Bitcoin

steved posted:

I used to think there was something of the "Emperors New Clothes"  in the whole Bitcoin thing. Despite the extremely erudite postings by members in this thread, I readily admit I still don't properly understand it (and yes I accept that says more about my intelligence than yours)! However I was mildly amused to see the story in the Business Section of the BBC website...........

Bitcoin fell more than 10% on Wednesday as investors sold the cryptocurrency following a warning by JPMorgan chief executive Jamie Dimon that it "is a fraud" and will eventually "blow up".

I'm patently not the only one in the doubters camp.

Steve D

I doubt Jamie Dimon's statement holds enough weight with Bitcoin holders/traders to cause a 10% drop in price. [Unless JPMorgan was actively trading the market and took seriously his "if you are trading Bitcoin you will be fired."] More likely causes are the "China issue" and the fact that the price of Bitcoin has > doubled in a month. A correction was going to happen at some point. Goldman Sachs predicted a $3,700 price for BTC by end of year and BTC is now still above that value.

[Also Mr. Dimon has a history of making inflammatory statements regarding Bitcoin over the years]

Mr. Dimon would know a fraud when he sees it. Under his leadership, Chase tried to cover up their $5-6 Billion loss from a "rogue trader" and paid a $13 Billion fine for its MBS business. Just drops in the bucket for a firm that reported $24 billion net income last year.

Does Mr. Dimon have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo? His compensation is > $28,000,000 / year. Also, despite never doing anything but working as a banking executive, he has accumulated a net worth of $1.1 billion. Clearly he believes that banks are the "end all and be all" of the global economy. It is unlikely that he would ever say anything positive about a technology that could threaten the viability of banks' "death-grip on humanity."

Setting aside Mr. Dimon and just focusing on the "is a fraud" and "blow up"....

Fraud = wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain

How can Bitcoin be considered a fraud? Where is the "deception"?  Unlike the legitimately fraudulent MBS securities his company apparently peddled, Bitcoin is open and transparent. When you buy a bitcoin you "can" know exactly what you are buying. [That does not prevent people from buying who are ignorant of the facts.] When you buy a bitcoin you own a bitcoin. You get nothing more and nothing less. Nobody can transact more bitcoins than they possess. [There are some exchanges that allow leveraged trading but that is not a property of bitcoin.] This can be easily verified by looking at the source code.

If we make the assumption that bitcoin is a fraud, we then are saying it was created with the intention of deceiving people for some persons/organizations gain. If this is true then this would likely rank as the most successful con in history. This person did the following to make this happen:

Conceived of the valuable technology known as Blockchain, Spent 2 years designing/writing the initial program, gave all his work away for free, convinced 1,000's of people to run the application when bitcoins were worthless, convinced people to buy/sell bitcoins for $.001, Convinced 10,000's of people to mine coins, convinced people to put 100's millions of USD into mining equipment driving the difficulty from 1 - >600,000,000,000 in a few years....

All of these things [and more] were necessary for bitcoin to reach the value it has today. Still... the creator of bitcoin has $4,000,000,000 in bitcoin that have never been spent. How far would the con have to grow before the payday? Is it even conceivable that a fraud of this epic proportion would ever exist given the unlikely nature of its growth/success? [Personally I believe Satoshi had no clue how big and fast bitcoin would grow.] So the "financial gain" aspect seems unlikely given the amount of work required and the $ amount "on the table". Personal gain? Only Satoshi knows his real identity.

Will bitcoin "blow up"? Bitcoin has been declared dead by the "MSM" >270x over the years. Bitcoin price in usd [the sole focus of "bankers"] will continue a course with significant volatility. Most people in this space understand the "risks" involved. MSM almost appears tasked with delegitimizing bitcoin to scare away potential investors. Have you ever seen MSM present an examination of bitcoin giving a detailed explanation of how it works and its benefits? 

The only "blow up" that will happen to bitcoin is the "massive price appreciation over the next 10 years".

Print that!

At the end of the day.... I suspect Mr. Dimon has spent 0 time learning about bitcoin. Why would he? He sits atop one of the worlds largest banks that thrives, like most banks, by draining the lifeblood from the masses. Even if some people listen to his ramblings, nothing can stop bitcoin in the long-term.

Adam Meredith posted:

Just so long as you're confident.

No real need to get so ad hominem. 

