Tidal on my NAIM app doesn't work properly...

Finkfan posted:

Maybe we should start another thread listing ISPs and routers stating wether there are any issues with Tidal 

Hi,

Can I say that personally I think this would be 'a very bad idea' as there are no specific ISPs that are overall "bad" for streaming and it's vary rare that there are specific routers that are overall "bad" for streaming either - even the recent post regarding the SuperHub3 and its Intel chipset is a little misleading as the SuperHub 3 is perfectly capable of being used with our kit and other streaming products without issues - it's usually a combinational thing where multiple factors contribute to the overall performance of a system and of course also can vary over time as the underlying infrastructures also change.

Phil

I agree with Phil that focussing on ISPs is not the right strategy. Having looked through various posts over the past few years on this topic, the issue is largely centred around two key issues: latency, which seems to be something that even the fastest internet connection cannot solve, AND Naim streamers lacking a buffer capacity (which is why other devices play just fine)... For the ones with a slightly more technical bent of mind, please see Simon-in-Suffolk's thoughts on this across various posts.

In my personal view, if latency cannot be solved (as per the emails with Naim support), then the problem really is the lack of the buffer. I'm sure there are very good reasons why this doesn't exist, but till there is no such buffer, sadly the Naim streamers aren't really reliable. I had around 10 interruptions in play today... I don't think using an NDS, NDX or ND5 as a DAC is a happy outcome for many of us... 

Not sure what a firmware update can do, but sincerely hope that I don't have to resort to low-res stuff at these price points....

I've now got 16Mbps download speed from the WISP. The TV and  the ND5XS are both ethernet-cabled into the router. 

Using just my Android device to relay Tidal with the Tidal app is fine.

Using THE NAIM app., Internet radio has been and is fine. 

Using it to relay Tidal has been fine but now,  all of a sudden, dropout again. Just when I try and relay from Tidal.

Dropout dropout dropout.

I think I read in another thread that NAIM and Tidal are working on the problem?  

I hope they get to a solution soon because I think I'm losing the will to live...

When I had drop out problems I found that streaming to my NDS via a chromecast audio was very helpful (Toslink). Not as good SQ, but good SQ with dropouts is hopeless.

Mike1951 posted:

I've now got 16Mbps download speed from the WISP. The TV and  the ND5XS are both ethernet-cabled into the router. 

Using just my Android device to relay Tidal with the Tidal app is fine.

Using THE NAIM app., Internet radio has been and is fine. 

Using it to relay Tidal has been fine but now,  all of a sudden, dropout again. Just when I try and relay from Tidal.

Dropout dropout dropout.

I think I read in another thread that NAIM and Tidal are working on the problem?  

I hope they get to a solution soon because I think I'm losing the will to live...

I have periods where it will run for hours without a problem then the dropouts start up again. I usually switch over and listen to CD's ripped to the NAS for awhile then eventually go back to Tidal.

Would love to hear of a permanent solution to this drop-out problem. I really love the Tidal Hi-Fi service but when the drop-out start the love quickly fades. Not sure where the problem lies. I can listen to Tidal on headphones through a laptop or iPad without any drop-offs, it has only happened when using tidal through the Naim products that the drop-offs occur.  I understand your feelings of losing patience with living with this problem.

The other day I started getting dropouts when I kicked off an update on my iPhone and my iPad at the same time. I halted the updates and suddenly the music came back. I did a check of my speed which is normally 6 MBits/second and it was down at 1.5 Mbits/second (probably because everyone else in my district was downloading things, it was a sunday). I then restarted the updates and reran the speed test. It dropped to 0.75 Mbits/second.

When you say that you have 16 MBits/second, I bet that is a nominal figure. When the dropouts start, run a speed test and see what you are currently getting. I would bet that the speed in your area is variable like it is here.

Yes the speed drops off in the evenings, but I get dropouts during the day when I'm getting 15Mbps...

I hadn't realised that surrounding activity could cause the supplied speed to drop! Is this a side-effect of wireless provision? There's no other routing activity in my immediate area according to the "Wifi" analyser. The speed reading is taken using the "Speedtest" app.

