Chromecast on Uniti Atom - Gapless playback

Thanks David

Roon seems to do audio playback flawlessly, but it does not allow for Qobuz integration to stream things I haven't purchased and downloaded.

Audirvana naturally allows me to stream items I've downloaded from Qobuz to a folder or direct via the internet if browsing things I've not purchased - I wondered if the internet streaming was introducing an overhead for each track if they weren't pre-fetched compared to stuff in a local folder.  Sounds as though you are getting gapless streaming from the internet not local files.

Was this solution already mentioned here? Try to install "Bubble UPnP Server" on your NAS. Set it up as a proxy for your streamer in the Bubble UPnP Server settings. Remember to check the "gapless playback" checkbox. And then use the Bubble UPnP app (Android) or Lumin or Kazoo app (iOS) to stream to the proxy (that is called "... (Openhome)" where "..." is the name of your streamer).

This solution works quite good. Though on my NAS (Synology DS213+) it works not perfectly. I think the NAS is a little bit too slow and/or has not enough RAM. I want to get a better one soon, not only for streaming qobuz.

Thanks for the suggestion Gert - unfortunately I don't yet have a NAS that would allow me to do this - I plan to get one in time, but have other priorities for my cash currently.

[@mention:71539985729025468] Yes, I am streaming Qobuz albums I haven't purchased directly from the internet. This morning I repeated the test for gapless using the same Qobuz album "The Dark Side Of The Moon" with the red label top left:

1. IOS Qobuz App > Chromecast Audio > Mu-so digital input
GAPS BETWEEN TRACKS
The Chromecast is connected via Ethernet (not Wi-Fi) to the local network and internet, and is sending a digital stream via a TOSLink cable to the Mu-so. My understanding is that when you play an album via Chromecast, the Qobuz app sends it a list of tracks. The Chromecast then fetches these tracks from the internet. The IOS app is no longer involved and even if you shut down your iPhone, the album plays to the end.

The downside is that there are short gaps between tracks (0.5 to 1s) while the Chromecast fetches the next track. This is quick on my set up but still very obvious on an album like this which was designed as a continuous stream of music. For conventional albums with gaps between tracks, the extra gap isn't usually noticeable

2. MacOS Audirvana Plus v3 > Qobuz > Mu-so UPnP input
DEFINITELY NO GAPS BETWEEN TRACKS
The iMac is connected via Wi-Fi. Audirvana is pulling the FLAC stream from Qobuz on the internet, buffering it internally, doing some internal magic and then sending it as a UPnP stream to the Mu-so (which is connected to the network via Ethernet). If you shut down Audirvana, the music stops immediately.

I have a Qobuz Sublime subscription and both solutions can stream the HiRes albums I have purchased from the internet. With the Audirvana solution you can check that this is the case from the Naim app Now Playing screen which shows the sample rate.

Audirvana is good solution for Mu-so. I can't say whether it would work with Uniti Nova.

david

gert posted:

Was this solution already mentioned here? Try to install "Bubble UPnP Server" on your NAS. Set it up as a proxy for your streamer in the Bubble UPnP Server settings. Remember to check the "gapless playback" checkbox. And then use the Bubble UPnP app (Android) or Lumin or Kazoo app (iOS) to stream to the proxy (that is called "... (Openhome)" where "..." is the name of your streamer).

This solution works quite good. Though on my NAS (Synology DS213+) it works not perfectly. I think the NAS is a little bit too slow and/or has not enough RAM. I want to get a better one soon, not only for streaming qobuz.

I hadn't realised until recently that BubbleUPnP Server can be installed on macOS. I tried this today, transforming the Mu-so into an OpenHome Renderer with gapless playback, and allowing it to be recognised by (for example) Linn Kazoo which supports Qobuz and Tidal. Within a few minutes I was streaming the same Qobuz "The Dark Side Of The Moon" album mentioned above to the Mu-so and confirmed that playback was gapless. As [@mention:18461704845049549] says, this is another possible solution.

BubbleUPnP Server also does interesting things with Chromecast Audio but the documentation stresses that the created renderers "do not support gapless playback".

Thanks again David your iOS tests replicate mine and are expected by all accounts.

I can't fathom why Audirvana won't do gapless to the Uniti Nova if it does to Muso.  I may contact the developer as app seems buggy and often can't find the Nova or drops connection whereas Roon and various iOS device connections are fine - could be network I know but troubleshooting this kind of thing is a nightmare and it may just be something that can be tweaked in Audirvana - incidentally I'm runnning El Capitan not Sierra/High Sierra.

When I have time I may try to use Bubble.

Hi [@mention:71539985729025468]

I'm interested because I've been thinking of getting a Uniti Nova 

There is one thing you could try. In Audirvana, while connected to Nova, you can capture details of the connection from the Audirvana Plus menu, choosing item Debug Info... This pops up a window with info you can Copy with a button at the bottom. Paste this into a text editor and search for the string Gapless. In the Mu-so info I found this section:

DLNA 1.5: Yes
Gapless playback: Yes
Can play native DSD: No
Number of channels: 2

It will be interesting to know what the Nova reports.

david

Hi David

I've been looking at that tab earlier.

