The Evolving Naim Sound!

Why, Allante, the "Naim Sound" is the sound of music, of course.

Oh, OK, too easy, so let's consider who determines how Naim kit should perform; It all has to be signed off by Naim's longtime technical director, Roy George who has been the "keeper of the Naim sound" for almost 40 years. 

Although it will be a very sad day when Roy eventually decides to retire, I'm looking forward to seeing to whom he passes the baton. I'm told that whoever it is will not only have to be completely steeped in Naim-lore - all the little bits of knowledge and insight that have been gleaned over the years in making Naim kit perform as well as it does - but they will also have to prove their mettle over a tough series of tests  over a period of months and perhaps even years.  The most exciting thing is that Naim has a good number of possible candidates who have been at the very heart of product development for a number of years. So whoever it turns out to be, the "naim sound" will be in the best possible hands for the future.

I understand Roy George voiced the Nait 2....

I think also there a number of very capable engineers in Naim : to my ears the Superlumina cables are very much Naim sounding cables, taking the best features of the older generation Naim cables and getting rid of all their weaknesses.

Not sure who worked on those, but for instance I think Steve Sells worked on the classic preamps upgrade 102-202 / 82-282 and 52--> 252 and to my ears did a very good job there.

Similarly the DAC V1 to my ears is a very  Naim sounding DAC-Preamp. Same with NDAC.... Also Cd555, and NDS.

I'm sad too about the day when Roy George retires, and but hopefully for us Naim fans - I think the blue prints are already there and have been so for 40 years?.... 

I have to say though it takes an obsessive level of detail to make a Naim product, a lot more difficult than it seems on the outside?

I also have to commend the patience of the engineers who carry out 1000's of hours of listening test - it is very tiring.... and not easy to concentrate hearing the same piece of music over and over again.

Certainly, Naim is musically coherent, convincing and capable of nailing timing like few others.  But a Naim sound?

Every Naim pre amp, speaker, power amp and source component I’ve heard and/or owned sounded different. A 552/500 sounds nothing like a 252/300 or a 552/300.  All lovable, all enjoyable but not imbued with a house sound.  A 282/250 doesn’t sound remotely like a 252/300 and the 200/202 sounds different again.  No two sources sound the same and the speakers were and remain  a very wide and eclectic family.

If it was possible to point at something without looking and say “yes, that’s a Naim system all right, it’s sounds like one”, then one could only be referring to some kind of distortion or colouration. Of course, it’s more complex than that and there’s plenty of colouration throughout the range.

The 152 is incredibly sloppy and coloured. Yet it is gigantic fun to listen to. You can’t help smiling and loving it because it seems to hook you so easily into the music and make sense of it. Just like my old Exposure X used to. An amp which was said to be “Naim like”.

Look at the difference in presentation between a CDX2 and CDS3, both absolutely superb CDPs. Which one of these has the "Naim sound"? They can’t both have. They sound too different. But they can both hold a tune, lock onto the timing and exercise a vice like grip. Despite sounding so different.

Where is the best place to find this Naim sound ?  At the lower end of Naits or the upper end of the classics ?   Since we all want to get closer to the recorded original or perhaps not !!

For me it's nothing to do with 'dark' or 'bright', or 'coloured', or 'transparent' or 'detailed' or 'PRaT'.

No it's simply that it 'draws me in' to the sound; it makes me want to listen to another album or symphony or concerto, then another, then another...

@ ALBA, You are very perceptive, Initially I did perceive it wrong, but After I read it thoroughly,I got it!

A team effort, but the major players were Paul & George, and after reading 2011, I was expecting more of the differences between the Era's!

Flat Earth-----------------0----------------Round Earth

Very Kind and Considerate!

But Richard did assure us whoever it turns out to be, the "Naim sound" will be in the best possible hands for the future.

I have been through entry level Olives (CDs and pre/powers), Unitii2, 202/282/252, 200/250/250DR, NDX/NDS and various power supplies and I am not sure what the 'Naim/house' sound is, assuming it exists. All I know is that I have enjoyed the journey and have got something from each and every upgrade.

The problem is that I have no other comparators (i.e. other hifi manufacturers) during this journey. Yes I had the obligatory Rega TT/NAD 3020/A&R A60 and a few other classics of the time but this was before I started listening to Naim gear. So I don't really have anything else to compare my Naim systems to. Naim is all I really know other than superficial auditions of other manufacturers' gear at HiFi shows and dealer demos and you can't really get a fix in those environments.