It might be worth getting my system cabled-up...

As I understand it Naim recommends a CAT6 connection. I went to the trouble of getting an electrician in to put in a proper CAT6 cable and nice connections at both ends. Another tip is that every cable that you use, from the cables at the Modem end and the cables in your music room have to all be CAT6 or "bad things" will happen. I wish an actual Naim person would weigh in and tell us what is actually going on instead of having to guess at it ourselves.

I suspect your own WiFi is not the problem, but you can easily test this by using a wired connection. Just as a test, you can always just buy some very cheap cable from eBay and run it loose through the house to see if it helps. Any Cat5e or above cable will do. 

I don't recall Naim recommending Cat6,   the ethernet port is 100Base-T & Cat5 (now Cat5e) is all thats needed.   That said ethernet cabling - provided its not faulty - will have no effect on broadband speed & (alleged) Tidal dropouts

You can mix cat 5e and cat 6 cables in your network with no "bad things" of any sort happening.

best

David

Well I've got a Cat7 cable linking the router to the streamer.

So I'm going to Cat7 the modem to the router and see if that does anything.

Mike1951 posted:

Well I've got a Cat7 cable linking the router to the streamer.

So I'm going to Cat7 the modem to the router and see if that does anything.

If that last-ditch attempt doesn't work,  I'd seriously consider replacing the ND5XS for a streamer with a buffering function as, according to some posts here,  this could be a strong sticking plaster over the problem. 

Any advice as to compatible makes?  Linn,  for instance? 

The new Unitis buffer Tidal.....

best

David

I've no intention of buying an amplifier that I don't need.

The issue has been discussed at length and it is pretty clear (to me) that, despite the amount of work spent by Naim towards developing more reliable firmware without compromising sound quality, streamers of the old generation will likely never be fully immune from occasional Tidal dropouts.

It seems also obvious that the degree to which dropouts occur, very much depends on a variety of factors that neither end users nor providers of internet streaming services or in fact Naim can fully control. Also, I understand that firmare support for Qobuz or other current and upcoming internet streaming services will likely not be developed for NDS, ND5XS, etc.

Perhaps it would be easier for owners of these devices to accept the limitations of the technology they have bought. These are great devices that still can deliver dropouts free internet streaming services with a simple workaround: just connect a Raspberry Pi with an Allo DigiOne (about 150 EUR with a decent case) to your NDS, ND5XS, etc. and enjoy Tidal, Qobuz, etc. without the agonizing pain. There are a number or alternatives solutions: some cost a little bit more, some a little bit less and most of them sound pretty good.

Why does a combo of Raspberry Pi + Allo DigiOne fix the Tidal dropout issue? Why can NDS not fix the issue despite the fact it costs 1,00,000 times more?

imperialline posted:

Why does a combo of Raspberry Pi + Allo DigiOne fix the Tidal dropout issue? Why can NDS not fix the issue despite the fact it costs 1,00,000 times more?

I'm afraid you got a poor bargain if you paid over £100,000 for an NDS. 

.sjb

Sloop John B posted:

imperialline posted:

Why does a combo of Raspberry Pi + Allo DigiOne fix the Tidal dropout issue? Why can NDS not fix the issue despite the fact it costs 1,00,000 times more?

I'm afraid you got a poor bargain if you paid over £100,000 for an NDS. 

.sjb

Yes, it pains me and it shows how good a bargain the Rashberry PI is!!!

Connecting s "Raspberry Pi"  sounds like a good low cost option. 

Do I just buy one, box it, connect and power it up?

I suspect there's more to it than that. Which input on the ND5XS, for instance? Any software needed? Will i need an ethernet cable junction box to feed in the Pi plus the router? And so on...

A tutorial would be useful, especially as I'm now contemplating amateurishly adding a bit of random hardware to a NAIM system who's "shortcomings", if I may say, I'm not completely impressed with, having had to spend such a large amount of cash to acquire in the first place.

It seems to me that this product was poorly thought out in the first place,  to not be able to do what rival manufacturers' streamers don't seem to have a problem with.

