Smart Meters, again!

To a layperson what is Zigbee, SMPS, GSM, SMETS etc?

I'm a dumb analogue guy

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A BEIS spokesperson said:

“In the first half of 2017, there have been only 18 reported installation issues of this nature in the fitting of more than 3 million meters during the same period.

Only 18? Well that's alright then!

David Hendon posted:

HiFiman posted:

I think the only effect on sound you may have if a smart meter is fitted is that you may not have a system or house to come back too especially with the shoddy installs that are taking place.

YTS installers out there. Beware!!! 

I'm sorry to say this, but this is complete nonsense. The installers have by law to be properly trained.

There is as YET142 says no compulsion to have a smart meter. The costs will be there in the tariffs anyway so you will pay for it whether you have one or not.

And in the end I expect that it will be like paying for a phone connection with or without direct debit - you don't have to agree, but it will be more expensive for you if you don't.

Anyway still no effect on SQ!

This is going rather off-topic, but six months ago I had a smart water meter fitted. It took Thames Water that long to sort out their internal accounting, but when eventually they did, I got a bill that said I was £280 in credit. So that's several hundred pounds a year I will save compared with the previous fixed rate based on rateable value. And no effect on SQ either.....

best

David

I don't think my comment was nonsense, there has been a number of reported installation failures regarding these meters and as stated in posts above I think 18 failures is too much, thankfully no one has died but peoples property has gone up in smoke.

“A comprehensive investigation of this incident has confirmed that there was no fault with our processes, or the equipment installed. This was an extremely rare instance of human error. Our installation process reflects the importance we put on safety in our training and operations, and we are very sorry that on this occasion one of our engineers did not follow our technical procedures correctly. This mistake had nothing to do with smart meter technology. The engineer involved has since left the business

Human error. One of our engineers did not follow our technical procedures correctly. The engineer involved has since left the business. Oh! Well that's alright then!

I started this as a thread about smart meter effect on SQ but I think may be destined for the Padded Cell. ��

HiFiman posted:

David Hendon posted:

HiFiman posted:

I think the only effect on sound you may have if a smart meter is fitted is that you may not have a system or house to come back too especially with the shoddy installs that are taking place.

YTS installers out there. Beware!!! 

I'm sorry to say this, but this is complete nonsense. The installers have by law to be properly trained.

There is as YET142 says no compulsion to have a smart meter. The costs will be there in the tariffs anyway so you will pay for it whether you have one or not.

And in the end I expect that it will be like paying for a phone connection with or without direct debit - you don't have to agree, but it will be more expensive for you if you don't.

Anyway still no effect on SQ!

This is going rather off-topic, but six months ago I had a smart water meter fitted. It took Thames Water that long to sort out their internal accounting, but when eventually they did, I got a bill that said I was £280 in credit. So that's several hundred pounds a year I will save compared with the previous fixed rate based on rateable value. And no effect on SQ either.....

best

David

I don't think my comment was nonsense, there has been a number of reported installation failures regarding these meters and as stated in posts above I think 18 failures is too much, thankfully no one has died but peoples property has gone up in smoke.

And the roll out is in its infancy here. In America & Canada where smart metering has been introduced there are widespread reports of fires due to either poor installations or failures of the meters.

Dreadatthecontrols posted:

To a layperson what is Zigbee, SMPS, GSM, SMETS etc?

Zigbee ... an ultra low power local network protocol, used in remote controls, home automation, and private connections between devices. Think of it like the radio version of your infra red remote control, or a more versatile version of your car key wireless fob.

SMPS .. switch mode powersupply... works by taking a slice of the input voltage and filtering it such that the the output voltage is proportional to the slice of the input voltage taken. Ubiquitous in consumer electronics. Cheaper, lighter, smaller, more efficient than analogue transformer based power supplies... 

GSM ... the  standard used to define digital mobile phone protocols, often referred to as 2G.  First used in 1991 in Europe and now the global defacto mobile standard.. it's basically how your mobile works.

SMETS... had to look that one up,.. basically an industry definition describing  smart metering equipment interfacing... i.e. How certain devices to talk with each other in the smart metering world.

