Is there a correlation between hissing noise of speaker and hifi quality?

Consciousmess posted:

Furthermore, does that mean when the hiss is zero, the hifi has reached perfection?!

Or, perhaps, the hifi is not on.

Willy.

No. Hiss is thermionic noise, and alhough better equipment generally would be likely to be designed to minimise hiss, it is not in any way an indication of sound quality per se.

More efficient speakers will make the hiss with the same electronics arising after the volume control sound louder. (Considering this with your hypothesis in a previous thread that more efficient speakers give better sound quality, for the same electronics your latest hypothesis would suggest an inverse correlation with sound quality: the louder the hiss the better!)

Consciousmess posted:
So... one may hypothesise that this hiss volume negatively correlates as one moves up the system hierarchy. Furthermore, does that mean when the hiss is zero, the hifi has reached perfection?!

Yes - this is absolutely right.

I'm SO pleased to find someone with the insight and courage to just say the apparently stupid.

you can have high end system with tube electronics, very musical and enjoyable, but with more speakers' hiss than an entry level solid state state system.  All depends if this hiss is annoying or yet.  But if not, this correlation mentioned above is not always true.

With a vinyl source, you have more hiss in the speakers than with digital:  but is it enough to say that digital is better?  second example.

Adam Meredith posted:

Consciousmess posted:
So... one may hypothesise that this hiss volume negatively correlates as one moves up the system hierarchy. Furthermore, does that mean when the hiss is zero, the hifi has reached perfection?!

Yes - this is absolutely right.

I'm SO pleased to find someone with the insight and courage to just say the apparently stupid.

The level of hiss in a domestic hi-fi has too many variables to correlate with anything.  Within a single system, inherent gain of various amplifier stages, volume setting and speaker efficiency will all influence hiss levels. Hiss is essentially the  quiescent idling noise of a system.  The only real issue with hiss is whether it constitutes a problem or not. If you can hear the system idling from the listening position, then hiss is going to be a problem for low volume playback and for quiet musical passages.  There's even a variable here....how close  you sit to your speaker. Near-field listeners are going to be much more concerned with hiss than a listener seated further away from the speakers.

While hiss doesn't directly correlate with a system's performance, it does correlate with component design and system matching.  A very high-gain MC phone stage is more difficult to design than a lower gain MM stage due to the modules' inherent quiescent idling noise. Pair a phone stage or preamplifier with high quiescent noise with a pair of high efficiency speakers and you'll have a problem. Pair the same amps with moderate or low efficiency speakers and the problem doesn't exist, hence system matching is key. 

So, you could say that if hiss correlates with anything, its with component design and system matching.  I've heard amplifiers that run silently and produce 'electronic' versions of music and others that sound slightly hissy even from the listening position that produce heavenly tones. Vinyl vs. digital is often a good example to illustrate what I mean. Vinyl hisses somewhat but still sounds generally better than some perfectly silent but otherwise teeth grindingly awful digital playback of yore.

Blackmorec posted:

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. Pair a phone stage or preamplifier with high quiescent noise with a pair of high efficiency speakers and you'll have a problem. Pair the same amps with moderate or low efficiency speakers and the problem doesn't exist. 

 

 

Actually the pre-volume control sources of hiss will sound the same level relative to music level regardless of speaker efficiency: in terms of hiss speaker efficiency only influences the sound level of hiss from the stages after the volume control (i.e any otput stage of the preamp plus the power amp).

My AV2 as pre-amp has more hiss than my Supernait 1 as pre-amp.

When I use a ChromeCast Audio as source, I've also more hiss than using my CD5i.

I have quite revealing speakers these days - Ovators - and this allows me to spot the differences well.

I think my observation was that the more DR related stuff gets used in the audio chain, the lower the hiss. Not entirely sure about this.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Blackmorec posted:

.

. Pair a phone stage or preamplifier with high quiescent noise with a pair of high efficiency speakers and you'll have a problem. Pair the same amps with moderate or low efficiency speakers and the problem doesn't exist. 

 

 

Actually the pre-volume control sources of hiss will sound the same level relative to music level regardless of speaker efficiency: in terms of hiss speaker efficiency only influences the sound level of hiss from the stages after the volume control (i.e any otput stage of the preamp plus the power amp).

