Mojo linear PSU upgrade for 2012 Mac Mini

james n posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

French Rooster posted:

i am a bit surprised that you found mac mini/ dave indistinguishable from melco/dave, 

Specifically MM with Audirvana in fully optimised/dedicated mode - there are many different MM renderer implementations and they do not all sound as good.

Yes i'm surprised. That's how i ran mine. Anyway mileage varies depending on kit, setup etc. For me, the Melco doing all this in one box was the simplest solution and one that didn't need any extra add on boxes or fiddling with software to 'optimise' it. 

And it also very much depends on the DAC being fed - however, as I've indicated, if I was buying now and didn't have Mac Mini I'd be thinking Melco,  or possibly Uniti Core, for the reasons you cite,  the difference in cost not being huge. But as always it depends where you're coming from.

Innocent Bystander posted:

james n posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

French Rooster posted:

i am a bit surprised that you found mac mini/ dave indistinguishable from melco/dave, 

Specifically MM with Audirvana in fully optimised/dedicated mode - there are many different MM renderer implementations and they do not all sound as good.

Yes i'm surprised. That's how i ran mine. Anyway mileage varies depending on kit, setup etc. For me, the Melco doing all this in one box was the simplest solution and one that didn't need any extra add on boxes or fiddling with software to 'optimise' it. 

And it also very much depends on the DAC being fed - however, as I've indicated, if I was buying now and didn't have Mac Mini I'd be thinking Melco,  or possibly Uniti Core, for the reasons you cite,  the difference in cost not being huge. But as always it depends where you're coming from.

The difference in cost is perhaps not significant but mac mini, Uniti Core and Melco are very different devices in terms of usability and flexibility. The Core comes with a UPnP server that provided virtually no support for classical music. I do not know whether one can run MinimServer or Asset on the Melco, I seem to remember that it supports MinimServer. But it is certainly not possible to run MinimServer (or, indeed, any UPnP server suitable for classical music) on the Core. Thus, at the end of the day, a dedicated mac mini (or, for that, a Raspberry Pi or any decent fanless microcomputer) might turn out to be a significantly more flexible and usable solution than a Core and, perhaps, even a Melco. 

Many thanks to all for their suggestions and ideas.

I use an Audiophilleo 1 + Pro power USB / SPDIF convertor to connect my MM to my nDAC.

I think I may try the Teradak as it's very competitively priced.....

Shaun

Shaun McCullagh posted:

Many thanks to all for their suggestions and ideas.

I use an Audiophilleo 1 + Pro power USB / SPDIF convertor to connect my MM to my nDAC.

I think I may try the Teradak as it's very competitively priced.....

Shaun

 

 

i think it is chinese, but good reputation.

Rummaging around I discovered this from https://www.audioasylum.com/cg...pcaudio&m=142108

"Listening Results:
While I heard, or thought I heard very slight differences between the Mac's built-in switching power supply and the external linear power supplies and battery, I cannot say with certainty that these differences were real or just differences in mood over the course of my listening sessions. In other words, none of the power supplies stood out as being a night and day improvement or disappointment. None were perceived as being 'better sounding' than another."

So don't think I'll bother. I think I get more enjoyment from a Rega turntable (+ record cleaner of course)

Thanks to all.

Shaun

UpTone do one for a fraction of that cost that gets pretty good feedback.  

Shaun McCullagh posted:

Rummaging around I discovered this from https://www.audioasylum.com/cg...pcaudio&m=142108

"Listening Results:
While I heard, or thought I heard very slight differences between the Mac's built-in switching power supply and the external linear power supplies and battery, I cannot say with certainty that these differences were real or just differences in mood over the course of my listening sessions. In other words, none of the power supplies stood out as being a night and day improvement or disappointment. None were perceived as being 'better sounding' than another."

So don't think I'll bother. I think I get more enjoyment from a Rega turntable (+ record cleaner of course)

Thanks to all.

Shaun

all is subjective and personal. From my own experience and from what i read, the improvement is significant, but with cost effective linear ps like uptone audio or hdplex. After we can also consider that spending the same money as the mac mini on an linear ps is perhaps excessive.

The same for naim ps: i have the nds, with 555dr ps. Before it was the xps, 3 times less expensive: the improvement is not big for the enormous increase in cost.

With hdplex or uptone lps( 400 dollars), you can try and return with no problem. You will just loose the shipping cost.

