The Evolving Naim Sound!

Just to clarify ..... in my opinion as an owner ... the trick naim pull of is to give you a very explicit clarity in the mid without sacrificing other aspects of pure frequency response. To me this clarity is not overly forward .... obviously as you move up the range everything improves. The closest thing that compared for me were my vtl valve power amps ..... they were wonderfully explicity clear and focussed in the mid and lost in timing of the base....they did not have a valve like sound ... (Manley was a genius). But remeber the naim power amps really must be used with a matching naim preamp....

IB,

I think to some extent you're being misled by the language most people use to describe the sound of amplifiers.  They don't have any ability to determine absolute quality by ear, so their judgements are all differential in nature (comparing the differences between different amplifiers) even though the language they use is phrased as though the by ear determinations are in reference to an absolute standard.

All amplifiers degrade the signal in all ways, the question is the balance of those degradations.  It's difficult for an amplifier designer to make an amp that's completely stable yet able to respond accurately to fast transient signals, particularly in the presence of larger more consistent signals composed of the sum of longer duration, relatively slowly changing sinewaves.  Preserving these tiny delicate signals is one of the strengths of Naim amps, and one that many others simply wipe out.  It's not that the Naim amps highlight them they simply preserve them better.  On the other hand some other amps preserve very small steady state signals better than some Naim amps.  This difference leads to Naim amps giving a better sense of timing, where as the other amp is more 'analytical' in its presentation.  Both are equally flawed in their own way.  In fact in psycho-acoustic terms, amps tend much more toward removal of subtle information from the signal than they do to adding in artificially created pseudo-information; in fact the brain is very good at making allowance for, and ignoring, the things like harmonic distortion and noise that amps do tend to add to the signal.

If you do choose to listen to a Naim power amp, please also listen to it with a Naim pre amp in the system as well... That may surprise you!

In terms of powering the EB1is, yes a NAP300DR is comparable in price and probably also appropriate in quality (although I got mine s/h for £4k), but I can't see any particular reason why a NAP250DR wouldn't drive them successfully, unless they are specifically really difficult speakers.

Innocent Bystander posted:

This is an interesting thread, and I hope it will bring out more about the 'Naim sound', perhaps to complement some of the things said on other threads such as the exploration of foot tapping desires.

Of significance here is that although I did have an ND5XS, I gather it is the preamp in particular that is the key contributor, and I have never heard a Naim amp - so I have no personal direct knowledge of what the  sound is like. However, fom the bulk of what I have read, mostly on this forum, I am strongly under the impression that it is a distinctive presentation that emphasises the parts of the music that convey the rhythmic information, or 'punchiness', some calling it a 'forward' sound, others hinting at an emphasis of mids and/or mid-bass, and that by virtue of concentrating on the timing cues it is not an accurate sound, where the amp simply puts out a bigger version of what went in.

Such descriptions suggest to me that I am unlikely to fall in love with the 'Naim sound' because emphasising one thing/part of the spectrum means something else relatively is diminished, which I simply do not want, especially in terms of frequency response. Rather similarly, I cannot imagine myself liking a speaker having a character of, say, Linn Kans, because to me the way other people describe the sound as 'fun' suggests they would sound flawed.

However, aspects of what I read do intrigue me, and I do have an interest in hearing a power amp, so one day when I have an opportunity I may indeed have a listen, though it is not something I will take a punt on buying without listening, especially as I think at least a 300 would be required for my speakers, and I don't feel moved enough for the major expedition it would take to do that from where I presently live. If that day does come, it would be tempting to take the opportunity to have a listen to a preamp as well, so at least I would know - but not one that would be unaffordable.

I know what you are trying to say. But I don't have the feeling that Naim is emphasizing parts and leaves other parts a bit in the back, at least not in the high end stuff of Naim. While I am perhaps also too much biased as I like the sound so much. 

Throughout the years I have started to realize that one can also get addicted to the wrong sound. For instance when I moved up the ladder I sometimes needed a bit of time as I liked a certain level of lack of precision I had at the lower end. The wow moments then started to flow in when I got more emerged into the new components and also when they got burned in more. A phenomena which is by the way also not completely accepted by all. 

I would also argue that the Naim sound is not perfect, but none of the systems are perfect. Like French rooster already mentioned there can be a certain edgyness which you need to be aware about and which you need to consider in the choice of the other components like speakers and cables.