Of course speaker efficiency won't change a component's inherent s/n ratio. But we're talking quiescent idling noise....the noise produced without any musical signal.  That noise will be a lot louder through 114 dB/W speakers than through 85dB/W.....  The OPs question was, "does a silent system imply a superior system". All I'm saying is that silence through 85dB/W speakers may be anything but silence through some 114dB/w horns 

Blackmorec posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Blackmorec posted:

.

. Pair a phone stage or preamplifier with high quiescent noise with a pair of high efficiency speakers and you'll have a problem. Pair the same amps with moderate or low efficiency speakers and the problem doesn't exist. 

 

 

Actually the pre-volume control sources of hiss will sound the same level relative to music level regardless of speaker efficiency: in terms of hiss speaker efficiency only influences the sound level of hiss from the stages after the volume control (i.e any otput stage of the preamp plus the power amp).

Of course speaker efficiency won't change a component's inherent s/n ratio. But we're talking quiescent idling noise....the noise produced without any musical signal.  That noise will be a lot louder through 114 dB/W speakers than through 85dB/W.....  The OPs question was, "does a silent system imply a superior system". All I'm saying is that silence through 85dB/W speakers may be anything but silence through some 114dB/w horns 

Agreed - that is more or less what I had said in my first post.

The point I was making in my response above was that the efficiency of the speakers is only relevant to the hiss of the noise introduced after the volume control - the hiss introduced before the VC is a certain proportion of music level of a given part of the music before the VC, and so although a higher or lower signal is passed according to the setting of the VC, the proportional level of the hiss compared to that part of the music remains constant. So, supposing the circuitry after the VC introduces no hiss at all: if you set the music to the same loudness with the less efficient speakers as with more efficient speakers (VC set lower for latter), the loudness of the hiss will be the same with either set of speakers.  However any hiss introduced in the stages after the VC are unrelated to music level, so with more efficient speakers will be louder.

Consciousmess posted:

All of us know that to check if a system is on, one puts one's ear against the tweeter to hear a hiss.

I presume that 'hiss' is the interference the system makes e.g. the electronics. What else could it be?

So... one may hypothesise that this hiss volume negatively correlates as one moves up the system hierarchy. Furthermore, does that mean when the hiss is zero, the hifi has reached perfection?!

My naim system hisses more than any system I have ever owned, and it also sounds better than any system I have ever owned. So take that for what its worth.

I don't think there's anything but air inside a ping pong ball.

Is there a correlation between hissing noise of speaker and hifi quality?

The Pope... he is Catholic?

And what about Transformer Hum ?? Is it indicative of amplifier quality ??

TOBYJUG posted:

And what about Transformer Hum ?? Is it indicative of amplifier quality ??

Nope! It is indicative of HUGE transformers and dirty mains 

sjbabbey posted:

I don't think there's anything but air inside a ping pong ball.

Itherevis. Whilst I don't know whether the base gas is air or some other gas used to 'blow' them, from the odour I believe it contains a certain proportion of camphor vapour, and possibly other vapours arising from the manufacturing process.

Innocent Bystander posted:

sjbabbey posted:

I don't think there's anything but air inside a ping pong ball.

Itherevis. Whilst I don't know whether the base gas is air or some other gas used to 'blow' them, from the odour I believe it contains a certain proportion of camphor vapour, and possibly other vapours arising from the manufacturing process.

You may well be right. Would that cause it to hiss if you punctured it?

sjbabbey posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

sjbabbey posted:

I don't think there's anything but air inside a ping pong ball.

Itherevis. Whilst I don't know whether the base gas is air or some other gas used to 'blow' them, from the odour I believe it contains a certain proportion of camphor vapour, and possibly other vapours arising from the manufacturing process.

You may well be right. Would that cause it to hiss if you punctured it?

Hmm, that would be difference in air pressure not camphor. Is the hissing from air going in or out? If you don't know , you could check by getting some ping pong balls, a pin, and a strip of tissue paper...  (unless of course it alternates rapidly in and out like a speaker!)

IB, thanks for the tip.