French Rooster posted:

Shaun McCullagh posted:

Rummaging around I discovered this from https://www.audioasylum.com/cg...pcaudio&m=142108

"Listening Results:
While I heard, or thought I heard very slight differences between the Mac's built-in switching power supply and the external linear power supplies and battery, I cannot say with certainty that these differences were real or just differences in mood over the course of my listening sessions. In other words, none of the power supplies stood out as being a night and day improvement or disappointment. None were perceived as being 'better sounding' than another."

 

 

. From my own experience and from what i read, the improvement is significant, but with cost effective linear ps like uptone audio or hdplex. After we can also consider that spending the same money as the mac mini on an linear ps is perhaps excessive.

 

 

Or, as I intimated, a good isolator and/or good internal rejection in the DAC may remove all RF so that RF from the power supply is rejected together with RF from within the computer., and effective reclocking prevent jitter...

French Rooster posted:

.....i have the nds, with 555dr ps. Before it was the xps, 3 times less expensive: the improvement is not big for the enormous increase in cost....

Either your XPS fell off the back of a lorry, or you were fleeced for your 555!

james n posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

French Rooster posted:

i am a bit surprised that you found mac mini/ dave indistinguishable from melco/dave, 

Specifically MM with Audirvana in fully optimised/dedicated mode - there are many different MM renderer implementations and they do not all sound as good.

Yes i'm surprised. That's how i ran mine. Anyway mileage varies depending on kit, setup etc. For me, the Melco doing all this in one box was the simplest solution and one that didn't need any extra add on boxes or fiddling with software to 'optimise' it. 

Best advice to the OP - try a few different server solutions and see what works for you 

Agreed it's important to try these things in your own system. Like James, I went from fully optimised Mac Mini to Melco, the latter being significantly better.

ChrisSU posted:

French Rooster posted:

.....i have the nds, with 555dr ps. Before it was the xps, 3 times less expensive: the improvement is not big for the enormous increase in cost....

Either your XPS fell off the back of a lorry, or you were fleeced for your 555!

it is the rule of the game in high end audio:  higher you go , very very higher it will cost. The statement s1 is 4 times the cost of the 552 but not even 2 times better. A big step, but is it night and day?    for the 555dr, i accept the rule of the game and don't regret.  I am not fleeced.  Try an xps for your ndx, and you will see....

Innocent Bystander posted:

 

 

 

 

Or, as I intimated, a good isolator and/or good internal rejection in the DAC may remove all RF so that RF from the power supply is rejected together with RF from within the computer., and effective reclocking prevent jitter...

tonym had before the fully optimized mac mini, with linear ps and usb isolator i presume. He is the best placed to say if these tweaks improved the mac mini.  I would be surprised if he says that linear ps had no effect....  And i am also sure that melco sounds better than fully optimized mac mini...

We can all only comment on what we hear - and it does depend on the implementation of the "fully optimised" MM - my comparison was into Dave, IIRC TonyM's was into QBD76 (which he prefers to Dave) - whilst I am not a disciple of Chord's designer, I do understand that there was a lot of development between these two Chord DACs, including on RF rejection, so finding a difference is unsurprising. 

As I indicated when I mentioned it, I did not do a thorough long term assessment, but a fairly brief A-B comparison atbthe end of a the session conparing Chord DACs., therefore I cannot say absolutely that there is no difference between the sound of Melco N1A and optimised Mac Mini/Audirvana into Dave, but if there is a difference it was not evident in the A-B comparison, through Brtston amp and PMC Fact 12 speakers, therefore is small.

Innocent Bystander posted:

We can all only comment on what we hear - and it does depend on the implementation of the "fully optimised" MM - my comparison was into Dave, IIRC TonyM's was into QBD76 (which he prefers to Dave) - whilst I am not a disciple of Chord's designer, I do understand that there was a lot of development between these two Chord DACs, including on RF rejection, so finding a difference is unsurprising. 

As I indicated when I mentioned it, I did not do a thorough long term assessment, but a fairly brief A-B comparison atbthe end of a the session conparing Chord DACs., therefore I cannot say absolutely that there is no difference between the sound of Melco N1A and optimised Mac Mini/Audirvana into Dave, but if there is a difference it was not evident in the A-B comparison, through Brtston amp and PMC Fact 12 speakers, therefore is small.

i can't deny your experience, it is true for you because you have heard what you heard. The electronics of tonym and his system have more resolution i think vs the system you refer. So perhaps in a more advanced system these differences are bigger?