Thanks Simon, Switched mode power supply I get, the rest is alien to a dummy like me struggling with the 21st Century. ��

Dreadatthecontrols posted:

HiFiman posted:

David Hendon posted:

HiFiman posted:

I think the only effect on sound you may have if a smart meter is fitted is that you may not have a system or house to come back too especially with the shoddy installs that are taking place.

YTS installers out there. Beware!!! 

I'm sorry to say this, but this is complete nonsense. The installers have by law to be properly trained.

There is as YET142 says no compulsion to have a smart meter. The costs will be there in the tariffs anyway so you will pay for it whether you have one or not.

And in the end I expect that it will be like paying for a phone connection with or without direct debit - you don't have to agree, but it will be more expensive for you if you don't.

Anyway still no effect on SQ!

This is going rather off-topic, but six months ago I had a smart water meter fitted. It took Thames Water that long to sort out their internal accounting, but when eventually they did, I got a bill that said I was £280 in credit. So that's several hundred pounds a year I will save compared with the previous fixed rate based on rateable value. And no effect on SQ either.....

best

David

I don't think my comment was nonsense, there has been a number of reported installation failures regarding these meters and as stated in posts above I think 18 failures is too much, thankfully no one has died but peoples property has gone up in smoke.

And the roll out is in its infancy here. In America & Canada where smart metering has been introduced there are widespread reports of fires due to either poor installations or failures of the meters.

This is going to be my last post on this. It was your quip about YTS installers that I meant was nonsense.

There is absolutely no reason why smart meters should fail and cause a fire any more than do existing meters. Also the installation is trivial to do - but one complication comes when one installer has to be qualified to do both gas and electricity meters when the customer is dual fuel. Traditionally installers were trained for one or the other. And meters are normally replaced about once every ten years as a matter of regulatory requirement and the fact that all are being done in a shorter time means more installations per year. So these two things together is why the industry is having to train additional (about twice as many) installers.

Anyway I'm done here.

best

David

Cables can't make a difference and nor can a smart meter, there's nothing to worry about. Only thing is, once you let one in your house there's no getting rid of it, I'd like to be very sure there's no down side so I'll let everyone else try it out first.

"Remember perfect sound forever" ?

David Hendon posted:

Dreadatthecontrols posted:

HiFiman posted:

David Hendon posted:

HiFiman posted:

I think the only effect on sound you may have if a smart meter is fitted is that you may not have a system or house to come back too especially with the shoddy installs that are taking place.

YTS installers out there. Beware!!! 

I'm sorry to say this, but this is complete nonsense. The installers have by law to be properly trained.

There is as YET142 says no compulsion to have a smart meter. The costs will be there in the tariffs anyway so you will pay for it whether you have one or not.

And in the end I expect that it will be like paying for a phone connection with or without direct debit - you don't have to agree, but it will be more expensive for you if you don't.

Anyway still no effect on SQ!

This is going rather off-topic, but six months ago I had a smart water meter fitted. It took Thames Water that long to sort out their internal accounting, but when eventually they did, I got a bill that said I was £280 in credit. So that's several hundred pounds a year I will save compared with the previous fixed rate based on rateable value. And no effect on SQ either.....

best

David

I don't think my comment was nonsense, there has been a number of reported installation failures regarding these meters and as stated in posts above I think 18 failures is too much, thankfully no one has died but peoples property has gone up in smoke.

And the roll out is in its infancy here. In America & Canada where smart metering has been introduced there are widespread reports of fires due to either poor installations or failures of the meters.

This is going to be my last post on this. It was your quip about YTS installers that I meant was nonsense.

There is absolutely no reason why smart meters should fail and cause a fire any more than do existing meters. Also the installation is trivial to do - but one complication comes when one installer has to be qualified to do both gas and electricity meters when the customer is dual fuel. Traditionally installers were trained for one or the other. And meters are normally replaced about once every ten years as a matter of regulatory requirement and the fact that all are being done in a shorter time means more installations per year. So these two things together is why the industry is having to train additional (about twice as many) installers.

Anyway I'm done here.

best

David

 

 

I think your being blind to the evidence out there.

Anyway I agree we should be done with this as its getting away from my original post which was specifically about smart meters vs sound quality and starting to stray in to Padded Cell territory.