The real issue is the person not his statements. We wouldn't even have this exchange if he were some "average joe". [Plenty of average Joe's call Bitcoin a scam and nobody cares.] Mr. Dimon's position as one of our "banker overlords" gives him a huge audience so his comments should be evaluated, at least partially, by his background and possible motivations.

I find it laughable that bankers try to defame Bitcoin when they continue to actively participate in the greatest fraud in history. They all should be terrified by the impending deconstruction of the "legacy" banking system.

The only way Bitcoin fails is if bankers sabotage the project. Of course their intervention will signal the true strength of decentralized currency and will escalate its usd price => it won't die but become bigger.

I love seeing bankers panic as they lose their absolute power over wealth.

Fascinating thread and I'm tempted to invest a little. How/ where do you buy cryptocurrency?

I wouldn't at the moment... the China situation has destabilised the market... give it a few days and see where things are at

elkman70 posted:

Fascinating thread and I'm tempted to invest a little. How/ where do you buy cryptocurrency?

Coinbase.com/ GDAX.com should allow you to buy via EUR/USD/GBP(?). 

The market is in the process of a significant correction. Bitcoin hit 5,000 USD and fell back to 3,100 USD yesterday but is up to $3,578.88 as I type. Had I any USD in my account, I would have bought last night @ $3,100. Is this a "sale" price or a "bull trap"? I wish i knew. If you are able to handle the volatility, and plan to hold over longish term then any price is a good entry point for bitcoin. You can buy as little as $1 worth of bitcoin with 0 fees at GDAX.com. Buying a bit every day\week\fortnight usually gives you a basis closer to the average vs a lump sum investment.

Owning cryptocurrencies is a very interesting experience. It feels a bit like being a pirate with a secret map to your buried treasure chest. It also feels a bit like you finally deciphered a "real treasure map" and have just embarked on a multi-year quest to dig up the booty.

Thanks Kevin

I am not in the crypto market at present, but when a PoS like Jamie Dimon calls it a "fraud", you can guarantee it isn't. He is protecting himself in the most self-serving manner that can be. That SOB should be nowhere else but a cell in a federal prison. As a writer I follow puts it:

"Well, here’s a quick question for you, Mr. Dimon: which words/phrases are associated with you and your employer, J.P. Morgan Chase?

Looting, pillage, rapacious, exploitative, only saved from collapse by massive intervention by the Federal Reserve, the source of rising wealth inequality, crony capitalism, privatized profits-socialized losses, low interest rates = gift from savers to banks, bloviating overpaid C.E.O., propaganda favoring the financial elite, tool of the top .01%, destroyer of democracy, financial fraud goes unpunished, free money for financiers, debt-serfdom, produces nothing of value to society or the bottom 99.5%.

Jamie, if you answered "all of them," you're correct."

The only reason that scumbag has a soapbox from which he can bloviate is the Federal Reserve saved him and his looting machine (bank) from well-deserved oblivion in 2008-09. That, and the unprecedented, coordinated campaign by global central banks to buy trillions of dollars of bonds and stocks. Of course, the US "Justice" Dept never laid a glove on him or his ilk.

Once exchange-traded funds (ETFs) based on direct ownership of BTC are widely available, this opens the door wider to both institutional and mom-and-pop investors.

So back to Jamie Dimon: if he wants us to listen to his ranting about bitcoin as "financial genius," first let's see him predict the timing of the crash that takes down his parasitic bank.

If he pull that off with amazing accuracy, then maybe we'll pay attention to his "prediction" about cryptocurrencies.

Bitcoin appears to be consolidating in the $3,850 - $4,000 price. Could be some more FUD from China in next month.

If this doesn't scare the bejeebers out of you, then I don't know what will:

I am sorry, but that is seriously effed-up...and almost certainly ain't gonna end well. From the same Deutsche Bank report, they point out that if you add in the growth of government debts of the US, EU, Japan, and UK, the total amount of stimulus since the 2008 crisis is $34 trillion.

Of course, nobody can know when the next crisis will come, and even though odds are extremely high, perhaps somehow it won't.

One analyst I follow who gets to sit with the insiders not infrequently sees the central banks co-opting cryptocurrencies:

"Governments don’t like competition especially when it comes to money. Governments know they cannot stop blockchain, in fact they don’t want to. What they want is to control it using powers of regulation, taxation, and investigation and ultimately more coercive powers including arrest and imprisonment of individuals who refuse to obey government mandates with regard to blockchain.

Kevin Richardson posted:

Bitcoin appears to be consolidating in the $3,850 - $4,000 price. Could be some more FUD from China in next month.

