then keep the 552.

I made my peace with hi-fi spending by sacrificing on brand new car purchases. Naim works out considerably cheaper for me than wasting money on cars.

I notice that people don't question money spent on porches BMW or Mercedes, but somehow feel Naim 500 series is too much of a luxury ?

Knowing what I know, I regret buying brand new cars, wish I had spent the money on 500 series Naim hi-fi instead.

 

I have never bought and never would buy a brand new car - they lose so much value just through that first ownership. My philosophy is to buy a good used one (which translates to young high mileage): that way I can get a far better car than I could otherwise afford, and negligible depreciation. I then keep until it starts to give problems - typically 5-10 years: if it is a good car, why change it?

My approach to hifi generally is much the same, though longevity tends to be greater.

Fortunately not everyone is like me, or there'd be nothing for me to buy! If MM decides to downgrade  it is good news for those waiting for one secondhand.

JedT posted:

Emre posted:

what % is cost of labour  in retail price? 5 -10% max?  the initial cost ( RnD etc ) has been paid of so there is no depreciation cost, there is no marketing cost ( or very little ) associated directly with the product ( vs new products etc ), the cost of electronic material is getting lower....

it is the margins going up nothing else, this is a category/product for super rich, so they price it that way, it is a " milking " stage product...

I understand that level of pricing if you come up with a new and a very low volume, hand build product with a years of RnD time behind it, but after 15 years if the product is not becoming more economic but more expensive there is only profit margins to blame.... 

I'm sure you are right about the margins but to be fair to Naim:

1. it is not a charity, its job is to make money for its shareholders

2. The products are priced to extract perceived value rather than recover cost. That is what marketing, particularly of premium products, is all about

3. If you really enjoy listening to music and have an income anywhere in the top 20% of UK earners, Naim does offer a product (somewhere in the range) that provides good VFM (of the equipment I have bought new I think my Nait 3, UQ and SU - probably in that order - have been excellent VFM). Quite which product that is depends on your income, your hearing  and how much you value music. Of course ultimate value for money is probably buying olive gear second hand but that is in large part a reflection of Naim's commitment to quality and service support.   

So I too find it hard not to smile wryly when I see (just for an example) the price premium of a 250 over a 200 and contemplate how much extra a 250 actually costs to make. But that is not really the point. The point is how many people sit in listening rooms comparing the two then reaching for their credit card to buy the 250 despite the premium.

i totally agree and i would do the same if i manage NAİM,  my point is i would rather prefer a 70% Gross margin Naim Pre rather then a 300% one even there is X amount of a change in SQ quality that X amount is a very but very expensive with a cocaine margin....  

The Big Fish & Innocent are point on!

Mangos 2nd System is kick A**!

&

 As Innocent pointed out, if everyone had that Jack Benny Character, No GDP!

Personally when I joined the Forum, going on three years now, the gentleman that sold me on a pre-loved 282, his argument went (something) like:

I've come to the realization that all that's needed to truly enjoy music is a fairly modest system. While 500 series systems sound great, they in all honesty don't sound all that much better than my system, at least in my size room it wouldn't make much of a difference. The cost difference isn't really worth it to me.  I did the Naim separates thing before, and while I was proud of that system, I always had a little guilt for spending soo much on it that I never really enjoyed it because of that nagging guilt that I could have put that money to better use, and for not being so selfish and self indulgent.

I truly cringe when I see some of these systems that have three separate Frame racks with all those high dollar Naim black boxes. Speakers that cost what an average SUV cost. I always say to myself that the money could be put to such better use. In my case I purchased a summer cottage near a lake that my whole family and relatives can enjoy.  Please don't get me started on the cable costs that people deem necessary to spend to enjoy their systems.

This hobby, or some might even call it a sickness, can at an alarming rate become an out of control spending spree, keeping up with the Joneses game if one is not careful and aware of the facts that one, you definitely can enjoy music on any level of system, and two, this stuff, even the high dollar Naim stuff,  is not worth a whole lot when you try to sell it, the depreciation is pretty high. That is the realization, at least in my case it was.  I'm glad I sold my high dollar Naim stuff when I did, and feel a whole lot better about myself. Even my simple three box system, who some not privy to the hobby would surly think is an outrageous and embarrassing  amount of money to spend on a stereo system. To be quite honest, I would have to agree with that sentiment.