No idea if it's the recent Roon compatible firmware update or not, but the Nova is not being recognised by Auidrvana+ unless I unplug/replug ethernet on the Nova, whereas Roon and iOS Naim apps find it without fail.

Even rebooting the Mac in case it was Roon hogging access did not help.

I then booted into High Sierra on an external and again Nova not getting detected after a fresh Audirvana+ install.

Uplugged Nova ethernet and replugged and it's being seen.

Looking at Audirvana+ Blog page talking about 3 beta forum, it looks as though there are lots of compatibility issues:

Network players known to work (from your feedbacks)

• Quote

Post by damien » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:27 pm

Preferred device: Living room Model UID:Naim Audio Ltd. Living room UID:uuid:<edit>

Selected device:

UPnP device at http://192.168.1.198:43873/<edit>.xml

ID 0x0 Living room Manufacturer:Naim Audio Ltd.

Model UID:Naim Audio Ltd. Living room UID:uuid:<edit>

6 available sample rates up to 192000Hz

44100

48000

88200

96000

176400

192000

Volume control: No

Auto-detect MQA devices: No

Not a MQA device, user set to not MQA

DSD capability: Raw DSD (MSB)

Preferred stereo channels L:0 R:1

Channel bitmap: Ox3, layout:

Channel 0 mapped to 0

Channel 1 mapped to 1

UPnP/DLNA supported protocols:

http-get:*:text/xmlLNA.ORG_PN=DIDL_S

http-get:*:audio/vnd.dlna.adtsLNA.ORG_PN=HEAACv2_L2_320

http-get:*:audio/x-ms-wmaLNA.ORG_PN=WMAFULL

http-get:*:audio/x-ms-wmaLNA.ORG_PN=WMABASE

http-get:*:audio/3gppLNA.ORG_PN=HEAACv2_L2_320

http-get:*:audio/mp4LNA.ORG_PN=HEAACv2_L2_320

http-get:*:audio/l16;rate=48000;channels=1LNA.ORG_PN=LPCM

http-get:*:audio/l16;rate=48000;channels=2LNA.ORG_PN=LPCM

http-get:*:audio/l16;rate=44100;channels=1LNA.ORG_PN=LPCM

http-get:*:audio/l16;rate=44100;channels=2LNA.ORG_PN=LPCM

http-get:*:audio/mpegLNA.ORG_PN=MP3

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:text/xmlLNA.ORG_PN=DIDL_S

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/vnd.dlna.adtsLNA.ORG_PN=HEAACv2_L2_320

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/x-ms-wmaLNA.ORG_PN=WMAFULL

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/x-ms-wmaLNA.ORG_PN=WMABASE

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/3gppLNA.ORG_PN=HEAACv2_L2_320

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/mp4LNA.ORG_PN=HEAACv2_L2_320

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/l16;rate=48000;channels=1LNA.ORG_PN=LPCM

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/l16;rate=48000;channels=2LNA.ORG_PN=LPCM

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/l16;rate=44100;channels=1LNA.ORG_PN=LPCM

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/l16;rate=44100;channels=2LNA.ORG_PN=LPCM

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/mpegLNA.ORG_PN=MP3

http-get:*:audio/vnd.dlna.adts:*

http-get:*:audio/x-wav:*

http-get:*:audio/l16;rate=44100;channels=1:*

http-get:*:audio/x-m4a:*

http-get:*:audio/x_pm_flac:*

http-get:*:audio/l16;rate=44100;channels=2:*

http-get:*:audio/mpeg:*

http-get:*:text/xml:*

http-get:*:audio/aiff:*

http-get:*:audio/ogg:*

http-get:*:audio/x-dsf:*

http-get:*:audio/l16;rate=48000;channels=1:*

http-get:*:audio/l16;rate=48000;channels=2:*

http-get:*:audio/x-flac:*

http-get:*:audio/x-dff:*

http-get:*:audio/x-ms-wma:*

http-get:*:audio/m4a:*

http-get:*:audio/wav:*

http-get:*:audio/wave:*

http-get:*:application/ogg:*

http-get:*:audio/mp4:*

http-get:*:audio/aac:*

http-get:*:audio/3gpp:*

http-get:*:audio/flac:*

http-get:*:audio/vorbis:*

http-get:*:audio/x-aiff:*

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/vnd.dlna.adts:*

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/x-wav:*

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/l16;rate=44100;channels=1:*

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/x-m4a:*

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/x_pm_flac:*

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/l16;rate=44100;channels=2:*

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/mpeg:*

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:text/xml:*

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/aiff:*

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/ogg:*

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/x-dsf:*

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/l16;rate=48000;channels=1:*

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/l16;rate=48000;channels=2:*

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/x-flac:*

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/x-dff:*

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/x-ms-wma:*

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/m4a:*

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/wav:*

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/wave:*

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:application/ogg:*

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/mp4:*

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/aac:*

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/3gpp:*

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/flac:*

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/vorbis:*

rtsp-rtp-udp:*:audio/x-aiff:*

DLNA 1.5: Yes

Gapless playback: Yes

Can play native DSD: Yes

Number of channels: 2

Use as stereo device only: No

So at least Gapless is theoretically supported!

