The Evolving Naim Sound!

French Rooster posted:

naim amps are not neutral, so little chance to find them in monitoring studios. But i don't say it is a weakness.

So in what respects are they not neutral?

Innocent Bystander posted: As an aside, that makes me wonder why recording studios don't use Naim amps for monitoring purposes,

I was unaware of that also, price might be the reason rather than absolute neutrality. I believe that the 250 was used at some point in monitoring studios.

Innocent Bystander posted:

French Rooster posted:

naim amps are not neutral, so little chance to find them in monitoring studios. But i don't say it is a weakness.

So in what respects are they not neutral?

they are emphasizing some aspects in sound vs others, which gave them a special character. But i like very much this special character....  Some other members had said the same in this topic, you can read the topic from the beginning if you want.  But i doubt you will agree with that....

Bored and excited when the Statement was released, so I started pecking on the keyboards: 

Naim’s Evolving Sound!

 Naim is doing what any reputable company would do, Change.

It’s a very competitive market, if Naim stayed with that upfront, boogie factor, that was so prominent in the CB & Olive era, we may very well be partaking in another Forum!

Furthermore, Music isn't recorded in the same manor it was two decades ago. Hence, a successful Company must make the adjustments, if they expect to stay around! 

Take a look at what has transpired over the last three decades:

CB>Olive>Black Boxes, and now The Dred Black Boxes, these changes has set the stage for the New Evolving Naim Sound.

Hence, a Dred front and rear end, with The Full Loom, and one has the New Naim Sound, quite different from the CB & Olive era!

Think of it as an Hybrid between Flat Earth & Round Earth!

However, one must get there, and in the process, may turn some of us off, for example when the black boxes were introduced, some didn’t care for the laid back sound, they preferred the more forward, boogie factor that was prominent in the Olive boxes.

Perhaps, we are experiencing a balancing act, between the Black Box Era, and the new DRed Era!

Note, the New Naim Sound isn’t complete until the Full Loom is present. Hence, the introduction, or lack of IC’s, and Speaker Cable can effect SQ in many ways depending on one’s system.

But even in an Utopian Scenario, a DRed front and rear end, accompanied by the Full Loom, still ain’t a Statement!

After all, these Technologies are all trickle downed from the Statement!

I’m not one for hi fi jargon, but who can dispute, improved separation, improved imaging, Black inky darkness, Interconnects, and Speaker Cable that results in a lean and mean signal, all accompanied by The Naim PRAT!

“”Our dilemma is that we hate change and love it at the same time; what we really want is for things to remain the same but get better.

Sydney J. Harris””

JMHO 

The Armchair QB!!!!!

That’s right just hot air, no hands on experience, After All I just got introduced to Naim in the Fall of 2014!

But this is what I got from a well Respected Member Yesterday:

“”People hear and appreciate different things got right in music replay systems. Naim, for me, tend to always retain what I describe as high 'linearity' in the sound at expense of other aspects of HiFi performance. What I mean be linearity is that the louder musical strands do no obliterate the quieter strands. Some manufacturers equipment optimise high-level quality at expense of the quieter strands of music - some to my ears in a shocking way given the praise they seem to get. With Naim kit I hear the quiet with the loud portrayed very well. The 'start-stop' quality or good transient handling and low overhang also give the 'darkness' to the sound I like as well as the good tunefulness.
As the Naim hierarchy is ascended you get more of this ability, together with more of the 'HiFi' so-called round earth aspects, but never sacrificing the inherent linearity to attain the latter. Some levels of the hierarchy attain the system end result differently, but you could hear what Naim were aiming for with the old Reference kit. The Statement components just takes it far further, but at a considerable financial outlay. 

That is how I hear it.’’’

Allante93!

PS. Not bad for Hot Air! 

French Rooster posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

French Rooster posted:

naim amps are not neutral, so little chance to find them in monitoring studios. But i don't say it is a weakness.

So in what respects are they not neutral?

they are emphasizing some aspects in sound vs others, which gave them a special character. But i like very much this special character....  Some other members had said the same in this topic, you can read the topic from the beginning if you want.  But i doubt you will agree with that....