I've been following the Bitcoin price for the past 6 weeks.  It's behaviour does mirror what happened in 2000. It rises slowly, but retreats very fast. More bearish than bullish. Good news doesn't have much effect, but bad news hits hard. I see it hitting $2,500 before any substantial rises or it could be the slow drip down as the 2000 bubble.

Interesting to see where it goes.

count.d posted:

Kevin Richardson posted:

Bitcoin appears to be consolidating in the $3,850 - $4,000 price. Could be some more FUD from China in next month.

I've been following the Bitcoin price for the past 6 weeks.  It's behaviour does mirror what happened in 2000. It rises slowly, but retreats very fast. More bearish than bullish. Good news doesn't have much effect, but bad news hits hard. I see it hitting $2,500 before any substantial rises or it could be the slow drip down as the 2000 bubble.

Interesting to see where it goes.

So many components to the recent price action. The FUD/news from China will likely dampen bullish sentiment for the near term. Even a pullback to $2,500 is not "horrible" considering it was only $700 last September. I'd be more concerned if it dropped under $2,000. Might happen.

Long term China will get back into the game.  If they don't then Japan and South Korea will likely emerge as leaders.

If this were a bubble then we should see prices drop to the 1 year moving average around 1,400.

Unlike the dot com bubble Bitcoin has no expenses so it can continue to function even at sub 1,000$ price. 

Like I said this isn't going to be a straight line up. I recommend anybody getting into Bitcoin buy small amounts weekly.

These are the risks we take when entering an emerging market at such an early stage.  Just stick with a sustainable investment plan.

I believe a 50%+ price retraction will bring in new investors looking for a good entry point. I suspect there are 1,000's of buy orders just under 3k and is a major support. The Chinese exchanges have until end of month to suspend operations. If we can stay above 3k then probably we won't see a substantial dip into the 2ks.

DrMark posted:

If this doesn't scare the bejeebers out of you, then I don't know what will:

I am sorry, but that is seriously effed-up...and almost certainly ain't gonna end well. From the same Deutsche Bank report, they point out that if you add in the growth of government debts of the US, EU, Japan, and UK, the total amount of stimulus since the 2008 crisis is $34 trillion.

Of course, nobody can know when the next crisis will come, and even though odds are extremely high, perhaps somehow it won't.

One analyst I follow who gets to sit with the insiders not infrequently sees the central banks co-opting cryptocurrencies:

"Governments don’t like competition especially when it comes to money. Governments know they cannot stop blockchain, in fact they don’t want to. What they want is to control it using powers of regulation, taxation, and investigation and ultimately more coercive powers including arrest and imprisonment of individuals who refuse to obey government mandates with regard to blockchain.

Blockchain does not exist in the ether (despite the name of one cryptocurrency) and it does not reside on Mars. Blockchain depends on critical infrastructure including servers, telecommunications networks, the banking system, and the power grid, all of which are subject to government control.

A group of major companies, all regulated by government, have announced a joint effort to develop an open-source blockchain as a uniform standard for all blockchain applications. The group includes JPMorgan, Wells Fargo, State Street, SWIFT, Cisco, Accenture, the London Stock Exchange and Mitsubishi UFJ Financial.

That’s not exactly five guys in hoodies working in a garage. That’s a sign of the corporate-state consortium taking over.

An elite U.S. legal institution called the Uniform Law Commission, that proposes model laws intended for adoption in all fifty states, has released its latest proposal called the “Uniform Regulation of Virtual Currency Businesses Act.”

This new law will not only provide a regulatory scheme for state regulators, but will also be a platform for litigation by private plaintiffs and class action lawyers seeking recourse against real or imagined abuses by digital coin exchanges and facilities. Once litigation begins, anonymity is the first casualty.

Consider the following additional developments:

On August 1, 2017, the SEC announced “Guidance on Regulation of Initial Coin Offerings,” the first step toward requiring fundraising through blockchain-based tokens to register with the government.

On August 1, 2017, the World Economic Forum, host body to the Davos conference of global super-elites, published a paper entitled “Four reasons to question the hype around blockchain.”

On August 7, 2017, China announced they will begin using blockchain to collect taxes and issue “electronic invoices” to citizens there.

Perhaps most portentously, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) has weighed in. In a special report dated June 2017, the IMF had this to say about blockchain:

“Distributed ledger technology (DLT), in particular, could spur change in the financial sector… DLT can be categorized as “permissionless” or “permissioned” depending on who can participate in the consensus-driven validation process.