French Rooster posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

We can all only comment on what we hear - and it does depend on the implementation of the "fully optimised" MM - my comparison was into Dave, IIRC TonyM's was into QBD76 (which he prefers to Dave) - whilst I am not a disciple of Chord's designer, I do understand that there was a lot of development between these two Chord DACs, including on RF rejection, so finding a difference is unsurprising. 

As I indicated when I mentioned it, I did not do a thorough long term assessment, but a fairly brief A-B comparison atbthe end of a the session conparing Chord DACs., therefore I cannot say absolutely that there is no difference between the sound of Melco N1A and optimised Mac Mini/Audirvana into Dave, but if there is a difference it was not evident in the A-B comparison, through Brtston amp and PMC Fact 12 speakers, therefore is small.

i can't deny your experience, it is true for you because you have heard what you heard. The electronics of tonym and his system have more resolution i think vs the system you refer. So perhaps in a more advanced system these differences are bigger?

I have no way of knowing - but as I pointed out, the DAC was different, and when considering the quality of sound from a computer-based source its interaction with the DAC, in particular the ability of the DAC to reject RF is of great significance, so it could very well be that there is a difference between how MM/A sounds through Dave compared to how it sounds through QBD76.

Innocent Bystander posted:

French Rooster posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

We can all only comment on what we hear - and it does depend on the implementation of the "fully optimised" MM - my comparison was into Dave, IIRC TonyM's was into QBD76 (which he prefers to Dave) - whilst I am not a disciple of Chord's designer, I do understand that there was a lot of development between these two Chord DACs, including on RF rejection, so finding a difference is unsurprising. 

As I indicated when I mentioned it, I did not do a thorough long term assessment, but a fairly brief A-B comparison atbthe end of a the session conparing Chord DACs., therefore I cannot say absolutely that there is no difference between the sound of Melco N1A and optimised Mac Mini/Audirvana into Dave, but if there is a difference it was not evident in the A-B comparison, through Brtston amp and PMC Fact 12 speakers, therefore is small.

i can't deny your experience, it is true for you because you have heard what you heard. The electronics of tonym and his system have more resolution i think vs the system you refer. So perhaps in a more advanced system these differences are bigger?

I have no way of knowing - but as I pointed out, the DAC was different, and when considering the quality of sound from a computer-based source its interaction with the DAC, in particular the ability of the DAC to reject RF is of great significance, so it could very well be that there is a difference between how MM/A sounds through Dave compared to how it sounds through QBD76.

you are just making the hypothesis that chord dave is rejecting more RF than QBD76.....perhaps true, perhaps not. just hypothesis..... I don't think we can go somewhere in this discussion.    For myself i have not the mac mini, just the unitserve, and my nds is streaming from the serve in ethernet mode, so no usb or spdif connection.  But i can say that the linear ps on my unitserve improved really the sound.

The uniticore has also an integrated linear ps and the sound is better vs the stock unitserve(with smps), in ethernet and spdif mode.

French Rooster posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

French Rooster posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

We can all only comment on what we hear - and it does depend on the implementation of the "fully optimised" MM - my comparison was into Dave, IIRC TonyM's was into QBD76 (which he prefers to Dave) - whilst I am not a disciple of Chord's designer, I do understand that there was a lot of development between these two Chord DACs, including on RF rejection, so finding a difference is unsurprising. 

As I indicated when I mentioned it, I did not do a thorough long term assessment, but a fairly brief A-B comparison atbthe end of a the session conparing Chord DACs., therefore I cannot say absolutely that there is no difference between the sound of Melco N1A and optimised Mac Mini/Audirvana into Dave, but if there is a difference it was not evident in the A-B comparison, through Brtston amp and PMC Fact 12 speakers, therefore is small.

i can't deny your experience, it is true for you because you have heard what you heard. The electronics of tonym and his system have more resolution i think vs the system you refer. So perhaps in a more advanced system these differences are bigger?

I have no way of knowing - but as I pointed out, the DAC was different, and when considering the quality of sound from a computer-based source its interaction with the DAC, in particular the ability of the DAC to reject RF is of great significance, so it could very well be that there is a difference between how MM/A sounds through Dave compared to how it sounds through QBD76.

you are just making the hypothesis that chord dave is rejecting more RF than QBD76.....perhaps true, perhaps not. just hypothesis..... I don't think we can go somewhere in this discussion.    For myself i have not the mac mini, just the unitserve, and my nds is streaming from the serve in ethernet mode, so no usb or spdif connection.  But i can say that the linear ps on my unitserve improved really the sound.