I have no idea what you doubt I would agree with or what causes you to have the doubt.

It is not easy for me to get to hear a the difference for myself, and the impressions I had before this thread did nothing to make me think it was worth the considerable effort, yet I do have an interest in understanding it - and, who knows, it could invoke a real desire to hear for myself. I've been following the thread with great interest, and the reason I asked "in what respects they are not neutral" when you said that they weren't is precisely because so far there is no definitive description. Whilst I accept that it can be a difficult thing to describe, when someone is a bit more specific than just saying they sound better then clearly that person is recognising something and it would be helpful if they could try to elucidate.

So, when you say not neutral because they are emphasising some sound more than others, what exactly?

The only Naim component that I have owned that is notably not 'neutral' is the CDX2, and I love it and still do... but my NACs, poweramps, NDAC, CDS3, NAT05, NDS etc are neutral albeit with their own specific characters... I wouldn't say necessarily their sound is specifically Naim like... I think that is a myth.

Now Naim loudspeakers... that was something else in my experience...

I don't have a great deal of Hifi and Naim experience -- just started my journey. But when I compared a few different brands before my Naim purchase, I felt Naim delivered the greatest "energy" and "precision". One of our demo pieces is Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata (second and third movements) -- and especially the transition from the second to third movement is amazing with Naim. The same with Strauss' Alpine Symphony -- the Sunrise is most beautifully captured with Naim. Amazing energy but without loosing precision and accuracy. Hope this makes sense...

Innocent Bystander posted:

French Rooster posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

French Rooster posted:

naim amps are not neutral, so little chance to find them in monitoring studios. But i don't say it is a weakness.

So in what respects are they not neutral?

they are emphasizing some aspects in sound vs others, which gave them a special character. But i like very much this special character....  Some other members had said the same in this topic, you can read the topic from the beginning if you want.  But i doubt you will agree with that....

I have no idea what you doubt I would agree with or what causes you to have the doubt.

It is not easy for me to get to hear a the difference for myself, and the impressions I had before this thread did nothing to make me think it was worth the considerable effort, yet I do have an interest in understanding it - and, who knows, it could invoke a real desire to hear for myself. I've been following the thread with great interest, and the reason I asked "in what respects they are not neutral" when you said that they weren't is precisely because so far there is no definitive description. Whilst I accept that it can be a difficult thing to describe, when someone is a bit more specific than just saying they sound better then clearly that person is recognising something and it would be helpful if they could try to elucidate.

So, when you say not neutral because they are emphasising some sound more than others, what exactly?

All amplifiers do it - sort of...
Except it's not actually emphasising some parts more than others:  It's that in the amplifier, some parts of the signal are more degraded and some are less degraded.

In designing and 'voicing' the amp it's just a question of defining which aspects of the signal are more degraded and which are less degraded.

Huge posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

French Rooster posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

French Rooster posted:

naim amps are not neutral, so little chance to find them in monitoring studios. But i don't say it is a weakness.

So in what respects are they not neutral?

they are emphasizing some aspects in sound vs others, which gave them a special character. But i like very much this special character....  Some other members had said the same in this topic, 

Whilst I accept that it can be a difficult thing to describe, when someone is a bit more specific than just saying they sound better then clearly that person is recognising something and it would be helpful if they could try to elucidate.

So, when you say not neutral because they are emphasising some sound more than others, what exactly?

All amplifiers do it - sort of...
Except it's not actually emphasising some parts more than others:  It's that in the amplifier, some parts of the signal are more degraded and some are less degraded.

In designing and 'voicing' the amp it's just a question of defining which aspects of the signal are more degraded and which are less degraded.

I accept that (I think this is the 3rd time you've said in this thread!), but it is missing the point. Some people say they hear an emphasis or a lack of neutrality - which is entirely possible even if other people don't, whether due to ears or system or perception of what is neutral or without emphasis - then It would be useful to understand what they mean by that: what do they hear that is emphasised, or what aspect is different from what they understand as neutral.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

The only Naim component that I have owned that is notably not 'neutral' is the CDX2, and I love it and still do... but my NACs, poweramps, NDAC, CDS3, NAT05, NDS etc are neutral albeit with their own specific characters... I wouldn't say necessarily their sound is specifically Naim like... I think that is a myth.

