Who has a Balanced Audio Transformer on their mains for their naim system?

Given that this is relatively affordable (very favourable compared to certain power leads) why is their use not more main stream if the results are as good as claimed? Is it just because they are big, heavy and unsightly? If I get one it's going in the garage where my MCB is so not really an issue.

Huge posted:

audio1946 posted:

at least the VA  OF THE TOTAL VA of the load of naims plus alittle extra 10%

That's the electrical engineering minimum; in reality that will limit the dynamics of the sound produced.

Consider 3kVA as the minimum for SQ, and 5kVA as preferable.

I spoke to the Airlink person. He recommended taking  the total VA of your system, doubling it and rounding up to the nearest available. In my case, the NAP 300 is over 740VA and the other stuff (Supercap, 555, Armageddon) are far lower. I could get away with 2000VA, therefore, but 3000VA would be better.

Part of the attraction of of a balanced PS is it would resolve any safety issues associated with my TT spike (although the Airlink guy said I am already safe because the supply earth and TT aren't connected). I (actually, my electrician) could cut into the hifi supply in the loft and put in an AIrlink. Alternatively, I could plug in one of their audio balanced power supplies. The latter have filtering, however and don't appear to have been tried by anyone here.

Keith

Huge posted:

audio1946 posted:

at least the VA  OF THE TOTAL VA of the load of naims plus alittle extra 10%

That's the electrical engineering minimum; in reality that will limit the dynamics of the sound produced.

Consider 3kVA as the minimum for SQ, and 5kVA as preferable.

Hi Huge,

That makes sense but is there any advantage going beyond to say 7.5kVA or 10kVA as the price increase is minimal. Does the additional headroom provide advantage or is it just wasted?

Thanks

Robert Burgess posted:

I've got this: https://www.corepowertechnologies.com/  feeding my system which includes a N272 & 250DR. It really made a very big improvement in clarity, background level, bass extension and smoothness.

Sorry what have you got?

The deep core ?

Roughly how much are the pls ?

Thanks

I got the equicore 1800, $1,400 on sale

Muttonjef posted:

Huge posted:

audio1946 posted:

at least the VA  OF THE TOTAL VA of the load of naims plus alittle extra 10%

That's the electrical engineering minimum; in reality that will limit the dynamics of the sound produced.

Consider 3kVA as the minimum for SQ, and 5kVA as preferable.

Hi Huge,

That makes sense but is there any advantage going beyond to say 7.5kVA or 10kVA as the price increase is minimal. Does the additional headroom provide advantage or is it just wasted?

Thanks

 

yes allow the VA  Alttle over the total, ,but a large transformer will have a large power loss which may increase the heat loss.  the large the transformer will have more Noise...motors and transformers  running lightly loaded will be less efficent

Huge posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

DaveBk posted:

I have the 10kVA Airlink with multiple taps. My incoming mains is fairly high at around 246V, so I use the 250v tap and drop the output to around 230V (it's lightly loaded so the secondary runs a little high). Hum banished, noise floor lowered, no impact to PRAT. 

Hi Dave, I can understand the DC offset being lowered, but I can't see how using a transformer can affect the noise floor ... unless the noise was the DC offset? Are you able to explain? HF noise (what some call 'hash') obviously couples across a transformer, perhaps you have some sort of filtering as well?

Simon, if there's an interwinding, then the HF coupling is substantially reduced.  Even without an interwinding, the inductance of the transformer windings still, to some degree, selectively increases the source impedance of the HF coming through the secondary.

Hi Simon, my comment was based on observation rather than engineering, but Huge's reply makes sense to me. Airlink do use a copper foil screen in their toroids I believe.

Huge posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

DaveBk posted:

I have the 10kVA Airlink with multiple taps. My incoming mains is fairly high at around 246V, so I use the 250v tap and drop the output to around 230V (it's lightly loaded so the secondary runs a little high). Hum banished, noise floor lowered, no impact to PRAT. 

Hi Dave, I can understand the DC offset being lowered, but I can't see how using a transformer can affect the noise floor ... unless the noise was the DC offset? Are you able to explain? HF noise (what some call 'hash') obviously couples across a transformer, perhaps you have some sort of filtering as well?

Simon, if there's an interwinding, then the HF coupling is substantially reduced.  Even without an interwinding, the inductance of the transformer windings still, to some degree, selectively increases the source impedance of the HF coming through the secondary.

Huge, I was talking about HF/RF coupling rather than the specific HF induced voltages through the transformer which will decrease with frequency since we are talking HF and RF.  I have been  looking at this further and the idea of HF filtering gets a little vague from the manufacturers of some of the balanced transformers other than some specifically use HF filtering conditioners and use of of varistors to absorb the energy of pulses on the mains. 

DaveBk posted:

Huge posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

DaveBk posted:

I have the 10kVA Airlink with multiple taps. My incoming mains is fairly high at around 246V, so I use the 250v tap and drop the output to around 230V (it's lightly loaded so the secondary runs a little high). Hum banished, noise floor lowered, no impact to PRAT. 