It might sound a little cliched, but what I value most is the ability of a system to connect you what an artist is trying to communicate and what emotions musicians and vocalists are trying to convey. The biggest buzz I get is when I suddenly understand a meaning from a piece of music, often because I suddenly have heard clearly the vocals of a track and the emotions behind those vocals, or a nuance of how an instrument is being played. I was listening to a track this evening and suddenly realised it was about the agonies of a prostitute's life. Of course the whole meaning of the track was brought to life and so poinoint it was too and very emotional. I have observed these kind of revelations as a result of pre amp upgrades, but all components play their part here I believe. After all we are listening to a system and it is often the synergy that system displays that creates the magic (IMHO).

All I know is that the system I have ended up with is hugely entertaining and (as Huge and others have said) draws you into the music. It is engaging and satisfying. Not perfect, but pretty damn good. Whether it is PRaT, inner detail, control, dynamics, inky blackness () or any another descriptor you care to ascribe to the Naim sound, I really don't know or care. I simply enjoy the experience of listening to my system. I suspect however that if I had to go back to those early Naim systems I owned, I would now be rather disappointed. The ears and the brain get rather spoilt the more they are fed with better and better quality aural stimuli.

I am not sure I have added anything to the debate but these are my ramblings for what they are worth.

nigelb posted:

I have been ....

{The problem is that I have no other comparators (i.e. other hifi manufacturers) during this journey. Yes I had the obligatory Rega TT/NAD 3020/A&R A60 and a few other classics of the time but this was before I started listening to Naim gear. So I don't really have anything else to compare my Naim systems to. Naim is all I really know other than superficial auditions of other manufacturers' gear at HiFi shows and dealer demos and you can't really get a fix in those environments.}

It might sound a little cliched, but...

All I know is that the system I have ended up with is hugely entertaining and (as someone else said) draws you into the music. It is engaging and satisfying. Not perfect but pretty damn good. Whether it is PRaT, inner detail, control, dynamics, inky blackness () or any another descriptor you care to ascribe to the Naim sound, I really don't know or care. I simply enjoy the experience of listening to my system. I suspect however that if I had to go back to those early Naim systems I owned, I would now be rather disappointed. The ears and the brain get rather spoilt the more they are fed with better and better quality aural stimuli.

I am not sure I have added anything to the debate but these are my ramblings for what they are worth.

Very good point negelb!

I really only have two systems, the third is in the rec-room for individuals who would commit someone spending more than a Grand on System!

But two Systems keep me grounded, and Both are decent!

(Cdx2>282>HCDR>Passive Tri-Amped Briks)

(Primare Pre 30> Arcam P1 Mono Blocks>

Vienna Acoustics Baby Grands)

The latter sounds more hi-fi, like a real nice Stereo System.

Really Enjoyable!

The former sounds more like the musicians are in the Living-room.

Some prefer the Family Room, others the Living-Room.

It's all good, I would say The Baby Grands are more Round Earth, whilst the Briks lean towards Flat Earth!

But what do I know, I just Enjoy My Music & The Forum!

Allante93!

Who determines the Naim Sound, and what is the Naim Sound?

Just joined Naim, going on my third year.

Back in 2011, a particular member responded:

"My ears tell me that the Naim 'sound' has changed over the years.

{Perhaps in line with who does the sign off?}

Personally I first heard Naim in 1979, and really enjoyed the Chrome gear; which I continue to do.

Found the Olive slightly  .....sharp?

Thought the current ranges were a return to form .....I KNOW that many people will disagree with these statements.

My main point is that the Naim voicing has changed."

Back then Mr. Richard pointed out that it was a team effort, but the major players were George and Paul.

Another particular gentleman responded:

""I agree that the naim sound has changed 

Naim systems that i heard in the late l990's  had a sterile sound

{All the latest gear has a much fuller warmer more natural sound}

I believe the sound has evolved for the better and will appeal to more audiophiles
and music lovers."

Coming from an Full Blow Linn Aktiv System, the Adjectives that came to mind for me, was Richer & Thicker!

Comparing Karin/ LK 280s vs 282/250.2s

Allante93!