Now Naim loudspeakers... that was something else in my experience...

Simon, indeed speakers are so much more less well controlled than the electronics.

Distortion levels, both harmonic and non-linear are typically two or three orders of magnitude higher, the whole thing is a typically a mechanically resonant passive device  with no linearising feedback to control it (even in so called active systems!).

Add to that completely different build philosophies which can still result in good speakers (e.g. compare a pair of BBC monitor derived speakers with a pair of ATC speakers - also monitor derived, stand mounts vs. floor standers, full range vs. satellite / sub systems)

Then there's the differing materials (Cones & Domes... Materials: paper, carbon fibre, glass fibre, plastic fibres, heavy damped thermoplastics, rubberised silk, metals; Cabinet Materials: MDF, particle board, plywood, composites of plastics and various fibres, metals, laminates, even concrete has been used).

It's amazing that a good sound can be obtained in so many different ways!

Timo posted:

I don't have a great deal of Hifi and Naim experience -- just started my journey. But when I compared a few different brands before my Naim purchase, I felt Naim delivered the greatest "energy" and "precision". One of our demo pieces is Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata (second and third movements) -- and especially the transition from the second to third movement is amazing with Naim. The same with Strauss' Alpine Symphony -- the Sunrise is most beautifully captured with Naim. Amazing energy but without loosing precision and accuracy. Hope this makes sense...

The above sounds very interesting (I listen to classical music), may I ask what different brands you compared with and what exactly was your Naim purchase which bought such delightful experience.  Does you knew system bring reasonable sound stage  and image when listening to Classical orchestras? 

Huge posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

The only Naim component that I have owned that is notably not 'neutral' is the CDX2, and I love it and still do... but my NACs, poweramps, NDAC, CDS3, NAT05, NDS etc are neutral albeit with their own specific characters... I wouldn't say necessarily their sound is specifically Naim like... I think that is a myth.

Now Naim loudspeakers... that was something else in my experience...

Simon, indeed speakers are so much more less well controlled than the electronics.

Distortion levels, both harmonic and non-linear are typically two or three orders of magnitude higher, the whole thing is a typically a mechanically resonant passive device  with no linearising feedback to control it (even in so called active systems!).

Add to that completely different build philosophies which can still result in good speakers (e.g. compare a pair of BBC monitor derived speakers with a pair of ATC speakers - also monitor derived, stand mounts vs. floor standers, full range vs. satellite / sub systems)

Then there's the differing materials (Cones & Domes... Materials: paper, carbon fibre, glass fibre, plastic fibres, heavy damped thermoplastics, rubberised silk, metals; Cabinet Materials: MDF, particle board, plywood, composites of plastics and various fibres, metals, laminates, even concrete has been used).

It's amazing that a good sound can be obtained in so many different ways!

And unsurprising that they sound so very different, making speakers have by far the single most significant effect on the sound character,

I have had an interesting week listening to two excellent Naim systems & then comparing them to my EAR-Yoshino powered setup. The Naim rigs are both very well set up, although from different eras:

1.

CDX2.2/XP5XS/DCA1/nDAC/555PSDR/Super Lumina interconnect

552DR/pair of Super Lumina  4-pin DIN to XLR/300DR 

Super Lumina 2 x 5m speaker cables to Focal Electra 1028be

Powerlines on everything

Quadraspire Sunoko-Vent rack: 2 x 4 shelf 'brain' & 'brawn' &

SVT bronze spikes supporting a close-coupled Bamboo SVT shelf at the top of each stack

and

2.

Olive unless stated:

LP12 / Radical / Ittock LVII / Scale CW / Lyros Delos / Linn T-cable mogami / Cirkus / Tangerine platter sub-chasis / Tangerine stilletto plinth / Tangerine Scorpion Baseboard

Brains & Brawn Twin Rack.