These open schemes (that underlie Bitcoin, for instance) could be very disruptive if successfully implemented. By contrast, in permissioned DLTs, the validation process is controlled by a pre-selected group of participants (“consortium”) or managed by one organization (“fully-private”), and thus serve more as a common communications platform.” (emphasis added).

IMF releases require expert translation because they are never written in plain English, and the real meaning is always hidden between the lines. But, the thrust of this report language is clear:

The IMF favors “permissioned” systems over “open schemes.” The IMF also favors control by a “pre-selected group of participants” or “one organization,” rather than allowing “anyone” to participate.

These and other developments all point toward an elite group including the IMF, JPMorgan, the Davos crowd, the IRS, SEC, and other agencies converging to shut down the existing free-wheeling blockchain ecosphere, and replace it with a “permissioned” system under “consortium” control.

Big Brother is coming to the blockchain."

 

A private Blockchain may gain traction within the banking sector. In fact I believe they will do this.

The problem with that consortium is that it is completely dominated by Western interests. I'm convinced that China\Russia aren't going to just go along with  JPMorgan. China will do just about anything to kill USD hegemony.

If the JPMorgans of the world kill Bitcoin then at least we will see that freedom is an illusion.

Kevin, probably like you, I've very closely followed stocks, etc. since 2000. I have them on my screen ticking away every hour of the day for 17 years. This may be well less than your experience, but I've made a fair amount, lost a bit and learnt a lot.

The most important thing I've learnt is not to be emotionally involved, good or bad and certainly don't rationalise why something rises or falls. Markets used to rise on Greenspan's rate hikes, because that meant the economy was doing well, or markets fell because that meant possible .............. Suddenly, no one cared or listened to what the Fed said, the markets just rallied on any news, because human instinct said buy. China's effect on Bitcoin should be minimal. People run when they're scared, just like 2000.

I really don't have the time to right something really constructive, but my hunch is that the Bitcoin is behaving like it's going to fall substantially and find it hard to break new highs. As I say, it's fun following this and you've started a great thread. 

Looks like Amazon might start accepting Bitcoin as currency before too long.... slowly but shortly it's happening... and the first atomic transaction apparently took place between Litecoin and Bitcoin blockchains yesterday.... a major step forward in the development of the technology for currency transactions...

Or maybe they'll create their own currency, which is then the one to invest in and not Bitcoin?

It's possible, however if they develop anything it's more likely is a private loyalty token blockchain perhaps linked to Prime etc, a bit like Burger King have done in Russia... which the authorities seemingly have just recently confused it as a currency 

I think that is how we will see cryptos being initially adopted for the masses, rather than initially being used as a formal mainstream currency alone and all the regulation associated with that, if you like a 21st century version of Green-shield stamps, or Nectar points or Tesco Clubcard points... and yes might have a fixed or varying value of its own that could be tradable within a private ecosystem of traders, and in which case becomes a private currency, kind of like private IOU tokens.

Atomic transactions of participating blockchain technologies make token exchange more viable (by significantly reducing exchange costs/commissions)...and promotes less universal reliance on a particular altcoin/blockchain tech.

DrMark posted:

Blockchain does not exist in the ether (despite the name of one cryptocurrency) and it does not reside on Mars. Blockchain depends on critical infrastructure including servers, telecommunications networks, the banking system, and the power grid, all of which are subject to government control

Yes and no.... blockchain relies on an integrity of a ledger file - and the the more widespread and adopted  a crypto is and the more active nodes it has the more copies of this identical ledger exist in the world... the technology to protect the integrity of the block chain and its transactions is based on the cryptography algorithms that are the cornerstone of our 21st century life for a good proportion of the world who use either the internet, banking, mobile phones, digital TV, credit/debit cards etc

Most crypto currencies are distributed, and the only infrastructure the cryptos rely to undertake transactions are neighbouring nodes to validate the transaction and the internet, or private network. Further these nodes simply needed to be on the internet and range from a PC in a kid's mini personal computer somewhere in the world to a SuperComputer somewhere underneath Mojave Desert. ..

The reason large supercomputer nodes exist is to increase the chance of creating a new chain on the blockchain and being rewarded for it and increasing the speed of transactions... however that kid's mini personal computer can also find a new block chain.. however with all the big supercomputers there the chance becomes smaller and smaller to non existent - remove those big super computers and it changes... also there are more efficient cryptos compared to Bitcoin such as Litecoin and so the balance of usage between cryptos could change dependent on the global environment.

