Smart Meters, again!

I had some fitted a couple of years ago never noticed any change in my Naim system but quite frankly I wouldn't bother a complete waste of time.

Yes - SQ aside (shouldn't be any problems), I'd wait until the dust settles. The Government / Energy industry is rushing to meet a target, the system as a whole is not totally fit for purpose and it seems like some of the 'installers' shouldn't be let loose on mains wiring or gas... 

Real waste of time other than not having to read the meter that often. If you cannot work out , the kettle, oven,plasma TVs etc are using the power......., and for gas, it's the same turn the thermostat down, or pay up.

The UK smart meter system shouldn't have any effect on SQ. The signalling inside the house is zigbee in the 2.4 GHz band and the signalling back to the energy networks is by a wireless system, the type of which depends where you live, but anyway there is no signalling over the mains electricity system itself.

best

David

Having looked into this - personally and professionally - it is very unlikely smart metering will affect your SQ. Many smart meters use GSM to send telemetry data back - and the new generation that will be using LoRa use very very low power on a distributed mesh environment over an extended urban / semi urban area to transmit data.

Internally in the house Zigbee is often used to connect devices together - such as smart display to smart meters - again Zigbee a personal local area network technology and is ultra low power and frequency hops around the 2.4GHz ISM band used for Wifi. Naim are now also using Zigbee in their new remote controls for the new Unit products - so I can deduce that they are happy that does not affect SQ and is far less impactful than regular Wifi that may be in your house

Simon

I've heard reports of shoddy work by smart meter installers, with poor training, causing electrical faults and a serious fire.

http://stopsmartmeters.org.uk/...refuse-smart-meters/

I've not yet worked out what the primary driver/benefit for these devices is for me as a householder.

As recorded above, on the basis a household is energy-savvy, then I'm failing to see a material benefit aside from the energyco's being able to read meters remotely  - - even then I assume they may need to check the meter/domestic installation every now and again (fraud et al). It smells politically driven to me...and it seems this overall scheme could add materially to our bills(?) given the costs of the roll-out etc.

I know through some industry sources that the installation process can be far from straightforward e.g. the metering being unable to 'talk' through walls in some cases (esp. in the likes of Victorian and Edwardian houses, where incoming services are often in basements).  And all the installations are being done by contractors, so complaints and issues arising may not be straightforward to resolve. I also understand there are concerns about switching suppliers in the mix too, once you have changed over.

Here's another smart meter safety link - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programme...-meter-installations

Thanks all for comments so far, I am aware of the concerns re the safety issues with installers and the rush to meet targets as has been exposed by the BBC Watchdog.

My interest here is concerned with its effect or otherwise on SQ and in this context the findings if any of forum contributors who have switched to smart meters.

Happy Listener posted:

I've not yet worked out what the primary driver/benefit for these devices is for me as a householder.

As recorded above, on the basis a household is energy-savvy, then I'm failing to see a material benefit aside from the energyco's being able to read meters remotely  - - even then I assume they may need to check the meter/domestic installation every now and again (fraud et al). It smells politically driven to me...and it seems this overall scheme could add materially to our bills(?) given the costs of the roll-out etc.

I know through some industry sources that the installation process can be far from straightforward e.g. the metering being unable to 'talk' through walls in some cases (esp. in the likes of Victorian and Edwardian houses, where incoming services are often in basements).  And all the installations are being done by contractors, so complaints and issues arising may not be straightforward to resolve. I also understand there are concerns about switching suppliers in the mix too, once you have changed over.

I think the real benefit to householders will come when enough smart meters have been installed that the energy companies start to offer smart tariffs, ie tariffs that reflect demand for energy at the time in half hour slots. In-home energy management systems will be able to schedule when you use electricity (in particular) for appliances where the use isn't time-critical and will be an important part of how electricity demand on the grid can be managed when many people have electric cars that need charging overnight.

I don't think there will be any need at all for the energy companies to check the installation for fraud unless someone's energy usage declines unexpectedly, compared with their usage history and usage by similar properties in that postcode. The smart meters will however help people on pre-payment tariffs to see how much energy credit they have left and also save a lot of elderly and infirm customers from having to crawl into the cupboard under the stairs to top their meters up (this is a real problem, though not I imagine to anyone who owns Naim equipment!)

Its certainly true that some installations cannot be satisfactorily done with a 2.4 GHz home network and the industry is looking at alternatives to that, including using 868 MHz which has greater in-house range. In high-rise buildings there may be a need to use Powerline-type systems as, for example, gas meters are often in the basement and in-home displays aren't.

As the householder's contract is with the energy supplier, in the case of an installation that leaves the customer dissatisfied, there is no reason why their use of contractors should make any difference at all to getting the issue resolved. All the utilities in the UK make extensive use of contractors. It is how things are done these days.