Tellurium Green II

Naim 82/Supercap > 250 (CB)

Superline / Supercap / Hiline & aircaps

CDX / Hiline

Everything powerlined

Focal Chorus 826W

My personal biases, which this experience challenged, are:

1. Don't like CD based systems, with the exception of CD555 with dual PS555s - once; and
2. Don't like Olive Naim.

These two systems, although from two different eras, have enormous amount in common aurally.

The listening was more varied with (1), and all rock with (2).

I will make straightforward statements below, but please keep in mind that all three systems I will discuss are excellent, and that while my statements are bald the reality is more subtle - as someone here wrote, describing systems is like dancing about architecture.

What these Naim systems bring is SCALE, detail and addictive energy. In the case of these systems their speakers are a size up on mine and the amount of air being moved makes the listening experience visceral.

Do I think the sound of the amplification has moved on? Absolutely. The black boxes do lean to a bit more to round world, less wall of sound, a bit more soundstage.

I have never hear Pink Floyds Pulse or Led Zep III sound better than through system (2). Superb - despite the Olive amps (in my case).

System (1) may be CD based, but it was equally excellent be it ACDC or Mary Black. My anti CD biase is officially DEAD.

So how does this compare to my system?

LP12 / Aro / DV20 / Geddon

Sonore microRendu / LPS1/ StarTech

Border Patrol DAC.

EAR868PL / EAR534

Focal 1008be II / stands

A5 cabling

Balls to the wall my system cannot compete. It does things somewhat differently. It lays out more of a soundstage and invites you in. It is dynamic and visceral, but it persuades perhaps, rather than pin you and tell you the way it is. Exaggeration, but I am trying to paint a picture.  Voices are where I feel my system centers, vocals are just absolutely crucial to my enjoyment, as well as a lack of edge; and in this I feel my system excels.

I remember the first time I heard a fully active six pack CB system fronted by an LP12 and played through Isobariks - I wanted to run. It was doing great things, but was akin to scrapping finger nails down a black board in others. I felt Olive took this to a slightly higher level. That system (2) could produce a sound that I was loving was a testament to the builder; although there was one album that I felt bought this tendency to the fore, it was not sufficient to want to run.

Personally, I prefer the modern black amps, although I still love my CBs I feel the new amps are a step in a direction that I enjoy.

So, does this make me regret my turn to EAR? No, not at all. It brings things in terms of dimensionality & tone that I also love, and no lack of PRAT. I do know that if I was listening to, for instance, Thin Lizzy I would love to listen to it on the Naim systems, and if on my LPs that would be system (2).

One other thing of note, the excellence of the Focal speakers. They are truly transparent, showing what is happening in the system that fronts them.

French Rooster: Do let me know if you think of moving away from the 912!

M

analogmusic posted:

which speaker cable do you use....? 

NAC A5 for over twenty five years - here's to another twenty five years <clinks glass>

Cheers! 

Huge posted:

Innocent Bystander 

All amplifiers do it - sort of...
Except it's not actually emphasising some parts more than others:  It's that in the amplifier, some parts of the signal are more degraded and some are less degraded.

In designing and 'voicing' the amp it's just a question of defining which aspects of the signal are more degraded and which are less degraded.

Wow!

Very Interesting, The Naim Sound!

Hugh, Simon, Innocent, and Timo, a gentleman like myself, new to Naim who enjoys Classical Music with his Midrange Naim System.

Simon~ CD & Speakers

Hugh~its all about the Amp

Innocent~Empirical Observation 

And Of Course, the Lead in Lines of a Well Respected Forum Member:

"People hear and appreciate different things got right in music replay systems. Naim, for me, tend to always retain what I describe as high 'linearity' in the sound at expense of other aspects of HiFi performance."

It all meshes well, but let's not kid ourselves!

The Naim Sound, all started with the Amp!

The famous Naim black boxes – albeit with the 'chrome bumper' strip around the edge of the enclosure – had arrived, and soon came the shoebox-shaped NAC 12 preamplifier, the first of many 'small boxes' from Naim, to partner the NAP 200.

At the time, the widely-held belief was that the sound of a system was determined by the speakers, and that amplifiers should be no more than 'a straight wire with gain' – a means to an end in doing no more than driving the speakers.