The uniticore has also an integrated linear ps and the sound is better vs the stock unitserve(with smps), in ethernet and spdif mode.

As with some of your contributions in other threads you are just arguing against this for the sake of it to have the last word. My "hypothesis" as you called it is that that is the reason for the difference: whilst I don't recall a specific statement by the designer of the two DACsi comparing their RF rejection, he has talked about the emphasis improving that when developing DAve, so it is not an unreasonable conclusion that Dave does do it better than QBD76.

And I have not suggested that a linear PS couldn't improve MM/A, but that with effective RF rejection either by an isolator or choice of DAC, and jitter rejection by effective reclocking, the effect of the PS may be irrelevant. Whether a linear PS on Unitiserve or anything else improves is irrelevant as it is a different device (though without looking into it in further detail it is not inconceivable that the same arguments might apply).

The OP must draw his own conclusions, and I suggest better to form his view as to the way forward based on what has actually been observed (heard) by others, which is of more relevance than conjecture from others without first-hand experience. And where differeing experiences are offered, which is not uncommon, the OP can try to assess if there are possible reasons for those differences, and if so determine if they might apply to him, or otherwise recognise that there not infrequently differences are either random or down to the listener's ears or preferences. This of course is less important if the opportunity to audition exists.

Innocent Bystander posted:

French Rooster posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

French Rooster posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

We can all only comment on what we hear - and it does depend on the implementation of the "fully optimised" MM - my comparison was into Dave, IIRC TonyM's was into QBD76 (which he prefers to Dave) - whilst I am not a disciple of Chord's designer, I do understand that there was a lot of development between these two Chord DACs, including on RF rejection, so finding a difference is unsurprising. 

As I indicated when I mentioned it, I did not do a thorough long term assessment, but a fairly brief A-B comparison atbthe end of a the session conparing Chord DACs., therefore I cannot say absolutely that there is no difference between the sound of Melco N1A and optimised Mac Mini/Audirvana into Dave, but if there is a difference it was not evident in the A-B comparison, through Brtston amp and PMC Fact 12 speakers, therefore is small.

i can't deny your experience, it is true for you because you have heard what you heard. The electronics of tonym and his system have more resolution i think vs the system you refer. So perhaps in a more advanced system these differences are bigger?

I have no way of knowing - but as I pointed out, the DAC was different, and when considering the quality of sound from a computer-based source its interaction with the DAC, in particular the ability of the DAC to reject RF is of great significance, so it could very well be that there is a difference between how MM/A sounds through Dave compared to how it sounds through QBD76.

you are just making the hypothesis that chord dave is rejecting more RF than QBD76.....perhaps true, perhaps not. just hypothesis..... I don't think we can go somewhere in this discussion.    For myself i have not the mac mini, just the unitserve, and my nds is streaming from the serve in ethernet mode, so no usb or spdif connection.  But i can say that the linear ps on my unitserve improved really the sound.

The uniticore has also an integrated linear ps and the sound is better vs the stock unitserve(with smps), in ethernet and spdif mode.

As with some of your contributions in other threads you are just arguing against this for the sake of it to have the last word. My "hypothesis" as you called it is that that is the reason for the difference: whilst I don't recall a specific statement by the designer of the two DACsi comparing their RF rejection, he has talked about the emphasis improving that when developing DAve, so it is not an unreasonable conclusion that Dave does do it better than QBD76.

And I have not suggested that a linear PS couldn't improve MM/A, but that with effective RF rejection either by an isolator or choice of DAC, and jitter rejection by effective reclocking, the effect of the PS may be irrelevant. Whether a linear PS on Unitiserve or anything else improves is irrelevant as it is a different device (though without looking into it in further detail it is not inconceivable that the same arguments might apply).

The OP must draw his own conclusions, and I suggest better to form his view as to the way forward based on what has actually been observed (heard) by others, which is of more relevance than conjecture from others without first-hand experience. And where differeing experiences are offered, which is not uncommon, the OP can try to assess if there are possible reasons for those differences, and if so determine if they might apply to him, or otherwise recognise that there not infrequently differences are either random or down to the listener's ears or preferences. This of course is less important if the opportunity to audition exists.

 

it is why i suggested him just to try, and return if not satisfied. For wanting to have the last word, i don't know which of us is concerned.   You are also only theoretically arguing, because you have even not tried this linear ps on your mac mini,  So finally we are together making only hypothesis, i with my unitserve and reading of other forums but having not tested mac mini with different optimizations, and you because you have no experience with linear ps on mac mini.

