Tidal on my NAIM app doesn't work properly...

Update: previous to above comments about appropriate "Cat" rated cabling, I had installed a Cat7 cable between the ND5XS and the router with immediately improved results.

Since then,  I have connected the LAN output of the modem to the LAN input of the router with an equally astonishing audio improvement over the bog standard Cat5 that the WISP had put in for me.

All the usual stuff - leading edge of bass drum beats more clearly defined, bass more coherent and musical, detail and staging plus all the other "hifi"  presentation tricks improved...

Following this, in my view going the extra mile and putting in top-grade ethernet cabling is not only preferable, it's mandatory!

Too early to tell yet if it's going to have an effect on Tidal dropout but I'll let you know.   

I very much doubt that the Cat7 spec of your new cable is of any importance. I won't dispute that different Ethernet cables can produce subtle differences in sound, but the higher performance of Cat7 itself is beyond what's required for optimum performance, as is Cat6. The general consensus is that Cat5e is sufficient.

It could be that your old cable was either very poor quality, or faulty. There could have been an invisible internal fault, a poor connection, or even just a tight bend. It's always worth checking the 'minimum bend radius' of an Ethernet cable and keeping to it.

Mike1951 posted:

Update: previous to above comments about appropriate "Cat" rated cabling, I had installed a Cat7 cable between the ND5XS and the router with immediately improved results.

Since then,  I have connected the LAN output of the modem to the LAN input of the router with an equally astonishing audio improvement over the bog standard Cat5 that the WISP had put in for me.

...

I think that the consensus is that a Naim streamer should be better connected to a router via a switch rather than through a direct connection. 

I am not arguing that ethernet cables cannot have an impact on sound quality but I would not expect "astonishing" improvements from replacing Cat5 with Cat7 cables. Such a result would indicate a rather poor (very sensitive to its feed) streamer and the ND5XS is a very good streamer indeed. Perhaps a broken cable in your previous setup?

Says you.

nbpf posted:

I think that the consensus is that a Naim streamer should be better connected to a router via a switch rather than through a direct connection.

<<SNIP>>

Assuming that the router itself is working correctly then there is no valid networking requirement for this to be required - if the router is proving to be unreliable or a bottleneck (usually more of an issue with routers that implement switches in software) then routing unnecessary traffic away from them can obviously be an advantage.

Any "improvement in sound quality" discussions relating to using separate switches really should be regarded in the same vein as improvements in sound quality due to audiophile Ethernet cables.

nbpf posted:

<<SNIP>>

I am not arguing that ethernet cables cannot have an impact on sound quality but I would not expect "astonishing" improvements from replacing Cat5 with Cat7 cables. Such a result would indicate a rather poor (very sensitive to its feed) streamer and the ND5XS is a very good streamer indeed. Perhaps a broken cable in your previous setup?

I suspect that the "Audiophile Ethernet Cables" discussion is one that will run and run ... it's certainly one that gets brought up to me when I'm at dealer events and usually results in a lengthy discussion...

Phil

I don,t doubt there are sound differences, but if I am listening to Spotify or Tidal via virginmedia fibre, the signal may have travelled for hundreds of miles on industrial quality cabling. Can someone explain why it then has to be audiophile after my router? Is there a technical reason, just interested.

Mike1951 posted:

Says you.

Que?

So, Phil...  If the new firmware update incorporating a change to the Tidal/NAIM interface is being "tested for sound quality", I suppose it's reasonable to assume that connectivity is AOK. 

Any idea how long it's going to take for the sound quality to be deemed acceptable and we can download it with a view to resolving this horrendous situation?

Mike1951 posted:

Just had a look at the manual.  It says that the USB port on the front panel should not be used for anything other than a USB stick.

This seems to preclude the "Tidal app on a mobile " solution? 

One old-school workaround (pre-Tidal or Spotify activation in the Naim app) is to connect your iPhone to the front panel USB, start playing any local music file via the Naim app, then use the iPhone screen to change to the Tidal app and launch whatever album or playlist you'd like to hear. From here on, the Naim app is volume control and input select only (pause and resume might work, can't recall), while the Tidal app is for searching, selecting, and playing tracks of interest.

What would be cooler, of course, is for the Naim app to have access to all local iPhone content, not just stuff visible in the iPhone Music app... playing audiobooks (now in the Books app), or podcasts (now in the PodCast app) or library materials (in the Overdrive app) and downloaded Spotify or Tidal or RadioParadise or anything else you might get have each in their own app data store, well, that would be awesome! and would help turn iPhones into a much more useful source for Uniti equipment old and new. The sunk cost of having the Apple Approved USB input would reap a whole new set of rewards... I haven't seen any sort of reaction to this suggestion from Naim (either on the Beta forum or from @Phil Harris

Regards, alan

In the meantime whilst awaiting the 4.5...

I'm using Spotify's premium (320kbps) option. Two hours of play back and not a single dropout.

Sound quality is not tip top but hey! - I'm tapping my feet and I've stopped foaming at the mouth. 

I've also downgraded my Tidal account to their own 320 version and I'll do a comparison when that happens. I'm also mindful that Spotify are working on a lossless service which may fair better on the ND5XS than the Tidal lossless. 

I've also ordered a lead to see if I can hardwire my Tidal music straight into the ND5XS from my mobile device. 

I'm in the process of down-sizing my speakers that I bought with me for a smaller listening room when I moved and that should reap dividends with audio quality anyway.

One way or another,  it's got to be better than all the expense involved in hitting the upgrade trail again with NAS or another CD player or the like as wrangled about in the other thread.

