Tidal on my NAIM app doesn't work properly...

Mike1951 posted:

So I've had a look on Amazon and there's a couple of Auralic devices. They are streamers in their own right.

Are you suggesting them as a replacement for the nd5xs or as a plug-in to provide buffering?

I was not suggesting replacing the streamer but front-ending it with a RPi + Allo DigiOne, RPi + HiFiBerry Digi+ Pro, Sonore microRendo (plus USB to SPDIF bridge),  Auralic Aries Mini or similar.

The problem of front-ending Naim streamers has been also discussed in this forum in a slightly different context, see https://forums.naimaudio.com/topic/roon-with-nds.

Mike1951 posted:

...

It seems to me that this product was poorly thought out in the first place,  to not be able to do what rival manufacturers' streamers don't seem to have a problem with.

I never used Naim streamers but it seems to me that nDAC, NDS, ND5XS, etc. are actually great devices. In spite of being relatively old (things have been moving very fast in the last couple of years and internet streaming services were not very popular when these devices were designed), they are very simple and flexible, the nDAC in particular.

They can be easily front-ended with small devices that provide internet streaming services, Roon endpoints and all what is fashionable today. I actually like the engineering approach behing nDAC, NDS, ND5XS, etc. much more than the one behind the new Uniti range and I frankly do not understand why Naim has put so much efforts in supporting Tidal on these devices.

I would have preferred to see a small Naim Ethernet2SPDIF bridge that can be easily upgraded to support flawless playback of the most popular current and upcoming internet, Roon, etc. streaming services. With such a small device, Naim users fond of Roon, Tidal, Qobuz, etc. would have been able to make their nDACs, NDSs, ND5XSs Roon-ready, Tidal-ready or Qobuz-ready via a seamless Naim interface.

" I was not suggesting replacing the streamer but front-ending it with a RPi + Allo DigiOne, RPi + HiFiBerry Digi+ Pro, Sonore microRendo (plus USB to SPDIF bridge),  Auralic Aries Mini or similar."

Great, so.... The Aries Mini sits between the router and the ND5XS. Am I now using the Aries to access Tidal and Radio, or the ND5XS still?

And yes, It would have been nice to see  development of a NAIM box to do this job, but I don't think the resultant sales would have covered the development costs. Beside which, they'd want to push new buyers on to the next iterations like the Uniti...

And still selling the ND series stuff when it's obviously no longer up to the job seems a little sleazy.

Mike1951 posted:

Great, so.... The Aries Mini sits between the router and the ND5XS. Am I now using the Aries to access Tidal and Radio, or the ND5XS still?

...

You would use the Aries Mini. In this setup, the ND5XS would act as a passive DAC, fed by the SPDIF output of the Aries. Please, keep in mind that you would not be able to use the Naim app to control the Aries. You would have to use a UPnP control point to control the Aries and the Naim app to control the ND5XS. Of course, you could also disconnect the ND5XS from you network and just use the Aries to send both Tidal and local streams to the DAC section of the ND5XS. I have never used an Aries Mini or a ND5XS. Thus, take my remarks with a grain of salt. Best, nbpf  

Tha Aries Mini has its own DAC, so you could use it into your amp without the ND5XS if you wanted to. How it compares for sound quality, I couldn't say.

I think I'm almost decided on a "passive Aries" and "active" ND5XS. 

I'd like hear from anybody who's gone this route first,  though...

Mike1951 posted:

I think I'm almost decided on a "passive Aries" and "active" ND5XS. 

I'd like hear from anybody who's gone this route first,  though...

Does Tidal streaming via your mobile phone work flawlessly in your wireless? If so, you could simply connect your phone to the ND5XS and use the Tidal app on the phone to stream Tidal contents. I do not know whether the ND5XS has a USB input you can connect your phone to. But you could always connect the phone to the ND5XS via a Meridian Explorer. This is much cheaper than an Aries Mini and is a small, portable device. It can be used as a headphone amplifier but also as a USB to SPDIF interface. It has both electrical and optical SPDIF outputs. 

Jack From Adelaide posted:

As I understand it Naim recommends a CAT6 connection. I went to the trouble of getting an electrician in to put in a proper CAT6 cable and nice connections at both ends. Another tip is that every cable that you use, from the cables at the Modem end and the cables in your music room have to all be CAT6 or "bad things" will happen. I wish an actual Naim person would weigh in and tell us what is actually going on instead of having to guess at it ourselves.