And regarding switching suppliers, there is some confusion about this, but it's quite straightforward. Today if you take a smart meter from an energy supplier it will be a SMETS1 meter and switching supplier will often involve a change of meter or the loss of the smart capability, but there are two things happening to change that. Soon energy suppliers will fit SMETS2 meters that do allow you to change supplier any time you like, including famously "midnight on Christmas Day" if you want. And all of the existing SMETS1 meters will either be "enrolled" into the same data network (the DCC) so that smart switching is enabled or Ofgem will require them to be swapped out by the energy supplier for SMETS2 meters.

Anyway, none of this has anything to do with SQ, which was the OP's concern.

best

David

All good points David. There are a lot of future benefits to Smart metering and an overall smarter Grid, especially with the increase in micro generation and the inevitable rise of the electric car. The problem at the moment is that the public don't have a lot of trust in energy suppliers and a less than smooth roll out won't help.  

That's  the nice thing about living in the sticks- no Smart anything. 1960s overhead lines, a water meter yet the pipes either side and up and down the lane leak like sieves. Naff broadband, septic tanks and LPG - oh and naff mobile signal. But the views are yo die for

Ahh smart metering can equally help us  in the sticks, as long as you have at least one GSM  network ... after all it is used to signal when our village communal septic needs emptying to the septic tank contractor, but no water metering here.. and I have worked out our house is served by at least two shared supplies without independent master utility stopcock. ... 

Ah - no GSM, just carrier pidgeons so no smart thingy for me then Oooops  R3 streaming just dropped out so daughter must me doing the social media thingy. For me that's a pie and a pint in the local. So much for the BBC concert sound stream - every milking parlour in the area would probably collapse if I tried that 

Not one single roaming mobile network  yet you have basic broadband? ... assuming you are not in a hollow  that must narrow you down  

They're not compulsory and I was even given an opt out about receiving emails about them (Oppo). I can't see a benefit to me at the moment so will hapily ignore them. 

I think the only effect on sound you may have if a smart meter is fitted is that you may not have a system or house to come back too especially with the shoddy installs that are taking place.

YTS installers out there. Beware!!! 

Indeed I did decline as well, as we had only fairly recently had a new electronic meter put in.. and in our house the meter is inside..... and wasn't happy about the GSM signal from the meter of which I would have no control over... 

HiFiman posted:

I think the only effect on sound you may have if a smart meter is fitted is that you may not have a system or house to come back too especially with the shoddy installs that are taking place.

YTS installers out there. Beware!!! 

I'm sorry to say this, but this is complete nonsense. The installers have by law to be properly trained.

There is as YET142 says no compulsion to have a smart meter. The costs will be there in the tariffs anyway so you will pay for it whether you have one or not.

And in the end I expect that it will be like paying for a phone connection with or without direct debit - you don't have to agree, but it will be more expensive for you if you don't.

Anyway still no effect on SQ!

This is going rather off-topic, but six months ago I had a smart water meter fitted. It took Thames Water that long to sort out their internal accounting, but when eventually they did, I got a bill that said I was £280 in credit. So that's several hundred pounds a year I will save compared with the previous fixed rate based on rateable value. And no effect on SQ either.....

best

David

The media reports about sub standard installs is blown out of proportion.   I don't doubt there have been some failures as reported,  but they are not balanced by any reports on the countless others that have been done to the required standard.   I was particularly impressed by my installer's skill & training level & the attention to detail in following & recording the required processes.  My installer was Scottish Powers smart meter contractor Lowri Beck.   

There is no affect on SQ,  the ZigBee signal is so weak it doesn't reach from the garage to where we would ideally like the meter to be. The Naim lives at the opposite side of the house & two more brick walls away.   The GSM data feed normally runs late night, is done one a month - I have an option to go to GSM upload daily (no thanks) - & takes about 30 seconds.

Would I choose to have it installed based on what I know now,  yes,  we are paying for it anyhow.   However I would now wait until the 2nd generation versions come out at the end of 2017.

Re David's Thames Water meter:  I've had one for numbers of years - a real cost savings reducing my water bill by almost 2/3rds.  Anyhow it plodded on for a few years with more or less the same litres used on each bill,  then it shot up to double for no reason.  I contacted TW who sent a man out & ran some tests & yes we had a leak after the meter.  Remembering the repair costs if the leak is on my property is down to me - 20m block brick drive,  concrete garage floor = oh err !!!   Men in truck arrived & dug up the meter & thankfully the leak was part of the meter installation.   But the original meter installers bodge up had to be seen to be believed,  the TW men could not believe it,  lots of photos & they took it away to show HQ.      TW corrected the billing increase & the whole thing from 1st report to bill credit took less than a month.