Atb

Richard

Being involved in the Smart meter rollout in Victoria, Australia on the IT side I can say that the rate of incorrect installation happens at no higher rate than would be normal under business as usual procedures perhaps even lower given that is the installers only job.  That fires can be caused is undeniable but it has little to do with Smart meters per se, generally the cause is old wires losing the protective sheathing by being tugged or pulled during the replacement process.  It would also happen with a standard meter replacement, some of the installers suggested that since the wires between the meter and the switchboard are generally untouched during renovations it tends to be the oldest wire in the house and is likely to be the same age as the house (YMMV in the UK).  In the days before PVC the sheathing wasn't as durable and I have seen examples of naked copper inside walls.  Unlike what David has indicated for the UK, in Australia many of the meters were unchanged from construction including some in excess of 90 years old.  The old ones tended to spin a bit slower and err more in the consumers favour so owners where reluctant to part part with them if possible. 

With regard to impact on SQ we used the mesh type of communication and the meter had a 1 watt transmitter (800KHz USM band) installed and the mesh type tend to be a bit chatty in radio terms as they are always looking to strongest and quickest exit from the mesh.  I would consider it possible that if you had the meter close to where your system was sited (i.e. on the other side of the wall) you may experience some interference though I couldn't say how it would manifest itself but would be intermittent and short.

There is a lot of potential in smart meters whether this is realised or not remains to be seen but the elimination of the Organisational Health and Safety risks associated with meter reading is significant for the businesses though this is balanced by the individuals loss of job so it's not exactly win-win.

Interesting 1 Watt at 800 kHz is going to be challenging because of ionospheric noise, man made noise (QRM)  and antenna size... I guess the ERP must be rather low for practical domestic antennas? BUT that frequency is going to be more susceptible to RF break through to audio electronics etc. Much current smart metering in the U.K. uses GSM (from 900 MHz)  and although that can go upto 2 Watts, which is relatively high for that frequency, GSM regulates its power and so typically you will be in the 100's mW range as with handsets. The new LoRa wide area Internet of Things type networks for metering and telemetry  that operate in the unlicensed ISM bands are typically 10's mW output power but are meshed.

You have to distinguish between the Home Area Network which is how the gas and electricity meters and the in home display talk to each other and the Wide Area Network which is how the meter installation talks back to the billing system. In the UK the HAN is 2.4 GHz Zigbee (a special flavour of it defined in detail in the SMETS specification) and plans are afoot to introduce 868 MHz as an alternative where the distance between network components (meters etc) are too far apart for 2.4 GHz to work reliably.

The WAN is GSM (Telefonica) in the two thirds of the central and southern regions of the country and a 400MHz approx proprietary solution (Arqiva) in the northern region. Where Simon lives it is indeed GSM.

The radio traffic is always minimised, in the case of the WAN so that all the meters can exchange messages within the available network capacity and in the case of the HAN because of the need to conserve battery power in the gas meter, which is not powered from the mains and which has a specified battery life of ten years.

So all of this means very low powers and infrequent signalling. As Naim equipment is not, so far as I know, susceptible to interference from mobile phones and wifi hubs, there won't be any SQ impact from these Smart Meter installations in the UK.

best

David

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Interesting 1 Watt at 800 kHz is going to be challenging because of ionospheric noise, man made noise (QRM)  and antenna size...

Yep - that would be interesting  .

The Australian system mentioned uses the ISM band up at 915Mhz. 

James

oops trying to do 2 things at once and not paying attention, should be 915-928 Mhz ISM band.  In my defence it was a few years ago now.  We used it get good hops in testing up to 2km line of sight between meters more to an access point (3G data concentrator).  In the Australian market a lot of the focus is about controlling consumption in times of stress, avoiding blackouts maintaining the distribution network etc.  That consumers can get up to the minute consumption data is a bonus, though vital to the business case. 

David Hendon posted:

You have to distinguish between the Home Area Network which is how the gas and electricity meters and the in home display talk to each other and the Wide Area Network which is how the meter installation talks back to the billing system. In the UK the HAN is 2.4 GHz Zigbee (a special flavour of it defined in detail in the SMETS specification) and plans are afoot to introduce 868 MHz as an alternative where the distance between network components (meters etc) are too far apart for 2.4 GHz to work reliably.

The WAN is GSM (Telefonica) in the two thirds of the central and southern regions of the country and a 400MHz approx proprietary solution (Arqiva) in the northern region. Where Simon lives it is indeed GSM.