Hi Jack,

We recommend using a wired Ethernet connection wherever possible - using either a wireless Ethernet connection or Ethernet over Mains wiring is always a compromise and cannot be guaranteed to be consistently reliable. From our perspective there is no specific advantage to using a CAT6 (or CAT7) cable over a CAT5e as even a CAT5 (as opposed to CAT5e) is capable of supporting more than enough bandwidth for streaming 24/192 audio. For any diagnosis of issues with either breaking up of streaming audio or connectivity we would always ask the customer to temporarily connect their streamer(s) to their network via a wired ethernet connnection rather than via WiFi or Ethernet Over Mains to remove that variable from the equation...

As far as "what is going on" ... we are not aware of any specific issues relating to the implementation of TIDAL streaming that are affecting users overall. Issues affecting individuals do seem to be related to excessive latency between them and the source servers - of course the awaited 4.5 update does have some additional buffering tweaks (these are already in the Mu-so and Qb 1.5 firmware) which should make the streamers more forgiving of higher latency connections but it isn't a cure-all and for anyone anyone who is having TIDAL streaming and who contacts us then we do make that Beta firmware available to them as an option that they can try, however, as it isn't yet signed off for final sound quality then we won't just blanket release it. That firmware is applicable to Uniti / Uniti2 / UnitiLite / SuperUniti / NAC-N172 / NAC-N272 / ND5XS / NDX / NDS and as a Beta is available in English only.

Best

Phil

That is good news. I will corral the ducats and await 4.5 in eager anticipation.

It's good to hear that NAIM are applying themselves to the problem. I suppose these things are a bit like trying to turn around a tanker at sea when the passengers expect a catamaran maneuvre.

At least I've got a fall-back position of calling in the mercenaries if the heavy brigade still get stuck in the swamp...

Thanks Phil.

The NAIM app on the phone just controls what's going on inside the ND5XS. 

I'll try it though. Any port in a storm and all that...

Mike1951 posted:

The NAIM app on the phone just controls what's going on inside the ND5XS. 

I'll try it though. Any port in a storm and all that...

I think nbpf is talking about the Tidal app not the Naim app.

best

David

Oh right.  That's a cracking suggestion. I'll get hold of a cable and try it out.

One if those "now why didn't I think of that"...

Yes no yes.

When I was over at Wenger2015s place the other week I was flicking through the Tidal app and it said it detected his Qb. I could stream directly from there. I this only available on the Muso and newer models or would it work for Mike on his ND5XS if he switched to a wireless connection? 

Ive not tried this out on my 272 as it’s hard wired and so I haven’t put the Ariel on. I could try in the morning though. 

Finkfan posted:

When I was over at Wenger2015s place the other week I was flicking through the Tidal app and it said it detected his Qb. I could stream directly from there. I this only available on the Muso and newer models or would it work for Mike on his ND5XS if he switched to a wireless connection? 

I'm guessing that it was connecting via Airplay, which the Musos have, but not the other Naim streamers.

Ah right. Gotcha 

Just had a look at the manual.  It says that the USB port on the front panel should not be used for anything other than a USB stick.

This seems to preclude the "Tidal app on a mobile " solution? 

Should I use one of the connections on the back panel? 

I assume the M. Explorer would be plugged into my preamp, rather than the nd5xs.

Mike1951 posted:

Just had a look at the manual.  It says that the USB port on the front panel should not be used for anything other than a USB stick.

This seems to preclude the "Tidal app on a mobile " solution? 

Should I use one of the connections on the back panel? 

I assume the M. Explorer would be plugged into my preamp, rather than the nd5xs.

The chain would be: mobile phone (with OTG support) => Meridian Explorer => Electrical or optical SPDIF cable => ND5XS electrical or optical SPDIF input.

I don't know which manual you're reading, but mine says 'NDX/5XS incorporates a front panel USB interface socket that enables audio files stored on USB memory devices
and Apple iPod and iPhone models to be selected and played.'

So... music streamed from a Tidal account on a mobile phone isn't "audio files stored on (a) USB memory device"...

Phil Harris posted:

Jack From Adelaide posted:

As I understand it Naim recommends a CAT6 connection. I went to the trouble of getting an electrician in to put in a proper CAT6 cable and nice connections at both ends. Another tip is that every cable that you use, from the cables at the Modem end and the cables in your music room have to all be CAT6 or "bad things" will happen. I wish an actual Naim person would weigh in and tell us what is actually going on instead of having to guess at it ourselves.