Vereker disagreed, in characteristically forthright fashion, and hot on the heels of the NAP 200 was the NAP 250 power amp of 1975, encapsulating his view of how an amplifier should be designed, and destined to set the pattern for all Naim power amps for the next quarter of a century.

CD not good enough

In fact, flying in the face of perceived wisdom and 'doing their own thing' has been the way Naim and its engineers have always worked: they engineered products they'd want to listen to, rather than following the pack. That's one reason why, for example, Naim was a late adopter of CD: although the format had been launched in 1982, throughout the 1980s Naim felt the sound of CD was inferior to that available from LPs – not just the player technology, but the way the music was transferred to disc – and it wasn't until 1990 that it made the move into CD.

Read more at https://www.whathifi.com/news/...#TXqOKCTVlPXE6CiL.99

Mr Underhill posted:

 

One other thing of note, the excellence of the Focal speakers. They are truly transparent, showing what is happening in the system that fronts them.

 

Yes indeed. your 1008Be's were a revelation to me. By the time I went to buy them, the dealer had sold out and was carrying the Sopras. That's what I have in front of me blasting Pitbull's Dale album (oldest son's choice but kind of fun actually) right now. By far the best speakers I've heard anywhere. Regardless of amplification, but those black boxes do make them even better!

Allante93 posted:

<snip>

Hugh~its all about the Amp
<snip>

I was misquoted!

Actually I believe it's about synergy and 'musicality' in the whole system - just look at my first post (6th post on page 1).
Later on, I've needed to focus on correcting some misconceptions about amp design.

No problems though.

hey mr underhill,

i am glad that you enjoy like me ear amps and preamps. I am very pleased with my ear 912 that performs very well with my nap300dr and before nap250.  I has also a superb phono stage inside, dead quiet, with multiple set up possibilities. So i don't think to sell it.  It is difficult to find a tube preamp, with phono, which is also very dynamic and which will suit naim amps.

Other possibilities, like vac renaissance with phono or einstein ( without phono) are more expensive and i don't know if they will work perfectly with naim amps.

My next upgrade is to buy tubes nos telefunken for the ear 912....

Huge posted:

Allante93 posted:

<snip>

Hugh~its all about the Amp
<snip>

I was misquoted!

Actually I believe it's about synergy and 'musicality' in the whole system - just look at my first post (6th post on page 1).
Later on, I've needed to focus on correcting some misconceptions about amp design.

No problems though.

My Bad, I just really liked the dialogue between the Engineer & Scientist/Innocent, where he noted your third time citing of info.

That's why I love quotations, as long as they are not taken out of context!

But when it's all said and Done, Julian done a fine job with that Nap 200!

Allante93!

PS. A Gentleman & A Scholar!

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

The only Naim component that I have owned that is notably not 'neutral' is the CDX2, and I love it and still do... but my NACs, poweramps, NDAC, CDS3, NAT05, NDS etc are neutral albeit with their own specific characters... I wouldn't say necessarily their sound is specifically Naim like... I think that is a myth.

Now Naim loudspeakers... that was something else in my experience...

I often hear talk about the Briks being colored, or not neutral, perhaps this is what I love about my Living-Room system!

A Colorful Front & Rear End, with "PRAT" in Middle!

Allante93!

Innocent Bystander posted:

French Rooster posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

French Rooster posted:

naim amps are not neutral, so little chance to find them in monitoring studios. But i don't say it is a weakness.

So in what respects are they not neutral?

they are emphasizing some aspects in sound vs others, which gave them a special character. But i like very much this special character....  Some other members had said the same in this topic, you can read the topic from the beginning if you want.  But i doubt you will agree with that....

I have no idea what you doubt I would agree with or what causes you to have the doubt.

It is not easy for me to get to hear a the difference for myself, and the impressions I had before this thread did nothing to make me think it was worth the considerable effort, yet I do have an interest in understanding it - and, who knows, it could invoke a real desire to hear for myself. I've been following the thread with great interest, and the reason I asked "in what respects they are not neutral" when you said that they weren't is precisely because so far there is no definitive description. Whilst I accept that it can be a difficult thing to describe, when someone is a bit more specific than just saying they sound better then clearly that person is recognising something and it would be helpful if they could try to elucidate.