The above reply is just my opinion, I don't know the financial status of the owners of these high dollar systems, to some of these members money is obviously not a factor and can easily spend whatever amount they deem necessary, my reply is aimed more towards the individuals who may not have the disposable income that others here obviously have.

Not sure of the point asking the forum such a personal question. Reality is that everyone has different financial circumstances and different life priorities and /or preferences. Whilst all on the forum have a preference for listening to music and an appreciation of Naim, only the OP can really determine what is right for them. What the OP does know is the experience of living the 'Naim highlife' and whether the value of this is right against their financial circumstances and perspective on priorities. Also, the 'make do' system is one that many on this forum aspire to.

 No idea what the speculative profit margins that Naim levy on the 552 has to do with the question posed by the OP

AFAIK, within a few percentage points, Naim tries to maintain a similar % margin right across the regular electronics range (i.e. I can't include Mu-So or Statement here as they post date my time at the factory and wrt the Mu-So may well be a different model anyway) - this covers not just costs of labour and materials but also R&D, marketing, and everything else that keeps the lights on and gives Naim the ability to invest in the future.  There's certainly no extra "Speculative" % margin piled on to the NAC552.

As to the cost, well, you can analyse the cost of any hifi and come to the conclusion that against your phone and a  pair of earbuds it's unnecessary or costs too much.  Rather than think of the cost or the price, consider the value, to you personally and nobody else.  If you love music, have a great collection and want to hear it at its best during the limited time you have, then what price is that?  We all have an idea of an answer and it will be different for everyone. 

Well put!!!

Richard Dane posted:

AFAIK, within a few percentage points, Naim tries to maintain a similar % margin right across the regular electronics range (i.e. I can't include Mu-So or Statement here as they post date my time at the factory and wrt the Mu-So may well be a different model anyway) - this covers not just costs of labour and materials but also R&D, marketing, and everything else that keeps the lights on and gives Naim the ability to invest in the future.  There's certainly no extra "Speculative" % margin piled on to the NAC552.

As to the cost, well, you can analyse the cost of any hifi and come to the conclusion that against your phone and a  pair of earbuds it's unnecessary or costs too much.  Rather than think of the cost or the price, consider the value, to you personally and nobody else.  If you love music, have a great collection and want to hear it at its best during the limited time you have, then what price is that?  We all have an idea of an answer and it will be different for everyone. 

An extremly precise statement.
Naim is all about "Go Deeper..."

MangoMonkey posted:

not sure if it's super smart to have all those funds tied into the 552. Thinking of letting it go. The nac272/555/300 comes fairly close to the nds/555/552/300 - close enough at any rate.

thoughts?

dont really need the funds - but the 20K will be worth 100K in 20yrs... 

or 

the 20K, as part of a down payment for a second home, will be worth a hell of lot more due to leverage...

what does it mean to be able to 'afford' something?

Interesting question.  As I was recently contemplating system upgrades, one of the options was selling my NDX and buying a 272.  In the end I decided that since I'd purchased the NDX new, and was completely happy with it, to keep the NDX and buy a SuperNait 2, rather than sticking with a seperate pre and poweramp (non-Naim) combo and replacing that with a Naim pre and power amp combo.  I didn't want to sell my NDX and take the depreciation hit.

I also loved the SuperNait 2, of course, and auditioned it extensively before purchasing.  But I made the decision not to purchase the 272 before buying the SuperNait 2.  Now, if I hadn't already purchased the NDX, I probably would have bought the 272, certainly auditioned it.  But that's another discussion. 

Anyway, my perspective is you should keep your 552, it doesn't sound like you need the money.  The reality is that we could all spend less on Hifi and/or music and do something else with it.  Sometimes I look at all of my records and CDs and think "wow, I could have purchased really high end hifi if I hadn't bought all this music".  But then what would I have listened to for the last 30+ years that I've been actively buying music?

I also agree with those who've commented that most people get plenty of musical enjoyment without the best equipment.  But then, we're not most people. 

Jeff

I think 20 large is pretty optimistic. Turn the volume up to 11 and enjoy!