The op will make his choice, perhaps he will try, perhaps not.

Bye bye...

French Rooster posted:

ChrisSU posted:

French Rooster posted:

.....i have the nds, with 555dr ps. Before it was the xps, 3 times less expensive: the improvement is not big for the enormous increase in cost....

Either your XPS fell off the back of a lorry, or you were fleeced for your 555!

it is the rule of the game in high end audio:  higher you go , very very higher it will cost. The statement s1 is 4 times the cost of the 552 but not even 2 times better. A big step, but is it night and day?    for the 555dr, i accept the rule of the game and don't regret.  I am not fleeced.  Try an xps for your ndx, and you will see....

I do understand the law of diminishing returns, but I was questioning your relative pricing of PSUs. 

Innocent Bystander posted:

We can all only comment on what we hear - and it does depend on the implementation of the "fully optimised" MM - my comparison was into Dave, IIRC TonyM's was into QBD76 (which he prefers to Dave) - whilst I am not a disciple of Chord's designer, I do understand that there was a lot of development between these two Chord DACs, including on RF rejection, so finding a difference is unsurprising. 

As I indicated when I mentioned it, I did not do a thorough long term assessment, but a fairly brief A-B comparison atbthe end of a the session conparing Chord DACs., therefore I cannot say absolutely that there is no difference between the sound of Melco N1A and optimised Mac Mini/Audirvana into Dave, but if there is a difference it was not evident in the A-B comparison, through Brtston amp and PMC Fact 12 speakers, therefore is small.

A small point - I use an N1Z (but the N1A was also better than the MM) together now with an iFi 3.0 usb Galvanic isolator.

I'm delighted my little thread has sparked so much interest, many thanks to everyone's  interesting replies.

French Rooster: the $400 Uptone UltraCap LPS-1 is not suitable for an MM which requires a 12v supply, but thanks for your input.

I've just had an interesting chat with my dealer, who sells Melco's, and he agrees with me that I'd get much more fun rediscovering my extensive record collection with a Roksan turntable, which is about the same price as a Melco.

I think the most interesting thing is when one gets into the really pricey audio gear the ROI, or should I say Return on Pleasure (:-)), goes down in terms sound improvement namely the S1 is twice as good as a 552 but four times the price.

I guess that's going to spark some amusing replies ripostes, so I look forward to being decapitated LOL

Cheers

Shaun

hi Shaun -- i'm glad you're going to get a deck and rediscover your vinyl. as i alluded to earlier, your streaming chain is solid (NDAC/XPS is approaching as good as it gets) so focusing on the analogue side is the way to go, whether a new (or new to you) preamp or the Roksan!

ChrisSU posted:

French Rooster posted:

ChrisSU posted:

French Rooster posted:

.....i have the nds, with 555dr ps. Before it was the xps, 3 times less expensive: the improvement is not big for the enormous increase in cost....

Either your XPS fell off the back of a lorry, or you were fleeced for your 555!

it is the rule of the game in high end audio:  higher you go , very very higher it will cost. The statement s1 is 4 times the cost of the 552 but not even 2 times better. A big step, but is it night and day?    for the 555dr, i accept the rule of the game and don't regret.  I am not fleeced.  Try an xps for your ndx, and you will see....

I do understand the law of diminishing returns, but I was questioning your relative pricing of PSUs. 

you are right, these pricings are completely approximate.....  just wanted to say that 555dr is a lot more expensive than xps dr, for a not so big improvement.

Shaun McCullagh posted:

I'm delighted my little thread has sparked so much interest, many thanks to everyone's  interesting replies.

French Rooster: the $400 Uptone UltraCap LPS-1 is not suitable for an MM which requires a 12v supply, but thanks for your input.

I've just had an interesting chat with my dealer, who sells Melco's, and he agrees with me that I'd get much more fun rediscovering my extensive record collection with a Roksan turntable, which is about the same price as a Melco.

I think the most interesting thing is when one gets into the really pricey audio gear the ROI, or should I say Return on Pleasure (:-)), goes down in terms sound improvement namely the S1 is twice as good as a 552 but four times the price.

I guess that's going to spark some amusing replies ripostes, so I look forward to being decapitated LOL

Cheers

Shaun

 

i agree at 100%. :  the most important is pleasure to listen.   The melco is perhaps too much for your nd5x and your system is well balanced.  So this roksan turntable will add more pleasure and music to you...seems a good choice!