But regardless of the sound signature. The best systems make you forgetting about hifi and connect you the best way to the music.

Huge just put it much better in words. And I would agree to what he is saying.

It's all trying to get to a result, and all have to make design decisions which present tradeoffs. And it's not just tradeoffs because of money, because even the most expensive electronics represent a trade off.

So everybodies choice is about which tradeoffs you like more at every price level.

Wow! This really is developing into a nice thread!

@ Innocent Surprised that you have never heard an Naim Amp, looked at your profile!

Should have known, An objective Scientist.

6.02 times ten raised to the 23rd power!

Thanks, makes me think I'm on the right track, Late MM .... Streaming.

@ Harry, I can tell we've spent some time with Linn!

Politeness vs Gut grabbing!

@ Bert, I remember the nice pictures, you shared With the Forum, earlier this year at Germany's Hi Fi Show, I think.

It's hard to beat an $30K worth of Naim Electronics, unless:

"Since I have my current system and the room acoustics in place. I really need to hear a 200k+ system to be impressed. Systems like the AVM and MBL systems which are very very fine..."

@ Rich, couldn't agree more:

"Just to clarify ..... in my opinion as an owner ... the trick naim pull of is to give you a very explicit clarity in the mid without sacrificing other aspects of pure frequency response. To me this clarity is not overly forward .."

Thanks to all, very informative, and shows how much we all have in common, despite being separated by the pond!

Enjoy your Music!

Allante93!

PS. I might have to get around to listening to Chords Dave!

Richard Dane posted:

Why, Allante, the "Naim Sound" is the sound of music, of course.............

Although it will be a very sad day when Roy eventually decides to retire, I'm looking forward to seeing to whom he passes the baton. I'm told that whoever it is will not only have to be completely steeped in Naim-lore - all the little bits of knowledge and insight that have been gleaned over the years in making Naim kit perform as well as it does - but they will also have to prove their mettle over a tough series of tests  over a period of months and perhaps even years.  The most exciting thing is that Naim has a good number of possible candidates who have been at the very heart of product development for a number of years. So whoever it turns out to be, the "naim sound" will be in the best possible hands for the future.

Very reassuring Rich!

Thanks!

Allante93!

French Rooster posted:

some electronics try to give a very neutral presentation, like accuphase, soulution, ayre...but to me it sounds a little boring or clinical or cold.  Naim has a character: urgency, immediacy, involvement, but can sound a bit edgy sometimes.  To go against this edginess,  i prefer speakers like sonus faber or apertura, and personally i use an all tube preamp which works perfectly with my nap 300dr.

For linn sound, i find it a bit too neutral and analytic.   

You dont really have the Naim sound with that tube preamp. I know "Vive la difference", but it doesn't turn an EAR into a Naim preamp.

I've tried Chord Dave into my 250, and also a Linn Preamp too, it isn't the Naim designed sound anymore

But to each their own, your money, your ears, your music, etc etc etc. 

analogmusic posted:

French Rooster posted:

some electronics try to give a very neutral presentation, like accuphase, soulution, ayre...but to me it sounds a little boring or clinical or cold.  Naim has a character: urgency, immediacy, involvement, but can sound a bit edgy sometimes.  To go against this edginess,  i prefer speakers like sonus faber or apertura, and personally i use an all tube preamp which works perfectly with my nap 300dr.

For linn sound, i find it a bit too neutral and analytic.   

You dont really have the Naim sound with that tube preamp. I know "Vive la difference", but it doesn't turn an EAR into a Naim preamp.

I've tried Chord Dave into my 250, and also a Linn Preamp too, it isn't the Naim designed sound anymore

But to each their own, your money, your ears, your music, etc etc etc. 

yes, you are completely right: i have not really naim sound. But i have the urgency and prat of naim with the openness and more true and rich tone colors of ear. 

The same with cables: i don't like hiline and powerline with naim. Even on my 300ps for nap 300dr and 555dr for nds, i use kharma power cords.  For interconnects, i use chord signature tuned array.

I am a bit of naim heretic:  i hope they will not burn me....

which speaker cable do you use....? 