I heard my first Naim rig in 1999 and bought a Joule Electra Output Tranfsormerless tube rig and a Naim CDS2 CDP instead.    That older Naim rig sounded flat l but it made good music.  I had been used to Mark Levinson.   The tubes sounded wonderful, if a little fiddly.  When JE went out, I bought a Naim rig to match my CDP.  I had been so happy with the CDP that I did not even shop around.   That Naim transition was completed in 2014 I think.  I was surprised that it sounded much like my tube rig only quieter and with tighter and lower bass.     My wife prefers the Naim sound to the tubes because it is quieter and just as involving, and it does not require a variac.     I built the Naim system we have, one or two boxes at a time.    It actually sounds better than the tubes, offering the best of tube highs and the best of solid state in the bass registers.   The Joule Electra and Naim are about equal in the PRAT department, but when you learn to love it, you can't do without.  To avoid boutique tube audio with the comparable sound, I had to go with Naim.   I came very close to buying Crimson Electronics which have a lot of appeal to me, but are a little too boutique for me now.   My friend just bought an Olive Nait 2 on Audiogon, and he is very happy with the sound, and believes it sounds familiar to my more ambitious set up.   Not alike, but of the same house. 

Of course there is a house sound at Naim.   The music is constant but the customer's needs change.  I have likened Naim to Porsche in other posts.  The Naim sound evolves with the customer and the music, much like the Porsche evolves.  The customer has the same interest over a long period of time.  I am no expert on Naim and its competitors but Porsche compares itself to the others in the market and tries to position itself to get the business from the BMW, Mercedes and Land Rover refugees.  Both brands are subject to evolution driven by the competition and the customer.   I believe Naim and Porsche both know their customer well.    I am actually happier with the new offerings from Naim than the new turbo Porsches.

Harry posted:

Certainly, Naim is musically coherent, convincing and capable of nailing timing like few others.  But a Naim sound?

Every Naim pre amp, speaker, power amp and source component I’ve heard and/or owned sounded different. A 552/500 sounds nothing like a 252/300 or a 552/300.  All lovable, all enjoyable but not imbued with a house sound.  A 282/250 doesn’t sound remotely like a 252/300 and the 200/202 sounds different again.  No two sources sound the same and the speakers were and remain  a very wide and eclectic family.

If it was possible to point at something without looking and say “yes, that’s a Naim system all right, it’s sounds like one”, then one could only be referring to some kind of distortion or colouration. Of course, it’s more complex than that and there’s plenty of colouration throughout the range.

The 152 is incredibly sloppy and coloured. Yet it is gigantic fun to listen to. You can’t help smiling and loving it because it seems to hook you so easily into the music and make sense of it. Just like my old Exposure X used to. An amp which was said to be “Naim like”.

Look at the difference in presentation between a CDX2 and CDS3, both absolutely superb CDPs. Which one of these has the "Naim sound"? They can’t both have. They sound too different. But they can both hold a tune, lock onto the timing and exercise a vice like grip. Despite sounding so different.

Hmm interesting, as an experiment I tried Uq2 into some modest speakers, then NDAC/552/500 into the same modest speakers.

The 500 series was held back by the speakers, but was more spacious, 3D and refined

But I found they played music in exactly the same way....

I tried the Nait 5i against 272/nap250dr and was surprised at how good the 5i was .... it had a clarity and funky drive that is terrific value. The further you go up the chain the more clarity and drive you get ..... most Naim gear seems to love reproducing live music recordings...for some reason....

I agree completely about live music.Before I used NAIM,I avoided live recordings,simply because they usually sounded bad.Now I prefer live recordings by a large margin.

more clarity yes

more drive? I think they are all consistent in this way - depending on speaker loads.

The evolving Naim sound is nothing but the improvement in relation to the best possible way to reproduce music.

The only evolution has to do to with electronics able to play files, streaming etc. 

Re drive .... disagree .... the further up you go the better the leading edge and speed .... especially in low to mid base .... and of course more detail and transparency. The 5i still holds a very good illusion of clarity .... and if partnered with sympathetic speakers is pretty much unbeatable for the price .... I would think the Atom will continue this....

Re live music ... i am the same .... used to avoid it .... now love it....

analogmusic posted:

Harry posted:

Certainly, Naim is musically coherent, convincing and capable of nailing timing like few others.  But a Naim sound?

