Next steps from Nait XS 2 ???

I'd get a Flatcap 2XS, a good stand for the Naim boxes and a dedicated mains feed. The system is nicely balanced and if you start significantly upping the amplification and speakers, then the CD player will be outclassed. The only slight concern is that the ES14 was designed around the NAP250 and the Nait may not be capable of fully driving them, though not having heard the combination means this is just an inkling. 

Epos ES14s, nice.  How long have you had those?  It seems too obvious to suggest and an SN2 as the amp upgrade.  There's been quite a bit of debate and disagreement over the benefit of the SN2 V XS2 in the last week.  This thread gives some views including my own https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...supernait-or-new-xs2 .  In summary of my own thoughts though, their character is similar, the SN2 is a more revealing and gutsier XS2-like sound.  And contrary to HH's concern, I doubt the sources will be embarrassed being amplified by it, or indeed a pre / power set up for the kind of budget you mention.  Yes, source needs to be considered at some point to get the best from the amp you choose, but CD5 XS isn't about to sound bad just because the amplification is a step up in its revealing capabilities.

Hi,

HH's advice seems rather sound with the addition of a Flatcap 2XS, dedicated mains and a really worthy rack is all you need.

Or sticking with what you already have and maybe a more up to date and 'easier' to drive pair of speakers such as the Motive SX1 or SX2 from Neat might give a bigger bang for buck as it stands.

Are you still using the old stock mains cables?

Recommended by many others (and I can vouch for this myself) that the newly released Power-LineLite cables can bring an up lift in performance in all areas too.

Thanks for the comments and advice so far... further info' to add to the thinking here...

FYI, (1) yes I'm using stock mains cabling. So that's a good suggestion to investigate improving that area. Thanks.

(2) I've owned the ES14's since new before 1990ish. So approaching 30 years young. They are really good condition, all original and working well, much loved and cherished. Maybe just usual wear and tear from one very careful owner, me. (Also, Recently bought a second pair for spares). As you may know, the design is amazingly simple, so not many parts to go wrong. Just silicon seals that slowly decay in time. But, actually, they look and sound okay. These beauties have been used with several other of my systems over the years. And I think they have definitely found their spritual home with Naim amplification.

(3) On other speaker options, easier loads etc, I would be very open to adding another pair (and keeping / re-use the Epos pair elsewhere). But having investigated all the usual suspects from PMC, Neat and Spendor, came to the conclusion that I need to spend over £3k to get a better speaker (to my ears). I really like the Epos stand mounts..!!!! So, more inclined to change other parts first, e.g amplification, or a DAC, or PSU, etc.

ratrat posted:

Really happy with my system as it stands. But, thinking how can I improve on this.

should first consider the risks of moving on while already being happy with the achieved results.

Stephen Tate posted:

<snip>

Or sticking with what you already have and maybe a more up to date and 'easier' to drive pair of speakers such as the Motive SX1 or SX2 from Neat might give a bigger bang for buck as it stands.
<snip>

Actually Epos ES14s are a very easy load (look at the Stereophile review) all the Neat speakers are much more difficult to drive.

Yeah, I had speakers I really liked, and kept for 20 years, and like yourself, even considered buying a back-up pair.  In the end though, I decided to try something else, and sure enough, despite their talents, I didn't like them at all.  That was a new-ish £2.1k speaker vs a 20 year old £600 speaker.  That tells you something though, price tags are not the answer.  The fact is, and for less than £4k, I am damn sure there is a speaker that will better the EPOS ES14s.  Finding it is the difficult part, which in my experience involves ignoring 90% of what everyone says, from hifi review magazines right through to forum members.  It's what you enjoy that counts, the price tag is unimportant. 

With £8,000 on the table, keeping the speakers, selling the CD player and buying used, a CDS3, XPS2, 282, Hicap and 250 would be easily possible. That would knock spots off the current system and would be infinitely better than swapping the Epos for some modern me-too box. 

Songstream is absolutely right.  I'm still using 30year old Spendor SP2s.

To upgrade my speakers I took them apart and replaced the internal wiring and connectors - that's all that was needed, primarily because the internal connectors were showing significant surface oxidation.  Fortunately the SP2s only use plastic film capacitors, if they'd use electrolytics those would have needed replacement some time ago.

N.B.  The Eposes do use a non-polarised electrolytic, so this should be replaced every 10 to 15 years.

Huge posted:

Stephen Tate posted:

<snip>

Or sticking with what you already have and maybe a more up to date and 'easier' to drive pair of speakers such as the Motive SX1 or SX2 from Neat might give a bigger bang for buck as it stands.
<snip>

Actually Epos ES14s are a very easy load (look at the Stereophile review) all the Neat speakers are much more difficult to drive.