PS: if Phil or Richard can offer ANY helpful news that NAIM are working on a solution to this problem and what stage the process is at, that would offer some reassurance and enable a little more patience before anything drastic has to happen!

imperialline posted:

Why does a combo of Raspberry Pi + Allo DigiOne fix the Tidal dropout issue? Why can NDS not fix the issue despite the fact it costs 1,00,000 times more?

They are completely different devices, designed and built to fulfil different tasks and specifications. The RPi is a full fledged single board computer with a relatively powerful CPu and plenty of memory. It does not need to sound good: a bare RPi is in fact, sound quality wise, rather miserable and its USB output is said to be very noisy. The Naim streamers are not general purpose computers. They come with a very limited amount of memory and have been designed to process low latency streams which they do very well indeed. Implementing support for Tidal, Qobuz, etc. for such devices has to be done in firmware (as opposed to the RPi where new code can be compiled on the device itself) and under tight memory constraints. This requires much higher device-specific expertise and higher development costs. It is a pity that Naim has chosen not to complement their range of dacs and streamers with a suitable front-end device. Initially I thought that the Core would be a solution of this and other problems but unfortunately it has turned out to be the source of even more troubles and, in my view, a very disappointing design. Still, as I wrote, there are plenty of alternatives, both low-price solutions (HiFIBerry Digi+ Pro, Allo DigiOne, Singxer USB to SPDIF interfaces) that require some system setup and installation skills and slightly more expensive ready to use solutions from Sonore, Auralic, etc.   

Mike1951 posted:

Connecting s "Raspberry Pi"  sounds like a good low cost option. 

Do I just buy one, box it, connect and power it up?

I suspect there's more to it than that. Which input on the ND5XS, for instance? Any software needed? Will i need an ethernet cable junction box to feed in the Pi plus the router? And so on...

A tutorial would be useful, especially as I'm now contemplating amateurishly adding a bit of random hardware to a NAIM system who's "shortcomings", if I may say, I'm not completely impressed with, having had to spend such a large amount of cash to acquire in the first place.

...

Hardware wise you would need to connect an RPi to your wired LAN network and the SPDIF output of the DigiOne (HiFIBerry Digi+ Pro, USB to SPDIF interface, etc.) to the SPDIF input of your streamer. I never had a Naim streamer but I understand that NDS, ND5XS, etc. all have a SPDIF input. In this setup the device is then used as a pure dac.

Software wise you will have to setup a system running a UPnP renderer or a music player that supports Tidal (Qobuz, etc.). There are a number of possibilities doing so, ranging from dedicated distributions like Volumio, minimal distributions with support for ready-to-use audio applications like DietPi, Roon endpoints and plain Raspbian installations. I use the latter approach and, in a nutshell, this boild down to:

1. Installing Raspbian Lite and enable support for the Allo DigiOne (HiFiBerry Digi+ Pro, USB to SPDIF interface, etc.)

2. Installing upmpdcli (and upmpdcli-tidal, upmpdcli-qobuz, etc.) and setting up your Tidal (Qobuz, etc.) credentials.

3. Opening a control point (BubbleUPnP, Linn Kazoo, Lumin, etc.) on a mobile device and accessing Tidal, Qobuz, etc. via the interface integrated in the control point.

There are probably better ways of accessing Tidal, Qobuz, etc. on a Raspberry Pi platform than the one outlined above. I am not particularly interested in these services and I have meanwhile de-installed upmpdcli-tidal and upmpdcli-qobuz in my current setup. 

Moderated Post: NBPF, I have edited a paragraph of your post.  Please ensure your posts comply with forum rules.  Thanks.

So I've had a look on Amazon and there's a couple of Auralic devices. They are streamers in their own right.

Are you suggesting them as a replacement for the nd5xs or as a plug-in to provide buffering?

So I've got a bit further... I guess I'm replacing the streaming function of the ND5XS but retaining the DAC function, bridging to the preamp?

Need an iPhone for the control app...

Somebody stop me if I'm going the wrong way with this...