Every Naim pre amp, speaker, power amp and source component I’ve heard and/or owned sounded different. A 552/500 sounds nothing like a 252/300 or a 552/300.  All lovable, all enjoyable but not imbued with a house sound.  A 282/250 doesn’t sound remotely like a 252/300 and the 200/202 sounds different again.  No two sources sound the same and the speakers were and remain  a very wide and eclectic family.

If it was possible to point at something without looking and say “yes, that’s a Naim system all right, it’s sounds like one”, then one could only be referring to some kind of distortion or colouration. Of course, it’s more complex than that and there’s plenty of colouration throughout the range.

The 152 is incredibly sloppy and coloured. Yet it is gigantic fun to listen to. You can’t help smiling and loving it because it seems to hook you so easily into the music and make sense of it. Just like my old Exposure X used to. An amp which was said to be “Naim like”.

Look at the difference in presentation between a CDX2 and CDS3, both absolutely superb CDPs. Which one of these has the "Naim sound"? They can’t both have. They sound too different. But they can both hold a tune, lock onto the timing and exercise a vice like grip. Despite sounding so different.

Hmm interesting, as an experiment I tried Uq2 into some modest speakers, then NDAC/552/500 into the same modest speakers.

The 500 series was held back by the speakers, but was more spacious, 3D and refined

But I found they played music in exactly the same way....

 

Yes. The same kind of presentation. The same musical emphasis, for want of a better description.  Naim are good at this and also good at engineering  volumes of clarity and realism for a given price point.  But they don't all sound the same. Not remotely. We are possibly coming at the same thing from two directions.

In the 1980s my impression of the "Naim sound" was one of ruthless, scrubbed clean treble, light bass and recessed mid. I heard system after system in homes and shops that had this fatiguing signature. Then I heard an Olive system, fronted by a CDS, backed by SBL. which had been carefully set up by a music lover who enjoyed fine tuning and attention to detail. It was (and I expect still is) one of the best sounding systems I've heard.. It didn't have what I thought of as the "Naim sound" at all. It just played music. Beautifully.

My first Naim acquisition was in 2001, when I needed a new CDP. The back story is another long yarn in itself. The end result was that after two afternoons of being bored and disappointed at the dealer, a CD5 had us up and dancing around the room. A subsequent CDX2 didn't sound remotely the same. At least twice as much detail for a start. Ditto the DAC, with and without various power supplies. But the presentation, the way they communicated, was addictive and had a familiar kind of presentation, driven a lot by timing. Which is not the only thing Naim does well but seems to be one thing that many other manufacturers don't do well. . Few Naim components I've heard since have failed to achieve this kind of insight. 

During a transition period some years back, we paired our 552/300 to our little Spendor S5e speakers. They sounded absolutely wonderful. We had no idea they could do what they did. They obviously were the limiting component of the system, but since they sounded incalculably better than they ever had previously, it was no hardship to live with them for a year while we chose new speakers.

Richieroo posted:

Re drive .... disagree .... the further up you go the better the leading edge and speed .... especially in low to mid base .... and of course more detail and transparency. he 

That's another thing. The edges. Where notes start and stop. Where there is silence in the sound stage. Hugely different at different levels in the range. But all good. You never feel short changed. Naim are clever here.

While I agree with some of the comments on here about the difference in the sound between an entry level piece of kit and the top end. I think they all have a certain level of signature about how the music is being presented. 

I still remember when I first auditioned the Naim system at that point in time as compared to the Linn system. The Linn system sounded very analytical and more like listening to music in the back row of the audience. And when I listened to the Naim system it sounded very much musical and like I was in the front row of the audience. And I feel that difference is there across the range. You have more frontrow, more musical, more PRAT, then other system. At the same time you have less of this typical hifi traits which you normally have.

So at shows I sometimes have this feeling about being somehow impressed by the hifi tricks of some of the other systems, but at the same time realizing that I miss some directnesss which Naim provides me. Since I have my current system and the room acoustics in place. I really need to hear a 200k+ system to be impressed. Systems like the AVM and MBL systems which are very very fine...

If Naim didn't exist I wouldn't have any trouble living with and loving a Linn streaming system. The only thing that consistently leaves me cool about Linn is the neatness of the presentation. It seems to come with a bow tied around it. Even playing badly recorded Punk, it is easy for me to envisage a conductor waving a baton in the studio. Maybe I think this because I am now so used to how Naim seems to get into the guts of things.