Hi Dave, I can understand the DC offset being lowered, but I can't see how using a transformer can affect the noise floor ... unless the noise was the DC offset? Are you able to explain? HF noise (what some call 'hash') obviously couples across a transformer, perhaps you have some sort of filtering as well?

Simon, if there's an interwinding, then the HF coupling is substantially reduced.  Even without an interwinding, the inductance of the transformer windings still, to some degree, selectively increases the source impedance of the HF coming through the secondary.

Hi Simon, my comment was based on observation rather than engineering, but Huge's reply makes sense to me. Airlink do use a copper foil screen in their toroids I believe.

Dave indeed, but this might have very little to do with RF removal, but more about moving low frequency unbalanced mode noise on the mains with respect to live and neutral and helping isolate ring main earth loop noise... and that is what I was querying... if you have a noisy relatively low impedance supply, I can see balanced transformers really coming into their own... they effectively 'transform' the noise from between  L and N to between LN combined and earth.... but I think with Naim using devices with HF filters with respect to earth will be very important to maximise SQ... and I suspect the devices aimed at audiophiles will do this.

Matthew Johns posted:

DaveBk posted:

I have the 10kVA Airlink with multiple taps. My incoming mains is fairly high at around 246V, so I use the 250v tap and drop the output to around 230V (it's lightly loaded so the secondary runs a little high). Hum banished, noise floor lowered, no impact to PRAT. 

Hi quick question (as also looking to get a dedicated mains installed) did you have the balanced power supply connected downstream from your standalone consumer unit and what MCB trip amp rating did you use?  

Thanks

 

mat 

 

 

 

I have the usual henley block to split the tails and a dedicated consumer unit. There's a 63A Type D MCB in this, which just serves to protect the 10mm cable running to the transformer. The Transformer has a D40 MCB mounted in the case to protect the transformer primary. Type Ds are used as the transformer will have a relatively high inrush current when it is first switched on. It does have a thermal surge arrester, but belt and braces... The output from the transformer is protected by a 40A 30mA RCBO.

KRM posted:

Huge posted:

audio1946 posted:

at least the VA  OF THE TOTAL VA of the load of naims plus alittle extra 10%

That's the electrical engineering minimum; in reality that will limit the dynamics of the sound produced.

Consider 3kVA as the minimum for SQ, and 5kVA as preferable.

I spoke to the Airlink person. He recommended taking  the total VA of your system, doubling it and rounding up to the nearest available. In my case, the NAP 300 is over 740VA and the other stuff (Supercap, 555, Armageddon) are far lower. I could get away with 2000VA, therefore, but 3000VA would be better.

Part of the attraction of of a balanced PS is it would resolve any safety issues associated with my TT spike (although the Airlink guy said I am already safe because the supply earth and TT aren't connected). I (actually, my electrician) could cut into the hifi supply in the loft and put in an AIrlink. Alternatively, I could plug in one of their audio balanced power supplies. The latter have filtering, however and don't appear to have been tried by anyone here.

Keith

Hi Keith, there are no safety issues with a TT  installation using properly validated and checked electrodes to your property. I have benefitted from my TT installation for several years with only improvements compared to my previous PME... (less tingles from taps with wet feet on wet floor etc). The issues can arrive when there is a combined TT and PME earthed supply  in close physical proximity to each other. I am not sure I follow the logic of using a balanced transformer to improve safety... the safety earth will be the safety earth come what may. 

Yes increasing the power rating of your balanced transformer effectively lowers its impedance to match closer to that of your supplied mains... and as we know Naim amps / equipment like to see as lower mains impedance as they can.

Simon, interesting, I'll need to think about this further.

From my experiments and observations, putting a DM suppression cap between L&N on the mains feed to Naim gear is what causes the biggest loss of 'energy' in the sound from Naim equipment when used with the simple 'mains conditioners'.  I've found ZnO varistors to have no noticeable effect.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

 

 

 

Hi Keith, there are no safety issues with a TT  installation using properly validated and checked electrodes to your property. I have benefitted from my TT installation for several years with only improvements compared to my previous PME... (less tingles from taps with wet feet on wet floor etc). The issues can arrive when there is a combined TT and PME earthed supply  in close physical proximity to each other. I am not sure I follow the logic of using a balanced transformer to improve safety... the safety earth will be the safety earth come what may. 

Yes increasing the power rating of your balanced transformer effectively lowers its impedance to match closer to that of your supplied mains... and as we know Naim amps / equipment like to see as lower mains impedance as they can.

Hi Simon,

My brother suggested a balanced PS because it isolates the PME from the TT (although there is already no direct connection because the supplier earth is not connected at the socket). The Airlink chap seemed to agree.

In a bid to end the contradictions I'm considering converting my system to gas powered!

Keith

Well, with all this talk of the merits of balanced mains I decided to get one of the Airlink standard balanced power supplies: https://airlinktransformers.co...power-supply-bps2000

As my system comprises the 272/555 combination and 250 power amp I figured the 2000va rated one would be more than sufficient.  It arrived this morning and on first listening I'm amazed at the improvement I'm hearing.  I was a little concerned that PRaT would be affected but it does not appear so and the whole soundstage appears to be more solidly defined, bass has more authority without being louder, and none of these improvements at the expense of musical cohesion. 