I am not sure about trying to describe the Naim sound in terms of accuracy (or otherwise). My little system entertains me. I have found an all Naim system does this best for me. I can't ignore it when it's playing. I went round the houses before settling on Naim (Harry, I also had an Exposure X). Its equivalents for me might be a good action movie, beating the All Blacks at Twickers, or perhaps a fast decent on my road bike. First and foremost it is fun!

Stu

analogmusic posted:

which speaker cable do you use....? 

apertura tiny, but i will buy next kharma matrix reference speakers cables:  my dealer use them with naim amps and apertura speakers.

before i had naim naca 5...but the apertura tiny were more musical and gave me more details...

Huge posted:

For me it's nothing to do with 'dark' or 'bright', or 'coloured', or 'transparent' or 'detailed' or 'PRaT'.

No it's simply that it 'draws me in' to the sound; it makes me want to listen to another album or symphony or concerto, then another, then another...

Indeed Huge, that's the best description I've heard of what I'm hearing right now. I started with the NAP 175 and loved the detail, the new instruments, and the overall improvement over my previous power amp (McIntosh). But the 300 has been a real struggle for me to put into words, and you just did it in one sentence. I've been playing music round the clock for weeks. 

Huge posted:

It's difficult for an amplifier designer to make an amp that's completely stable yet able to respond accurately to fast transient signals, particularly in the presence of larger more consistent signals composed of the sum of longer duration, relatively slowly changing sinewaves.

I imagine this comes from ensuring both large and small signals fall within the amplifier's small-signal performance envelope. That is, the large signals don't push the dc operating point of the amplifier in such a way that the simultaneous tiny signals are treated differently from how they would be if passing alone. (wouldn't this be measurable as a loss of dynamic range?) Lots of headroom should do the trick. Is there more to it than that? I'm not implying there isn't, rather genuinely interested if you're familiar with the circuit techniques employed beyond the obvious one of increasing headroom.

Naim definitely has a house sound, you can hear it from the least expensive integrated to the top level 500 series. The more you spend, the more refinement and control you get, that's what I hear anyway.

I don't think there is a massive (there is that word again) difference in the way music is played going through the range, what you do get is just better control as you move up the Naim ladder of the speakers and more loudness capability without breaking up, clipping of the amplifier, but the overall sound is pretty much identical. So, I would disagree with what has been said about the massive sound differences.

I also cannot stand when the car analogy is used to describe the differences between stereo equipment, I never could see the logic in it.

In simplest of terms, you either like it, the Naim sound, or you don't. Don't over analyze it, just enjoy it!!  

badlands posted:

Naim definitely has a house sound, you can hear it from the least expensive integrated to the top level 500 series. The more you spend, the more refinement and control you get, that's what I hear anyway.

I don't think there is a massive (there is that word again) difference in the way music is played going through the range, what you do get is just better control as you move up the Naim ladder of the speakers and more loudness capability without breaking up, clipping of the amplifier, but the overall sound is pretty much identical. So, I would disagree with what has been said about the massive sound differences.

I also cannot stand when the car analogy is used to describe the differences between stereo equipment, I never could see the logic in it.

In simplest of terms, you either like it, the Naim sound, or you don't. Don't over analyze it, just enjoy it!!  

there are some little differences but globally i think you are right. 282 and 552 are not sounding the same as 252.  cdx2 and cd555 are different from cds3 and nds....

badlands posted:

Naim definitely has a house sound, you can hear it from the least expensive integrated to the top level 500 series. The more you spend, the more refinement and control you get, that's what I hear anyway.

I don't think there is a massive (there is that word again) difference in the way music is played going through the range, what you do get is just better control as you move up the Naim ladder of the speakers and more loudness capability without breaking up, clipping of the amplifier, but the overall sound is pretty much identical. So, I would disagree with what has been said about the massive sound differences.

I also cannot stand when the car analogy is used to describe the differences between stereo equipment, I never could see the logic in it.

In simplest of terms, you either like it, the Naim sound, or you don't. Don't over analyze it, just enjoy it!!  

Naim sound has the same effect as drinking cans of Red Bull, thats why a lot of people enjoy it.

Romi posted:

badlands posted:

Naim definitely has a house sound, you can hear it from the least expensive integrated to the top level 500 series. The more you spend, the more refinement and control you get, that's what I hear anyway.

