Please suggest standmounted speakers for NAC202 and NAP150

With your sources and amp I'd look into improvements "here and there"

Divide budget in two or three parts

Think PSU for preamp, think better cd-source (no idea about the other sources) and get some el cheapo loudspeakers,

this will be the challenging part but there are solutions out there, recently I have seen some Spendor, Ruark, Rega, Linn, Wharfedale, Royd, Heybrook, Neat 2-way bookshelfs at really good prices, I'm sure there are alternatives to these.

If you can stretch to a grand audition the Proac tab 10 and your 150 will drive them very well indeed 

You can get PMC 21's or ATC 11's used at about your budget if you are happy with your sources no need to change them at all. The ATC's do like power but a good friend has them with a Uniti 2 all in one which must be the same power rating as your 150 and they sound pretty good to me.

Dynaudio emit 10 or emit 20

Before you look at new speakers, what cables are you using? Biwiring doesn't usually work well with Naim amps. Also, in your position, I'd be considering a source upgrade first.

i would also look at Spendor SH, owned a pair of S6e's for a number of years, 150 should drive them with out a problem

In my opinion the biggest problem in your system is that most of your sources are simply not up to the standard of your amplifier.

Get a second-hand ND5 XS.  Connect the Skybox, BlueRay player, iPod and whatever you use to render Netflix using the digital connections on the ND5.  This will ensure that your source quality from these is a good as it can be (most of those sources are compressed audio).  (The iPod connects through USB on the front, then there are 2 optical and 2 digital coax connections available.)

When using uncompressed CD quality files from the  iPod the quality of playback through an ND5 will actually beat the Arcam Alpha 9+ (the ND5 is easily as good as the Arcam).  Then get a NAS and rip your CDs to that, transfer the iPod files, and you'll have all your music accessible through one co-ordinated route using the Naim App (other UPnP control apps are available and the Naim remote handset can also be used).

After sorting out your sources then think about improving the speakers - with the better sources, you'll be able to appreciate what better speakers can do for you!

If you like your speakers and what they do, and when they integrate well with your room, it would be the last thing to change in my most humble opinion.

I would sell the nac and nap and introduce a Supernait 1. This will push new life to the Speakers and gives you an internal Dac (beware: SN1 only) which you can feed by your existing sources.

Later on add a Hicap DR to it.

If you really want to change speakers, I would go for Dynaudio or the beforementioned Proac tablettes which are easy for your Nap 150.

I would agree with Huge on the front end upgrade. A well known dealer near Felixstowe/Ipswich has a second hand ND5XS on their website for £1000 less than list price!

ATC SCM11

Hi RZE,

I don't know your Missions, although I have very fond memories of my Mission 700s from 1981! Assuming they are not pants, or damaged, I would very definitely be looking at your front end.

In addition to some of the options mentioned above, and the UnitiQute, if you are PC literate then you could look at non-Naim options, such as a Raspberry Pi 3 with DAC card. If you go to Han Beekhuysen's channel on YouTube he has reviewed many streamers, including the RP. You can then feed in your files via a USB stick or HDD, for instance ....and look at streaming from the internet. I would also recommend powering the RP3 with a linear PSU. Assuming you set aside £300 for this then you could look at getting a PSU for the pre, or replacing the pre/power with a uniti etc.

So many options, so little time!

Look forward to hearing what you do.

M

looking at your system,i would probably concentrate on the sources. A speaker change (usually) has the largest and instantaneous change of sound,but if you like the existing spkrs. I think source upgrades will bring about a more "nuanced" change,with a very good chance of making those spkrs. sound even better. I'm a big fan of harbeth (30.1) but don't know if anything in their line is in your price range (I'm in usa and don't know  your market prices) - if you do look at speakers.. good luck and enjoy the search - although it's even more fun to recommend and thus spend someone elses money!

Ahem....amid the probable murmurings of 'oh no, not again'.....as someone that owned Mission 752 Freedoms for 20 years, I would suggest treading very carefully here.  I'm not familiar the 751, but suspect from what you've said that the qualities are similar.  They can be bettered, of course, but putting something of a much newer design, and with a new price of £1.6k for example, such as the PMC Twenty.21s, is absolutely zero guarantee of an improvement.  That's not to say I have anything against the little PMCs at all, in fact, at modest volume, and with modest amplification, I think they're pretty good, but there is the suggestion for a few people, and already mentioned above, that they demand more power to be at their best, and unfortunately I can't comment on that.  What I would say though, is that if your 751s are anything like my 2s, which they should be, they're more than capable of revealing the benefits of upgrades in the rest of the system.  Certainly my 752Fs left me with no regrets in terms of improved SQ and musical enjoyment when I upgraded from a Cyrus 8vs amp, which itself did a remarkable job of conveying the difference between its partnering CD8x vs the Naim DAC V1 I added, and then to a Naim Supernait 2 amp.  For these reasons I would side with the above at this point and consider source first.  

I had 751s for years, and they are definitely not living up to their potential with those sources. I have to agree with those who said source first. 

And maybe look for a pair of the original Epos ES11 or ES12

These are seriously good if you can find them, usually around the £200 mark you can do much worse, in fact not much competiton

Imo much better than later Epos and leave room for source or amp upgrade

Hi,

Have you tried single wiring your 751 speakers?

Maybe really worth doing if you have not done so already (even with the supplied links) although jumpers or 'F' connection will be much better.

I don't think changing the speakers will do anything all the time the system is bi-wired.

Certainly if you can use a soldering iron, trying proper jumpers (i.e. made from speaker cable) is well worth doing, they're really easy to make.