Harry posted:

If Naim didn't exist I wouldn't have any trouble living with and loving a Linn streaming system. The only thing that consistently leaves me cool about Linn is the neatness of the presentation. It seems to come with a bow tied around it. Even playing badly recorded Punk, it is easy for me to envisage a conductor waving a baton in the studio. Maybe I think this because I am now so used to how Naim seems to get into the guts of things.

The first time I Heard Naim, was with the Isobariks, late 80,s, I guess.

My Friend, and owner were elaborating on how efficient the Briks were, being driven by an 30 Watt Naim Amp!

I wasn't familiar with Naim, but obviously, they were.

When I reflect back, I get it!

That was a cozy relationship between Linn & Naim.

Linn took care of the Front & Rear, Whilst Naim took care of the Middle.

After 30 years with Linn & 3 Years with Naim, I can see where Naim Amps, can be gut grabbing! 

Don't get me wrong, LP 12/ Ghenki,Kairin, Bingo Card, LK 280s, Briks, were sublime!

Reflecting back, the LK 280s, lacked the punch that Julian's Amps possess.

Linn is noted for its contribution to the turntable, Naim is noted for it's contribution to the Amps.

Allante93!

PS. Throw in Dave & Kudos

One can't go wrong! 

Right Analog! LOL....

Bert Schurink posted:

While I agree with some of the comments on here about the difference in the sound between an entry level piece of kit and the top end. I think they all have a certain level of signature about how the music is being presented. 

I still remember when I first auditioned the Naim system at that point in time as compared to the Linn system. The Linn system sounded very analytical and more like listening to music in the back row of the audience. And when I listened to the Naim system it sounded very much musical and like I was in the front row of the audience. And I feel that difference is there across the range. You have more frontrow, more musical, more PRAT, then other system. At the same time you have less of this typical hifi traits which you normally have.

 

So at shows I sometimes have this feeling about being somehow impressed by the hifi tricks of some of the other systems, but at the same time realizing that I miss some directnesss which Naim provides me. Since I have my current system and the room acoustics in place. I really need to hear a 200k+ system to be impressed. Systems like the AVM and MBL systems which are very very fine...

Point on Bert!

109K Alexx, Wilsons new kid on the Block, combined with D' Agostino's Mono Blocks!

Wilsons Seminar!

Allante93! 

This is an interesting thread, and I hope it will bring out more about the 'Naim sound', perhaps to complement some of the things said on other threads such as the exploration of foot tapping desires.

Of significance here is that although I did have an ND5XS, I gather it is the preamp in particular that is the key contributor, and I have never heard a Naim amp - so I have no personal direct knowledge of what the  sound is like. However, fom the bulk of what I have read, mostly on this forum, I am strongly under the impression that it is a distinctive presentation that emphasises the parts of the music that convey the rhythmic information, or 'punchiness', some calling it a 'forward' sound, others hinting at an emphasis of mids and/or mid-bass, and that by virtue of concentrating on the timing cues it is not an accurate sound, where the amp simply puts out a bigger version of what went in.

Such descriptions suggest to me that I am unlikely to fall in love with the 'Naim sound' because emphasising one thing/part of the spectrum means something else relatively is diminished, which I simply do not want, especially in terms of frequency response. Rather similarly, I cannot imagine myself liking a speaker having a character of, say, Linn Kans, because to me the way other people describe the sound as 'fun' suggests they would sound flawed.

However, aspects of what I read do intrigue me, and I do have an interest in hearing a power amp, so one day when I have an opportunity I may indeed have a listen, though it is not something I will take a punt on buying without listening, especially as I think at least a 300 would be required for my speakers, and I don't feel moved enough for the major expedition it would take to do that from where I presently live. If that day does come, it would be tempting to take the opportunity to have a listen to a preamp as well, so at least I would know - but not one that would be unaffordable.

some electronics try to give a very neutral presentation, like accuphase, soulution, ayre...but to me it sounds a little boring or clinical or cold.  Naim has a character: urgency, immediacy, involvement, but can sound a bit edgy sometimes.  To go against this edginess,  i prefer speakers like sonus faber or apertura, and personally i use an all tube preamp which works perfectly with my nap 300dr.

For linn sound, i find it a bit too neutral and analytic.