The radio traffic is always minimised, in the case of the WAN so that all the meters can exchange messages within the available network capacity and in the case of the HAN because of the need to conserve battery power in the gas meter, which is not powered from the mains and which has a specified battery life of ten years.

So all of this means very low powers and infrequent signalling. As Naim equipment is not, so far as I know, susceptible to interference from mobile phones and wifi hubs, there won't be any SQ impact from these Smart Meter installations in the UK.

best

David

My active Naim system used to be very susceptible to mobile phone interference. Someone only had to be on a phone outside in the street and I used to get horrifyingly loud pulses through my speakers so loud I feared damage to my system. That doesn't seem to happen anymore, my system hasent changed so I guess the phone technology had changed to be less polluting?

Since we aren't arguing about whether it's a good thing or not anymore (!) I can answer this.

That interference you mention was a big problem with GSM early on because most equipment it was interfering with was analogue and didn't know what to make of the TDMA waveform of GSM. The problem gradually reduced, partly because new analogue systems (and I'm not talking just about HiFi systems) were better protected against RF interference and partly because there were more base stations and so the handsets responded to the power control instructions from the network. You don't need such a big signal from the handset if the base station is close and so the network tells the handset to reduce power, partly to save handset battery life and partly to reduce interference to other base stations.

There are still GSM networks in the UK and pretty well everywhere across the world too. But many of us in the UK these days use 3G or 4G networks or indeed wifi and they don't have the same TDMA character and so don't cause nearly as much interference to analogue systems. There is a different interference problem between 4G systems at 800 MHz and digital TV, but that doesn't affect HiFi systems. I could explain it, but it's well off topic!

The Telefonica Smart Meter system uses GSM and not 3G or 4G systems because the terminal which is built into the smart meter communications hub is simpler and much less expensive that 3G or 4G would be. This will probably change again with 5G but we are a way off seeing that in UK smart meter systems.

The UK smart meter communications hub is collocated with the electricity meter so unless your Naim equipment is very close to the electricity meter (say within a metre or two) I wouldn't expect even the oldest Naim kit to get any interference from the smart meter GSM signals which anyway are brief and infrequent. If you live in the north of the UK, it won't be GSM anyway.

best

David

Thanks David,
We wasn't arguing about whether its (smart meters)  a good thing or not, the thread drifted off topic into the subject of safety of the installations our opinions of which we can agree differ. I tried to keep the thread on track pointing out that this was straying off topic and heading in to a subject for the padded cell although I was admittedly drawn in to this aspect of the discussion. No offence intended.
My original opening post posed the question as to whether or not smart meters could potentially effect SQ, I am not positing a view either way.
Anyway now were back on topic as pointed out earlier my system is indeed located in the same room and approx 3 metres from the meter and along the same wall. The meter/consumer units are housed in a wooden cupboard and one of my Allaes is unavoidably next to the cupboard, so if I understand your last comment correctly there is a possibility that my system could be affected.
Until I am convinced that a smart meter will not noticeably degrade my listening pleasure I am resisting pressure from my gas & electricity supplier to have one at least until it becomes mandatory by law.

Peace n love

Richard

I suppose the easiest way to put this Richard would be to say that there are a lot more things already around in your house and the local environment which are more likely to have an effect (albeit small) on your system than the Smart Meter, 

I don't think you will pick up interference at your speaker because the impedance is very low there. If you get an ordinary GSM phone and use it near your Naim kit, do you still get the interference you mentioned before?

In any case I don't think it is likely that any Government will force people to have smart energy meters. It's more likely that you will eventually be persuaded by the benefits. Anyway I think you can just say no for a few years yet!

best

David

Just changed energy suppliers so I have two smart meters whizzing round with nowhere to send the information on the plus side it has freed up a 13amp socket in the kitchen as the Smart meter reader is no longer required.

Pcd posted:

Just changed energy suppliers so I have two smart meters whizzing round with nowhere to send the information on the plus side it has freed up a 13amp socket in the kitchen as the Smart meter reader is no longer required.

 

Sounds like a successful roll out. The lady who called the other day asking if i'd like a smart meter 'upgrade' didn't quite understand that i already knew how much energy i used and that the lovely new meter wouldn't save me money however much she told me it would...