So if the world came under some unitarian totalitarian rule and the internet was switched off... then transactions would be restricted to probably a then illegal private network.. but could still take place. Even if that was somehow totally eliminated in the world everywhere... the value of the crypto currency would be frozen... its only then if every single copy of the multitude of electronic ledger files were destroyed globally would the value be lost for ever... I suspect however we are more likely to be wiped out by an earth bound asteroid than that happen...

There is no governmental control on blockchain -- at best the government can block internet access to nodes on the internet at national gateways and regulate and or eliminate exchanges which convert government fiat to crypto..

In my professional world I am aware of internet service provider tools that continue to be developed to trace transactions globally on Bitcoin at a network rather than ledger basis as well as other web based transactions - and so it is not that anonymous anymore in terms of usage. However there are alt coins such as Zcash that aim to be more anonymous - and they are harder to trace, but Zcash is not currently widely adopted 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

DrMark posted:

Blockchain does not exist in the ether (despite the name of one cryptocurrency) and it does not reside on Mars. Blockchain depends on critical infrastructure including servers, telecommunications networks, the banking system, and the power grid, all of which are subject to government control

Yes and no.... blockchain relies on an integrity of a ledger file - and the the more widespread and adopted  a crypto is and the more active nodes it has the more copies of this identical ledger exist in the world... the technology to protect the integrity of the block chain and its transactions is based on the cryptography algorithms that are the cornerstone of our 21st century life for a good proportion of the world who use either the internet, banking, mobile phones, digital TV, credit/debit cards etc

Most crypto currencies are distributed, and the only infrastructure the cryptos rely to undertake transactions are neighbouring nodes to validate the transaction and the internet, or private network. Further these nodes simply needed to be on the internet and range from a PC in a kid's mini personal computer somewhere in the world to a SuperComputer somewhere underneath Mojave Desert. ..

The reason large supercomputer nodes exist is to increase the chance of creating a new chain on the blockchain and being rewarded for it and increasing the speed of transactions... however that kid's mini personal computer can also find a new block chain.. however with all the big supercomputers there the chance becomes smaller and smaller to non existent - remove those big super computers and it changes... also there are more efficient cryptos compared to Bitcoin such as Litecoin and so the balance of usage between cryptos could change dependent on the global environment.

So if the world came under some unitarian totalitarian rule and the internet was switched off... then transactions would be restricted to probably a then illegal private network.. but could still take place. Even if that was somehow totally eliminated in the world everywhere... the value of the crypto currency would be frozen... its only then if every single copy of the multitude of electronic ledger files were destroyed globally would the value be lost for ever... I suspect however we are more likely to be wiped out by an earth bound asteroid than that happen...

There is no governmental control on blockchain -- at best the government can block internet access to nodes on the internet at national gateways and regulate and or eliminate exchanges which convert government fiat to crypto..

In my professional world I am aware of internet service provider tools that continue to be developed to trace transactions globally on Bitcoin at a network rather than ledger basis as well as other web based transactions - and so it is not that anonymous anymore in terms of usage. However there are alt coins such as Zcash that aim to be more anonymous - and they are harder to trace, but Zcash is not currently widely adopted 

You might be interested to hear that a company called Blockstream has a network of private satellites which will be used for receiving Bitcoin transactions without using the internet.

Now the gvt needs to also take out a bunch of satellites in addition to the internet if they want to kill Bitcoin.

Interesting second guessing on short term prices with the first major China exchange closure looming at the end of the month... it looks however that Korea and Japan have not wasted time filling the vacuum being created by China.. hence fascinating to see what happens..

Also fascinating reading about how cryptos are now being used in countries like Zimbabwe to help those that need to make larger purchases such as for cars etc given the limitations of regular currency... and as such the demand for cryptos outstrips supply in the region so there are  local price premiums. (Compared to US$)

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Interesting second guessing on short term prices with the first major China exchange closure looming at the end of the month... it looks however that Korea and Japan have not wasted time filling the vacuum being created by China.. hence fascinating to see what happens..