Unfortunately I don't go through London very often at all, otherwise I could lend you some.

Great responses and a good variety too, for which many thanks indeed, all.

Sources: Yes, it is right that sources are compromised compressed types. External DAC is the way to go for me I think.

The Naim ND5 XS idea is a great one and I'm on the Naim mailing list so I was aware of it, but it is just too much money for me to spend even second hand.

I've set a budget of £750 for improvements accurately reflecting all the other things I need to do with my cash and won’t be tempted into more than that.

I don’t have too much spare time either so I'm not going to be ripping my CDs again. All my music and tons of playlists are on iTunes and in the cloud.

I think a sensibly priced good quality external DAC for my iPod Classic and/or laptop that has Wi-fi and/or Bluetooth for other sources is likely a way to go for me. Maybe something like the Arcam irDAC-II DAC (I can't find an 30pin iPod dock out cable with that type of square USB input – do they even exisit?). http://www.sevenoakssoundandvi...8EAkYASABEgLscPD_BwE

 I'd be pleased to hear your reasonable cost experiences and ideas (though I don’t fancy the Rasberry Pi).

Speakers: Thanks and great suggestions for me to look at in the used market, which I've been doing.

Last night I was watching a Sky Arts concert in HD and examining my set-up critically. I could immediately see room for improvement. My 751s had gradually become too close to the wall and, when sitting in the main sofa, I could see that, due to using an old speaker stand for the right speaker and a top of built-in cabinet placement for the left speaker (which necessary for the room - the layout of furniture isn’t going to change), the tweeters (being centrally located in the 751s) were quite a bit lower than my ears are when sitting.

I used some large hardback books to raise the height of the 751s eventually to about 20cm and moved the speakers out from the wall so that they are now about roughly 20cm away for the wall. I also toed them in slightly and gradually until the stereo image just seemed "right".

The effect was a significant improvement: It opened up the high end, refocused the mid-range and especially improved the stereo image. It remove a little sonic "wool" while retaining a decent firm low end. For example, the snare drum hits were absolutely dead central and present in the room and panned instruments seemed more spatially And this is just them resting on books.   I'll spend time at the weekend on revalidating the right place for the speakers.

Now I need to find a much more solid way to raise the speaker on the cabinet (I am thinking black bricks or slate tiles or similar) and a taller stand for the right. The current stand is 50cm high and where they are now on the books is more like 68/70cm high. Possibly the 751s will stay after all - they really are very capable units.

Biwire/single wire:

It is pretty irritating to be advised to go single wired. When I bought the 751s with Naim pre and power, the Naim dealer guy who demoed them and sold them using Naim speaker cable bi-wired. I've always hated this cable frankly, it being thick, inflexible and horrible to work with. But I told myself it was the "right" cable - like the guy said.  So are you guys recommending I only connect one of the bi-wire  pairs to the terminals and then use cables to connect the terminals together? I really don't get the logic as to why that should be better than bi-wire. Then again, the bi-wire / not bi-wire debate always seemed to be highly subjective rather than have sound scientific basis.

There seems to be little controversy regarding avoiding bi-wiring Naim gear; more like vociferous agreement, from my years of watching this forum. 

I believe the recommendation has been repeated by Richard Dane, and Naim officials, if memory serves.  

Nick

Naim pretty much always recommends  single wiring It sounds like You may have a doubled up set of naim naca 5 wire- stiff unyielding and not too attractive. I would just single wire and use a length of the other set to make a jumper between the terminals. As far as speaker stands,I have the harbeth 30.1, but did not want to go completely bonkers for stands (and in fact harbeth believes proper height stands are all that are needed. For me that turned out to be two folding iron bookcases from the container store (don't know if you have those there).square silicone (kitchen mats) under each speaker- and storage for heavy books to weigh the whole thing down

You could find some ATC12s for that kind of money. Be prepared for the 150 to get hot though.

rze99 posted:

 

Biwire/single wire:

It is pretty irritating to be advised to go single wired. When I bought the 751s with Naim pre and power, the Naim dealer guy who demoed them and sold them using Naim speaker cable bi-wired. I've always hated this cable frankly, it being thick, inflexible and horrible to work with. But I told myself it was the "right" cable - like the guy said.  So are you guys recommending I only connect one of the bi-wire  pairs to the terminals and then use cables to connect the terminals together? I really don't get the logic as to why that should be better than bi-wire. Then again, the bi-wire / not bi-wire debate always seemed to be highly subjective rather than have sound scientific basis.

 

Irritating? Lacking sound scientific basis? Etc.

Don't shot the messenger. And I would assume that Naim would in principle happily sell twice the amount of wire -- good for business. Naim advising against bi-wire, to me, looks like a pretty strong case against it. Make your life easy -- follow Naim's advice. They know their boxes pretty well. CommonSense.com....

Sure - not shooting any messengers,  I hadn't been aware until receiving these posts that bi-wiring was now not recommended by Naim having previously been advised the other way.

There is a sound scientific basis for not bi-wiring.

It doubles the capacitative load on the amp presented by the cables.
The reason NAC A5 is the way it is is to increase the series inductance and decrease the parallel capacitance seen by the amp.

I don't recall Naim ever recommending bi-wiring, but I may be wrong in that; it may also have been the dealer's own personal opinion not that of Naim.

As far as I know, having owned Naim amplifiers since 1983, Naim have never recommended biwiring and their speakers have only ever had single wire sockets. Some Naim dealers have had funny ideas over the years I'm sure, but if they did recommend biwiring it would have been very much a personal view. 

The best, and no cost option in this case is to cut off one set of wires and use the plugs to create an F connection at the speaker end. Much better than links.