Hi Jack,

We recommend using a wired Ethernet connection wherever possible - using either a wireless Ethernet connection or Ethernet over Mains wiring is always a compromise and cannot be guaranteed to be consistently reliable. From our perspective there is no specific advantage to using a CAT6 (or CAT7) cable over a CAT5e as even a CAT5 (as opposed to CAT5e) is capable of supporting more than enough bandwidth for streaming 24/192 audio. For any diagnosis of issues with either breaking up of streaming audio or connectivity we would always ask the customer to temporarily connect their streamer(s) to their network via a wired ethernet connnection rather than via WiFi or Ethernet Over Mains to remove that variable from the equation...

As far as "what is going on" ... we are not aware of any specific issues relating to the implementation of TIDAL streaming that are affecting users overall. Issues affecting individuals do seem to be related to excessive latency between them and the source servers - of course the awaited 4.5 update does have some additional buffering tweaks (these are already in the Mu-so and Qb 1.5 firmware) which should make the streamers more forgiving of higher latency connections but it isn't a cure-all and for anyone anyone who is having TIDAL streaming and who contacts us then we do make that Beta firmware available to them as an option that they can try, however, as it isn't yet signed off for final sound quality then we won't just blanket release it. That firmware is applicable to Uniti / Uniti2 / UnitiLite / SuperUniti / NAC-N172 / NAC-N272 / ND5XS / NDX / NDS and as a Beta is available in English only.

Best

Phil

Hi..  

It does seem that Naim is not particularly strong with software applications.

Maybe a contract with a cutting-edge software company may be the way forward ?? A company that can keep NAIM  more in touch with new innovation within software design. I noticed Felsic Capacitors being used in Hi Cap units recently. I believe they are made in China ?? So some outsourcing is happening... 

Mike1951 posted:

That is good news. I will corral the ducats and await 4.5 in eager anticipation.

It's good to hear that NAIM are applying themselves to the problem. I suppose these things are a bit like trying to turn around a tanker at sea when the passengers expect a catamaran maneuvre.

At least I've got a fall-back position of calling in the mercenaries if the heavy brigade still get stuck in the swamp...

 

I like the Analogy Mike .. Software problems seem to be the meat and two Veg of Naim Forum space.

[@mention:69708705449680009] - thanks for taking the time and trouble to post your fix for Tidal woes - specifically eliminating non-alphanumeric characters from one's Tidal password. I tried it and it seems to have worked to some extent with my SuperUniti. I feel for the Naim support guys trying to fix issues like this - there are just so many potential factors to eliminate when fault finding. I found myself blaming recent updates to iOS11 and assumed that the Naim app hadn't been updated to ensure compatibility - I note that it's just been updated today to version 5.8, to "ensure seamless integration with iOS11." That didn't fix the problem however - whereby the Tidal stream stops within a few seconds of starting.

I was then planning to investigate the ISP/network latency issue flagged up by many users, but that made relatively little sense given that my wireless MuSo was having relatively few issues, using the same login. I believe therefore that there's a combination of factors going on here, and Phil's recent post re beta firmware for older generation Naim streamers may be part of the answer. It seems that the latest generation Uniti products may have been designed from the outset with much bigger buffers to work around lately issues. 

I should add that I have BT Infinity 2 with >60 Mbps. Appreciate that latency is a separate issue.  

Should I be looking to upgrade to a Nova? Seems like a costly sledgehammer to crack a nut, especially as my SuperUniti is perhaps 18 months old, and I suspect I'll have to pony up £2K in a trade-in scenario... 

Having had some problems with my Tidal service especially with dropouts and albums just stopping mid flow I have done much reading about the subject and when I came across this thread here I recognised many of the problems being experienced. I no longer have a Naim system and am now all Linn but things over on the dark side are not any different when it comes to using Tidal or any other like music source. As fas as I can make out the majority of problems seldom have anything to do with our equipment and are the generally the fault of your telephone company or the modem they have supplied you. Yes there are the odds and sods of an app problem or even an equipment fault, that is always possible of course but like it or not we in the UK are in the hands of BT or whoever for wherever you live and until they sort things out to be 100% perfect we always will be. 

I'm in Spain.