Another thing that concerned me when deciding to try it was whether the unit would make an intrusive hum.  I'm glad to say that my unit is very silent (need to put my ears right up to it to hear any transformer hum) and my PS555 appears quieter too (not that it was overly loud but I used to hear audible hum from it when standing next to the equipment rack, not any more - I now have to put my ears up to the 555 to hear the transformer working).

I'm scratching my head that what is a £340 upgrade, when VAT and shipping is included, can make such a marked improvement and that it is not almost a de-facto upgrade heralded by those that have one.  I have read that over time I should expect things to improve further which will only add to the VFM of what is such a simple and painless (dare I say it) upgrade. 

Of course, I might be suffering from some form of placebo effect so I will keep the Airlink  in my system for a month and then remove it to see whether the changes I believe I am hearing are really all positive - to my ears that is - I don't have measuring equipment and I'm not qualified to wear a white coat I'm afraid.

It's not a placebo. Balanced power has the unique opportunity to greatly reduce mains borne hash before it even makes it into the power supplies. I would much rather lash out for the equivalent price of a couple or three Powerlines and get a heroic sized balanced power transformer- which objectively does things that no mere power cord can or will ever do. It is at LEAST the equivalent of a Hi-to-Supercap type of upgrade per component, and benefits every component, so its effects are multiplicative instead of just additive. 

ALANBASS1

Did you fit this without a dedicated feed to your hifi system? - so it simply plugged into a nearby socket on your regular ring main?

I currently need 4 mains feeds (2x hicap, 2x nap) for which i use a 4x hydra cable.

Would i therefore need 4 sockets on a BPS & be rid of the hydra cable? Or would i still use the hydra cable in between the BPS & naim boxes? (They don't appear to do anymore than 2 sockets in the BPS range).

Would the conditioning balanced units (CBS) do an even better job as opposed to the standard unit (BPS)?

alanbass1 posted:

Well, with all this talk of the merits of balanced mains I decided to get one of the Airlink standard balanced power supplies: https://airlinktransformers.co...power-supply-bps2000

As my system comprises the 272/555 combination and 250 power amp I figured the 2000va rated one would be more than sufficient.  It arrived this morning and on first listening I'm amazed at the improvement I'm hearing.  I was a little concerned that PRaT would be affected but it does not appear so and the whole soundstage appears to be more solidly defined, bass has more authority without being louder, and none of these improvements at the expense of musical cohesion. 

Another thing that concerned me when deciding to try it was whether the unit would make an intrusive hum.  I'm glad to say that my unit is very silent (need to put my ears right up to it to hear any transformer hum) and my PS555 appears quieter too (not that it was overly loud but I used to hear audible hum from it when standing next to the equipment rack, not any more - I now have to put my ears up to the 555 to hear the transformer working).

I'm scratching my head that what is a £340 upgrade, when VAT and shipping is included, can make such a marked improvement and that it is not almost a de-facto upgrade heralded by those that have one.  I have read that over time I should expect things to improve further which will only add to the VFM of what is such a simple and painless (dare I say it) upgrade. 

Of course, I might be suffering from some form of placebo effect so I will keep the Airlink  in my system for a month and then remove it to see whether the changes I believe I am hearing are really all positive - to my ears that is - I don't have measuring equipment and I'm not qualified to wear a white coat I'm afraid.

hi alan,

i too have the bps 2000 running from non-dedicated mains (next job on my list now my room been refurbished) and did the leave the bps in and then remove it from system just to check sq, conclusion was it definitely sounds better running with off the bps 2000

went for this model as didn't have any additional conditioning components 

intend to get a dedicated mains then another bigger airlink bps which will keep in the garage

been impressed by their build quality too, it is built like the proverbial tank

anyhow do the test yourself and see what you conclude

Matthew

I take it you only need to power 2 boxes?

no whole system runs off it i use a powerline to a matrix wirewolrd 2 strip, just totalled up the total VA i needed for my system and ensured had plenty of head room with the BPS i chose 

thanks

mat 

I see, so bin the hydra?

Or would that be just as good as the strip?

Just measured my mains voltage - 250.

I hear the magic number is 230.

This bps can reduce to 230V?

Hi ARB76, some Airlink BPS have multiple output taps which allow you to step the voltage up or down in 10-12Volt steps. Mine has this feature. 

However, many don't have this feature so best to check with Airlink via phone or email before you choose the right model for you. 

Hope this helps, FT

Thanks ft.

I don't see many mentioning the conditioning and balancing units, just the latter. Don't bother with conditioning?

I went with the recommendation of Airlink's Engineering Director, which doesn't have any conditioning bells or whistles. It's just a huge BPS (5kVA) with multiple output voltage taps. These enabled us to drop the voltage from a measured 242V at the wall socket to 230V, as per Naim's recommendation.

It does the job. Best regards, FT