Mike1951 posted:

So, Phil...  If the new firmware update incorporating a change to the Tidal/NAIM interface is being "tested for sound quality", I suppose it's reasonable to assume that connectivity is AOK. 

Any idea how long it's going to take for the sound quality to be deemed acceptable and we can download it with a view to resolving this horrendous situation?

Hi Mike,

Unfortunately I don't know that ...

Phil

Mike1951 posted:

I'm in Spain.

Wish I was in Spain ' at least you have the weather..

Garry posted:

Mike1951 posted:

I'm in Spain.

Wish I was in Spain ' at least you have the weather..

I was in Spain last week. It rained (even though we weren't on the plain).........

best

David

Phil Harris posted:

Mike1951 posted:

So, Phil...  If the new firmware update incorporating a change to the Tidal/NAIM interface is being "tested for sound quality", I suppose it's reasonable to assume that connectivity is AOK. 

Any idea how long it's going to take for the sound quality to be deemed acceptable and we can download it with a view to resolving this horrendous situation?

Hi Mike,

Unfortunately I don't know that ...

Phil

Well, here's hoping the sound quality passes muster.

I had no problems - then tidal updated their app and dropouts start - so its shoddy work at tidal, which I swear sounds worse than Spotify now - I think they are transitioning to headphone style compression at this point in an attempt to make themselves more relevant to their intended listeners - the New Yorker subway riders - who certainly don’t own any HIFI

"Misery loves company".  I have more $ in my naim components than I have in both my cars, and they are new.  My music source is Tidal, and I have dropouts all the time. I am hard wired and have good internet.  My tv and everything else works great, never any dropouts. Also, the internet radio can play for days with no proplems.  The problem is always with Tidal using the Naim app with my playlist, no matter if my playlist consist of 1 song or 99.  I don't want lps or cds, if I would have known about these issues at the beginning of this quest, I would never have purchased the first piece.  At least I'm not alone in my suffering.  

I re-did my wiring and seperated the ethernet from everything else and no dropouts since - I was really very surprised how sensitive my ethernet cable was to crosstalk - very very surprised.

On the point of dropping Tidal completely, lossless or not.

I rebuilt my Spotify account ("Premium") and re-jigged my Tidal account to their 320kbps equivalent to do a test of which might be better and to see if the Tidal one played without dropouts, as does Spotify.

When I go direct to Tidal, it tells me that I now have the cheaper service, but when I try and stream through the NAIM app, it tells me my account is inactive. 

This is just SO BORING! Time for NAIM to consider ditching it's partnership with this increasingly rubbish company and going for maybe Qobuz or even Deezer for it's lossless functionality.

Pfft! Eeeecchhh! Bleurgh! Etc...

Have you tried logging out of Tidal on the naim app and logging in again? 

Yep.

So I was fiddling and faffing about, jumping back and forth between the Tidal and Tidal-on-NAIM apps and I suddenly got a page that asked me to confirm my new "Premium" 320 OV account "High" setting. It is the "Tidal" functionality in the NAIM app "settings"...

So - user error after all. Red-faced embarrassed emoticon thingy.

Now I can get Tidal to stream via the ND5XS! Huzzah!!

The sound quality is definitely better than the Spotify equivalent - more open and detailed and "present", as it were.

Not only that, but there's no dropout. This suggests that the problem sits with trying to stream 1044kbps files...

Get that sorted with the firmware update and I may go back to giving Beyonce and her blokey twice as many Euros again, but I'm sitting here quite happily listening to Brand X "Product - Rhesus Perplexus" and enjoying all the track's delicate nuances without feeling deprived.

Smiley-faced relieved emoticon thingy...

Carry on, chaps.

Jack From Adelaide posted:

As I understand it Naim recommends a CAT6 connection. I went to the trouble of getting an electrician in to put in a proper CAT6 cable and nice connections at both ends. Another tip is that every cable that you use, from the cables at the Modem end and the cables in your music room have to all be CAT6 or "bad things" will happen. I wish an actual Naim person would weigh in and tell us what is actually going on instead of having to guess at it ourselves.

Hi,

Actually we don't specifically recommend CAT6 - we only require CAT5e and I don't think we have ever specifically recommanded any particular cabling type.

As far as TIDAL dropouts are concerned then as I have said up here on the forums before we have a firmware in Beta that should help address some issues with excessive latency causing problems (4.4.72) and that is available to try if you drop me an email (Windows updater only).

Unfortunately if it's anything else that is an issue then we cannot "fix" the internet as a whole and so if that firmware doesn't address the issue then there isn't a whole lot more that we can do. Does the unit exhibit the same issues at the dealers?

Phil

The reason I know it’s a naim problem and not Tidal is due to the fact that I use Tidal,  the same playlists,  for my car, boat, and another audio system.  I NEVER have a single dropout.  The drops only happen with this wonderful $100k naim system. So Phil, it’s not an internet problem it’s a naim problem. 

Zackwater posted:

The reason I know it’s a naim problem and not Tidal is due to the fact that I use Tidal,  the same playlists,  for my car, boat, and another audio system.  I NEVER have a single dropout.  The drops only happen with this wonderful $100k naim system. So Phil, it’s not an internet problem it’s a naim problem. 

My Tidal on Naim is like weather, some days sun shines some days it rains, some days it is partly cloudy... you never know....  more i stream more i buy CDs and records  

you never know, i have a all good cables, fast internet etc, i am streaming 4K movies with apple TV and Netflix without a blink...

Zackwater - I assume then that your car and boat use the same network as your naim system? If so, you might have a point.