Also fascinating reading about how cryptos are now being used in countries like Zimbabwe to help those that need to make larger purchases such as for cars etc given the limitations of regular currency... and as such the demand for cryptos outstrips supply in the region so there are  local price premiums. (Compared to US$)

My guess is China will not want to be sitting on the sidelines and will quickly introduce regulations for exchanges / ICOs. They hate USD hegemony and will do everything within their power to weaken the status quo. I can't remember if I mentioned this here but... China is introducing a new OIL futures contract that settles in a "gold backed" Yaun. Not sure how successful this will be but if the world can ever buy oil in a currency other than USD.... Well USD will tank and gold/Cryptocurrency will skyrocket. [The gold backed Yaun only works when gold = $64,000/ozt] So gold might not be as dead as I thought.

Whatever happens in Bitcoin/gold the USD has a very poor prognosis.

I read that Bitcoin traded for $7,200 in Zimbabwe which shows its tremendous upside potential. What will the USD price = when 7.5% of Americans are actively investing? 

Kevin, what is your view of the BTC fork... seems to be dividin* opinion big time in the BTC community.... can’t help thinking all this is not good for Bitcoin..

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Kevin, what is your view of the BTC fork... seems to be dividin* opinion big time in the BTC community.... can’t help thinking all this is not good for Bitcoin..

Not overly concerned re the "Bitcoin Gold" fork. We had the "Bitcoin Cash" fork back in August with no disruption and significant price appreciation for Bitcoin. If you have your private key then you'll get your share of any hard fork. I'm just going to hold mine. If any hard fork becomes "Bitcoin" then it just means the protocol has improved in a manner making mass adoption more likely.

We may have 10 forks in the next 20 years. Most will fail. The market will eventually settle on a winner. 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Kevin, what is your view of the BTC fork... seems to be dividin* opinion big time in the BTC community.... can’t help thinking all this is not good for Bitcoin..

Wait... You talking about the "Bitcoin Gold" or SegWit2x fork?

I was talking mostly generally - but I guess was somewhat thinking of  the SegWit2x technology - which I think technically is good. However my point was about the tribal factions that appear to swirl around the Bitcoin community perhaps because of the vested interests in secondary functions from the crypto such as mining etc rather than the crypto itself  and these factions  are largely absent from the Alt coins.... although Ethereum did have a notable exception..

I guess one observation is that as Bitcoin becomes somewhat bloated and relatively stilted because of the vested interests it does give a demand to Altcoins and does stop Bitcoin from becoming  too dominant which is a good thing... although some would argue Bitcoin is too dominant already. I only keep a small amount of Bitcoin for 'amusement' and I use it and Ethereum as crytpo-currency as they seem relatively widely adopted for purchasing services- although Bitcoin is sloooow, however I invest using other crypto.

One thing I have learnt to do though is use market making exchanges so one can convert between certain cryptos as well cryptos and fiat at no cost... that makes a huge difference, albeit the regulatory security authentication demands get more involved when transferring this way to and from fiat.. I guess that is to stop money laundering etc which is a good thing...

On that note I was reading that high denomination fiat currency notes are significantly more encouraging to money laundering and illegal activity compared to Cryptos - don't see too much interest in reducing fiat demonisation sizes around the world - though to be fair it is one reason why the Bank of England so I understand has not increased the £50 note size.... enough of my ramblings....

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I was talking mostly generally - but I guess was somewhat thinking of  the SegWit2x technology - which I think technically is good. However my point was about the tribal factions that appear to swirl around the Bitcoin community perhaps because of the vested interests in secondary functions from the crypto such as mining etc rather than the crypto itself  and these factions  are largely absent from the Alt coins.... although Ethereum did have a notable exception..

I guess one observation is that as Bitcoin becomes somewhat bloated and relatively stilted because of the vested interests it does give a demand to Altcoins and does stop Bitcoin from becoming  too dominant which is a good thing... although some would argue Bitcoin is too dominant already. I only keep a small amount of Bitcoin for 'amusement' and I use it and Ethereum as crytpo-currency as they seem relatively widely adopted for purchasing services- although Bitcoin is sloooow, however I invest using other crypto.

One thing I have learnt to do though is use market making exchanges so one can convert between certain cryptos as well cryptos and fiat at no cost... that makes a huge difference, albeit the regulatory security authentication demands get more involved when transferring this way to and from fiat.. I guess that is to stop money laundering etc which is a good thing...

On that note I was reading that high denomination fiat currency notes are significantly more encouraging to money laundering and illegal activity compared to Cryptos - don't see too much interest in reducing fiat demonisation sizes around the world - though to be fair it is one reason why the Bank of England so I understand has not increased the £50 note size.... enough of my ramblings....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhxNwQTn2fY