What's the best route to contact Damien? Forum or is there a contact on the webpage these days? (I should have an old email from him if I can dig it out too).

Well gapless is no go from local files or internet streams on High Sierra either - it looks to me as though Audirvana is not preloading/buffreing the next track soon enough and waits until the end of the current track to start the process.

I contacted the Audirvana team who suggested I send some logs regarding stability issues.

They suggested that it is probably the Nova failing to implement gapless via UPnP by buffering the upcoming track in advance.  It would be interesting to test with a different UPnP software.  I think Roon can be discounted as it uses the RAAT protocol recently added to the Unitis to allow them to work with Roon.

.... They suggested that it is probably the Nova failing to implement gapless via UPnP by buffering the upcoming track in advance.

Yes! And this is what the weird Chromecast protocoll should do but doesn't.

My Nova plays gapless via UPnP on Asset from my NAS, via Roon, and via Tidal with no problem.  I haven't used Chromecast or Audirvana but I can't see how it can be a Nova/UPnP issue.

Pev posted:

My Nova plays gapless via UPnP on Asset from my NAS, via Roon, and via Tidal with no problem.  I haven't used Chromecast or Audirvana but I can't see how it can be a Nova/UPnP issue.

Thanks Pev, much appreciated.  My Nova does lossless from an old WD MyCloud Nas, I'm not certain if there's a difference between the Nova playing by 'pulling' from the NAS and an audio player 'pushing' a playlist to the Nova via UPnP.

There are so many permutations that troubleshooting can be bewildering!

I may need to take Tidal for a spin.

I'm not sure how significant "pushing" vs "pulling" is but I believe that the Nova accessing music from Asset on my NAS would be pulling whereas Roon is pushing and both work for gapless. 

I would encourage you to try Tidal (free trial available) - on my system it sounds almost indistinguishable from ripped CDs and there is also quite a lot of  MQA available now. I used to use Qobuz and preferred it to Tidal, but Tidal has raised its game in recent months, at least in relation to the types of music I like. I was looking forward to Chromecast on the Nova so I could revert to Tidal but I doubt that I'll bother now.

Absolutely makes no difference at all.. down at the media level and network transfer level the idea of push or pull is irrelevant. The concept of UPnP push or pull comes from the higher level application control architecture.

When it comes to gap less or cross fading, if one pulling, this processing is done by the renderer, if pushing this is done by the media server... but pushing can be fraught  with challenges for gapless, so pulling tends to work better with gapless and cross fading... as the renderer can open two streams around the media edge points so as to be able to seamlessly mix... this is what Naim does.

I'm also suspicious of the idea of pushing a media stream to a Naim device.  Fortunately there is a simple test that will often detect if this is really the case.

Play a file (i.e. a track), and press pause, then resume playback.  if however there are glitches on resume  (ticks, clicks, little bits missing etc.) that suggests that the device doesn't have local control of the stream's position (i.e. the stream is being pushed).  However, if it does this several times without a glitch, that suggests that the device actually has control of the stream and is best thought of as "pulling" the stream,

If there are no glitches what the controller may be doing is pushing the playlist (or a reference to a playlist it can read) to the device (this is the normal way that Naim streaming devices work anyway) and the device uses this playlist to create an internal play queue.  The device then works through the play queue, requesting the stream from the file using the DLNA server to generate the stream for it.  To play a single track like this it creates a play queue with only one entry.

The problem with Chromecast is that most Chromecast apps aren't written to work this way.  They don't play a complete playlist as a single entity, instead they treat the playlist as a set of separate individual files.  For each file they tell the Chromecast library to open the connection to the Chromecast, open the file, play it and then close its connections when its finished.  For the next file in the list they have to start opening the connections all over again.  It's entirely possible to play gapless using Chromecast, but it requires the app developer to do more work, so they just don't do it.

It's likely that with some UPnP devices or network set-ups Audirvana is taking a similar approach, telling the device to open and play files one at a time rather than pushing a playlist.

Thanks Huge.

Hope I'm not confusing everyone with the semantics of push/pull, but in essence I was trying to differentiate between the streamer requesting the stream from a URI or list of them using 'pull' to describe this vs a server elsewhere rendering and 'pushing' the stream to the Naim to play.

It's interesting to discuss the ways DLNA/UPnP can work as I'm learning where the problems ca lie and how they might be solved.

The Audirvana developer replied to a query suggesting that with its UPnP implementation that the Naim is getting the track list from Audirvana but not 'pulling' the next track soon enough to play back gapless - if that's the case I hope that Naim can modify the firmware to allow this, were it an issue with Audirvana rendering the stream for playback there'd almost certainly be a software solution at their end.

The thread has drifted somewhat from playing gapless via Chromecast (Qobuz iOS App for me) to trying to use Audirvana which has Qobuz/Tidal support on the Mac to access my Qobuz service to play non-purchased content by internet streaming only.  (For purchased files, I'd prefer to have them on a USB device or NAS, it's the non-purchased gapless albums that are posing the problem).