In my situation the smart meter, if I was to agree to have one would be indoors only a few feet away from my Naim system and in the same room, however I am less concerned with the WiFi aspect of a smart meter rather more the possibility of any mains pollution from the device. Especially as I have my incoming mains supply split after the meter into two separate consumer units, one for the domestic supply one dedicated to the HiFi. Obviously any potentially polluting device, in this case a smart meter, introduced to the mains before the consumer unit could negate some of the gains achieved from having a dedicated consumer unit for the HiFi.

As for overblown media reports on sub standard installs. Any shoddy installation that results in a dangerous risk of electrocution and/or homes destroyed by fire is one too many. This does appear to be partially politically motivated with a government supported roll out and deadline of 2020 that the industry is not sufficiently resourced to meet. Hence the rush by the industry to recruit installers, I have seen advertisements in my local paper for installers, no experience necessary training will be given. The BBC Watchdog has done a good job of exposing this and proper qualified industry insiders have blown whistles that the training is inadequate, installations are not being properly inspected and signed off under regulations, and the current limited number of installers are being put under pressure. The BBC repeatedly asked for the government energy minister to appear on the programme who repeatedly declined. I understand that the situation is now of such serious concern that the shadow energy minister is to take action.

I thought the biggest problem is that if they are still installing smets1 meters they are likely to revert back to dumb meters when you switch supplier. The later smets2 meters solve this problem but I’m not sure they are available yet.

Dreadatthecontrols posted:

In my situation the smart meter, if I was to agree to have one would be indoors only a few feet away from my Naim system and in the same room, however I am less concerned with the WiFi aspect of a smart meter rather more the possibility of any mains pollution from the device. Especially as I have my incoming mains supply split after the meter into two separate consumer units, one for the domestic supply one dedicated to the HiFi. Obviously any potentially polluting device, in this case a smart meter, introduced to the mains before the consumer unit could negate some of the gains achieved from having a dedicated consumer unit for the HiFi.

As for overblown media reports on sub standard installs. Any shoddy installation that results in a dangerous risk of electrocution and/or homes destroyed by fire is one too many. This does appear to be partially politically motivated with a government supported roll out and deadline of 2020 that the industry is not sufficiently resourced to meet. Hence the rush by the industry to recruit installers, I have seen advertisements in my local paper for installers, no experience necessary training will be given. The BBC Watchdog has done a good job of exposing this and proper qualified industry insiders have blown whistles that the training is inadequate, installations are not being properly inspected and signed off under regulations, and the current limited number of installers are being put under pressure. The BBC repeatedly asked for the government energy minister to appear on the programme who repeatedly declined. I understand that the situation is now of such serious concern that the shadow energy minister is to take action.

There is no wifi aspect to UK smart meters.

And there is no reason why they should add anything in the way of noise to your mains supply. Apart from anything else, the impedance at the meter is extremely low.

To be clear this isn't a Government supported rollout, it's a Government mandated rollout. The energy companies have to do it because the Government wants them to.

And the installation job isn't rocket science. With proper training, even with no prior experience, anyone who was interested enough to absorb the training could potentially do it.

I don't think the BBC Watchdog programme did find what you seem to believe.  And what action do you think the shadow energy minister can take exactly? Try to make political capital out of it! That is what being a shadow minister is all about!

best

David

David Hendon posted:

There is no wifi aspect to UK smart meters.

And there is no reason why they should add anything in the way of noise to your mains supply. Apart from anything else, the impedance at the meter is extremely low.

100%    -  the meter is just a normal meter with a digital display thats linked to a ZigBee transmitter,   If you have gas on the Smart Meter that is also linked to the same ZigBee transmitter.      But to your point,  as an electricity meter it's no different to a meter without the 'Smart' stuff.        The indoor display runs off a SMPS,  & if you believe that might affect SQ,  OK,   but can you really hear it??   

No the installation is not Rocket Science, but instances of seriously dangerous installations have been highlighted. Whilst the majority of installations may have been carried out competently, that should not excuse those cases where installation have not been carried out competently with catastrophic results.

As you point out this is a government mandated roll out and the government minister responsible is avoiding questions surrounding the roll out, deadline and evident safety shortcomings. The shadow minister is I believe initiating an inquiry into the roll out and safety concerns, what form that will take I dont know, but this may well be a serious matter of public safety to which the government and electricity providers are responsible and it is right that there is transparency and accountability.

If you believe I am incorrect with regard to The BBC Watchdog, they have covered this in every episode of the last series, if its still available on IPlayer go watch all the episodes its all there.

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