Ok, this maybe true and I stand corrected if so...I did have some Epos ES14s on the end of my NAC92/NAP90.3 back in the early nineties, as I recall my pre-power just simply weren't up to them and i was told that I needed a NAC82/ NAP250 to get them to sing.

My NAIT 5si on the other hand has no trouble driving my Motive SX2 or struggle anywhere near like my pre-power did with the 14s back then.

By the way FWIW, the Epos 14s are lovely speakers to behold, so I can understand why the OP will want to hang on to them and reluctant to move on.  I used to work for Goodman's back in the day when it was under the TGI group in Havant, Hants when Mordaunt-Short & Epos were all being built under the same roof, built like brick sh** houses (drive units) if I re-call...It's just that things have moved on, especially high frequency performance & cabinet construction.

Hungryhalibut posted:

With £8,000 on the table, keeping the speakers, selling the CD player and buying used, a CDS3, XPS2, 282, Hicap and 250 would be easily possible. That would knock spots off the current system and would be infinitely better than swapping the Epos for some modern me-too box. 

Hang on, who's table has 8k on it? 

Reading the original post and using my advanced maths skills to add £4,000 and £4,000 gives me £8,000.

OK, I stand corrected. A mathematical genius.  

Actually, it doesn't give me £8,000, but it does give the OP that sum. I wish it was me though!

Thanks for all these thoughts. Just to comment on potential budget.... £4K figure is based on what might be considered for next move, (and how much I am prepared to spend). For example:

Naim: SN2 @ £3,100; 202/200 @ £4,260: HiCapDR @ £1,329, etc

Speakers: PMC twenty5.23 @ £3,095; PMC twenty5.24 @ £4,470; similar from Neat or Spendot, or, etc

All, just as examples....!!!

Anyway, trying to add and improve in incremental steps, as funds allow. Same as most music lovers & HiFi enthusiast.

Do consider the setup I mentioned above, at least as an alternative way to spend your money. 

I used Epos 14 for twenty years and finally changed to Naim Allaes, you can pick up a nice pair for about £800 and if you don't like them sell them on with minimal loss, I thought the Epos only really started to sing when going from Nap140 to Nap 250.

Karl

I drove mine from an exposure 21 pre and 18 dual regulated monos  and very nice they sounded too. I went into a Billy Vee fully expecting to leave with Naim but exposure did the trick at the time. My final dabble with exposure was with the 16s - insanely heavy and used to trip the circuit breaker on power up! I sold them to a guy who'd regretted selling his and wonder if I'd done the same as he drove away with them

I later moved up to a pair of es25s and then had a try with the es30s. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

Do consider the setup I mentioned above, at least as an alternative way to spend your money. 

I would be fascinated to explore that suggestion. I'm no expert and it would never have occurred to me to put amps of that quality - 282/250 - with my humble Epos ES14's. 

(One of the great consequences of asking for comments and ideas, is the wide array of suggestions, including many you would not have got to by yourself).

Thanks to forum members so far.

Any more ideas on how to move forward from a Nait XS 2 and add or improve SQ in some way?

Thanks for all the input. Summary of thoughts, in order suggested, as follows:

1. Add a Flatcap XS, to feed both CD5 XS and Nait XS 2

2. Upgrade from Nait XS 2 to SN 2

3. Upgrade power cabling, for example Power line lite, etc

4. Various ideas regarding speakers: keeping the ES14's; check over the ES14's internal electronics, including replacing capacitors; adding a power amp, such as NAP250; changing speaker to "easier loads", such as Neat; changing to Naim Alleas; going in search for that ellusive replacement (improvement) to your much loved reference amongst modern design, etc.

5. Swop all the electronics over to pre-loved Naim items, based around 282/250 combo

All really helpful, and I'll look into each. Thanks. It's great to hear about other experiences... Before I raised the post, I was thinking.... Maybe add PSU's, such as HiCapDR. Maybe even two of these for both cd and amp. Maybe add a DAC to CD player. Maybe change the XS2 for SN2 or 202/200 combo. Also, maybe upgrade from stock Naim cabling, etc. Any experience of these next steps from Nait XS 2...? (Budget of £3-4K)

On speakers.... I'm more inclined to add or change electronics first. As a I like the ES14's so much. But would eventually be open to changing these as a later step. (Budget of £3-4K).

Anyone gone through same process with same or similar system.... Does anyone have any experience or further thoughts on "next steps from Nait XS 2 ?