So, when you say not neutral because they are emphasising some sound more than others, what exactly?

it is difficult to me to describe what a neutral sound is or is not, and i feel naim sound is not neutral. But first , for me, not neutral is not a critic or a default.  Naim sound have a special character, more based on prat, involvement or dynamics than soundstage or richness of tone colors or softness or fluency.... Difficult to describe and i agree it is very subjective.

But when i heard solid state electronics as classé audio, accuphase, ayre, or linn, simaudio,   the sound is very similar to my ears, with less character.  Some studio monitoring use simaudio or classe audio...

I don't think we can describe all with objective and scientific words.   I. believe, like a lot of people, that naim audio have a character of its own, and we like it for it.

badlands posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

badlands posted:

Naim definitely has a house sound, you can hear it from the least expensive integrated to the top level 500 series. The more you spend, the more refinement and control you get, that's what I hear anyway.

 

How would you describe the house sound?

Easy, Naim sounds like nothing else , whatever your preconceived notions are about what hi fi should sound like, and you're accustomed to what you believe is the closest thing to the original sound, completely goes out the window the first time you hear a Naim amp. 

When people ask me what it is about Naim that you prefer so much over the others, I simply say I just like it better than anything else I have heard. I heard this years ago, maybe it was my dealer that said it, or maybe it was written in an article, it has always stayed with me, it was stated that "If Naim is doing it right, then everybody else is doing it wrong" pretty much sums it up! 

I have to agree. I'd auditioned a Linn streaming system, which I enjoyed, before hearing Naim for the first time. Talk about a lightbulb moment! I don't have the hifi vocabulary to describe it, but it's the same, for me, as PMC vs ProAc speakers - the Linn and PMC have the accuracy and neutrality that many crave, but no soul. Naim has soul in spades!!

French Rooster posted:

hey mr underhill,

My next upgrade is to buy tubes nos telefunken for the ear 912....

Hi FR,

Tim's advice would be that you are welcome to try, but that he would stick with his valves. A number of years ago I took in my 864 for a service, he grabbed a couple of the valves i was using and took them off to look up, he repeated this with my 534 .....in both instances I moved back to his very reasonably priced toobs and was happy with the result.

912 is a great pre, I certainly wouldn't sell it on. Again T de P's attitude to an EAR hierarchy is interesting. Before I bought the 868 I had a chat with him about the DAC4, to try and get a feel for relative merit. His view was that he build things to be the best they can, he wouldn't pick one as better than the other, more a question of the facilities you need! As refreshing as this is I would still pick the 868 over the 864, and suspect the 912 as well as being more flexible will best my 868. Happy to stick for the foreseeable.

ATB,

M

Timmo1341 posted:

I have to agree. I'd auditioned a Linn streaming system, which I enjoyed, before hearing Naim for the first time. Talk about a lightbulb moment! I don't have the hifi vocabulary to describe it, but it's the same, for me, as PMC vs ProAc speakers - the Linn and PMC have the accuracy and neutrality that many crave, but no soul. Naim has soul in spades!!

To me this is the key. I don't look to reproduce a live sound. I hear this every week, and sing in a choir and record live music. One of the things I love about a HiFi is that it can allow more. For instance, depending where you sit in a concert the level of detail you hear with respect to fingering and technique, or simply HEARING an instrument or group of instruments at all will be different. Depending on the recording  so much inner detail, or additional layers, will be apparent or added.

That said, I enjoy live albums as you can hear the musicians playing off one another; or see what the musicians are doing, for instance a couple of years ago I bought a couple of last minute tickets to see the Carmina Burana at the RAH. We were sitting next to the organ above the orchestra. It was superb to watch the percussion sitting for long periods with nothing to do then come in on a crescendo ....OFF the beat, wow.

I feel that Naim centers on certain aspects, other systems on others. Picking the system which floats your boat is part of the joy of this hobby. For me with Naim I would pick Current Black Box > CB > Olive, but I completely understand other people changing that order.

The shame is that I believe many people own equipment that is capable of SO much more than the owners are hearing.

M