I don't think there is a massive (there is that word again) difference in the way music is played going through the range, what you do get is just better control as you move up the Naim ladder of the speakers and more loudness capability without breaking up, clipping of the amplifier, but the overall sound is pretty much identical. So, I would disagree with what has been said about the massive sound differences.

I also cannot stand when the car analogy is used to describe the differences between stereo equipment, I never could see the logic in it.

In simplest of terms, you either like it, the Naim sound, or you don't. Don't over analyze it, just enjoy it!!  

Naim sound has the same effect as drinking cans of Red Bull, thats why a lot of people enjoy it.

I can't stand Red Bull. the smell is nauseating!

badlands posted:

Naim definitely has a house sound, you can hear it from the least expensive integrated to the top level 500 series. The more you spend, the more refinement and control you get, that's what I hear anyway.

 

How would you describe the house sound?

music is life, energy, excitement, emotions....naim sound brings this.  Perhaps is there some emphasize, not strictly neutral sound, but i don't care, only the pleasure is important.

Tube sound emphasizes the midrange and the beauty of the sound, it is not neutral too. But emotion is there.

With linn, ayre, accuphase, ch precision, goldmund, classe audio, soulution, the neutrality and conformity to the recording is there, but emotion is not there.  So i prefer some character in sound at home or true sound but at concert.

Innocent Bystander posted:

badlands posted:

Naim definitely has a house sound, you can hear it from the least expensive integrated to the top level 500 series. The more you spend, the more refinement and control you get, that's what I hear anyway.

 

How would you describe the house sound?

Easy, Naim sounds like nothing else , whatever your preconceived notions are about what hi fi should sound like, and you're accustomed to what you believe is the closest thing to the original sound, completely goes out the window the first time you hear a Naim amp. 

When people ask me what it is about Naim that you prefer so much over the others, I simply say I just like it better than anything else I have heard. I heard this years ago, maybe it was my dealer that said it, or maybe it was written in an article, it has always stayed with me, it was stated that "If Naim is doing it right, then everybody else is doing it wrong" pretty much sums it up! 

badlands posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

badlands posted:

Naim definitely has a house sound, you can hear it from the least expensive integrated to the top level 500 series. The more you spend, the more refinement and control you get, that's what I hear anyway.

 

How would you describe the house sound?

Easy, Naim sounds like nothing else , whatever your preconceived notions are about what hi fi should sound like, and you're accustomed to what you believe is the closest thing to the original sound, completely goes out the window the first time you hear a Naim amp. 

When people ask me what it is about Naim that you prefer so much over the others, I simply say I just like it better than anything else I have heard. I heard this years ago, maybe it was my dealer that said it, or maybe it was written in an article, it has always stayed with me, it was stated that "If Naim is doing it right, then everybody else is doing it wrong" pretty much sums it up! 

" When an audiophile grows up and takes a stand for what they believe in, they will see the black boxes as just that.. Black boxes.."

badlands posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

badlands posted:

Naim definitely has a house sound, you can hear it from the least expensive integrated to the top level 500 series. The more you spend, the more refinement and control you get, that's what I hear anyway.

 

How would you describe the house sound?

Easy, Naim sounds like nothing else , whatever your preconceived notions are about what hi fi should sound like, and you're accustomed to what you believe is the closest thing to the original sound, completely goes out the window the first time you hear a Naim amp. 

 

Unfortunately that is not a description of the sound, only saying that it is different, and you think it sounds closer to the original sound of the recorded music. (I appreciate that describing the difference may not be easy.(

As an aside, that makes me wonder why recording studios don't use Naim amps for monitoring purposes, but that is a rather different subject.

Innocent Bystander posted:

As an aside, that makes me wonder why recording studios don't use Naim amps for monitoring purposes, but that is a rather different subject.

You then have to ask yourself, why do speaker manufacturers use Naim electronics to voice their speakers?

badlands posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

As an aside, that makes me wonder why recording studios don't use Naim amps for monitoring purposes, but that is a rather different subject.

You then have to ask yourself, why do speaker manufactures use Naim electronics to voice their speakers?

Interesting fact of which I was unaware - which ones do? (I believe PMC and ATC don't)

One answer to the question could be to help them sell to Naim users! (I can also think of at least one unkind suggestion, but with no reason to believe it is right, so won't voice it.)

naim amps are not neutral, so little chance to find them in monitoring studios. But i don't say it is a weakness.