I ran ES14s for many years, until a lightning strike took out a power amp and that took a tweeter out, I then replaced them with B&W 804s. The amps I used were 82/Hicap/2*135. If you're looking at pre-loved amps, I found the ES14s worked brilliantly with olives, they come on the market occasionally and you can probably pick up 82/SC/135s for under £4k fully serviced.

I started with a ND5 XS / Nait XS 2

I added a DIY Mogami interconnect to replace the Lavender interconnect.   There was a significant improvement in clarity and detail.

I then added external PSUs to each,  Each one increased the detail still further and gave even greater gains in differentiation of instrumental timbres and readability of voices.

Next was a a NAC-N272 in place of the ND5 XS (using the Nait as a power amp only), and the improvement was as great again as adding both PSUs previously.

I then got a s/h NAP300DR to replace the Nait as the power amp.  This was the single largest improvement I made, improving just about every area.

The last 'box swap' was to add a s/h 555CDPSDR to the 272.  While more subtle this brought the same again again as the previous PSUs had done.

Finally I upgraded the speakers wiring.  Not so big a gain, but a lot cheaper!  Gains in detail, consistency of sound stage (particularly depth & 'airyness') and in vocal quality.

I'm not a fan of 'incremental' or small step upgrades (e.g. upgrading by a single step in a manufacturer's range) for three reasons:
1  The still leave you wondering "What if...?"
2  There is a possibility that with a small upgrade the new component is better in a many ways but actually not as good in a few other ways, and one of the downgraded aspects may prove significant to you in the long term; leading to disappointment.
3  Lots of buying and soon selling on costs more in the long term and delays you getting to your 'goal system'

In each case where I've upgraded a major component (at significant cost), because they were big upgrades, not once has any aspect of my system lost out in any way.

Really insightful story. Thanks for sharing that HiFi journey Huge. I tend to agree with the idea of small "incremental steps" (not being worth it in the longer term), wrt to a HiFi journey and a "goal system". So, subscribe to a similar philosophy. 

Thinking about my own system (vinyl and cd source only) and a parallel to the above journey, I'm guessing next step, according to same philosophy, would be adding PSU's. So, separate HiCap DR for amp, then cd too. Anyone have experience of that  "next step from XS 2", with similar system....?

Another path would be adding a DAC to the CD5 XS, (instead of a PSU). Anyone with that experience to share?

Then one further step, to upgrade amp, either a SN2 or 202/200, in time. (But, carrying PSU's forward). Anyone have experience of that "next step from XS 2" with similar system...?

My initial suggestion for you would be to replace the electrolytic capacitor(s) in the speakers and look at the quality of internal wiring and connectors,  If the internal connectors are also dull, replace them as well.  This is a cheap upgrade and will need doing by now - it won't alter anything radically, just bring the speakers back to their original performance.

My next suggestion for you would be a HiCapDR.
Try it on both the CD payer and the Nait (remember you need a SNAIC 5 for that as well).  If you like it on both, get a second one.

After that I wouldn't go for a SN2 or a 202/200, but rather wait 'til you can get a 282 / 200 (and get them second hand if need be).  With a HiCapDR powering the 282, that'll be a very nice combo, and really show what those speakers can do (if you can get a 250DR even better!)

I think Huge has given some pretty sound advice on the upgrade path there, and making the most of components added in future systems.  I absolutely love my SN2, but I didn't upgrade from an XS2, it was a bit more of a leap and cross brand.  If you're basically happy with the foundation as is, beefing that up as suggested with power supplies that can be used with the likes of a NAC 282 in future does make good sense.

I really relate to your position on the speaker situation.  While it has been a bit of a bumpy road, I did find a speaker that betters the Mission 752 Freedoms I was so fond of, and the Proac D18s that I wasn't, and perform well beyond what I hoped to achieve.  I've done a bit of exploration in the £2-3k speaker market now, including owning two different examples in the last 12-ish months.  I've listened to stuff just under that figure, and right at the top end of it, and found the experience quite confusing.  The difference between my chosen Kudos X3s (which I totally adore btw), and the Proacs I owned, and almost everything else I tried, is ridiculous.  Point is, if the demo process had panned out differently, I could have become of the opinion that I needed to spend to over the £3k to get what I wanted, based on some of the examples I've heard/owned.  The difference in performance and musical attitude between different brands and models in the 2-3k bracket is outrageous, and mind boggling for me.  Different people seem to hear and seek different qualities, but if the X3s had been £3k, rather than just over £2k, I'd have bought them and felt like I had value for money.