250 DR vs 300
Posted by: analogmusic on 06 September 2017
I'm curious about the differences between a 250 DR and a 300 Non DR
Has anyone been able to compare these with a 282/HC?
It never hurts to state the obvious. Sometimes it can get buried or overlooked.
I changed the IC between my 272 /xpsdr and 220dr from naim (standard) to chord tuned arai
Now that was an eye opener and must bring the 250 closer to (either) of the 300's
The 250 and 300 are so different in character. I can see how changing the sound of a 250 might make it more enjoyable. But it will never sound remotely like a 300. Not possible. Any more than a 300 could approach a 500 or a 200 could approach a 250. Going up the hierarchy doesn't give you more of the same once you clear the 200.
analogmusic posted:how does 300 DR improve on 250 DR
The 300DR made the speakers seem much, much bigger. I've heard the 250.2 v 250DR v 300DR and would say that the performance improvement between the 250DR and 300DR was very significantly bigger than between the 250.2 and 250DR.
That said, I would agree with JN earlier in the thread. Putting a SCDR on your 282 would be the next step I would make.
I owned a 250-2 for years, and I'm not sure I would ever use the word transparent to describe it's overall sound. I have auditioned the 250-2 DR, and while I feel there is an improvement over the older amp, it's not a very large difference, I still wouldn't call the DR version a transparent sounding amp.
Don't get me wrong, I think the 250-2 DR or non DR, is a great amp, but I believe the 300 takes things to a different level. At least it did in my system and speakers. If I didn't feel guilty about spending the money, the 300 DR would be sitting in my rack, I think my SN2 with a SCDR, easily competes with the 250-2 I owned. Not so much with a 300 DR.
I recently asked the same question and ended up going for non DR300 this was from 250-2. The only side by side was when I traded in we tested both amps one after the other on some big Odeon (I think) speakers and the 250-2 sounded extremely lightweight next to the 300 just smaller, thinner and narrower.
Bob the Builder posted:I recently asked the same question and ended up going for non DR300 this was from 250-2. The only side by side was when I traded in we tested both amps one after the other on some big Odeon (I think) speakers and the 250-2 sounded extremely lightweight next to the 300 just smaller, thinner and narrower.
I am about to trade my olive 250 for a non-dr 300 (assuming I can agree price to change with dealer whilst trading in a few additional bits and pieces!). It will be due a service in 2-3 years, which sounds perfect for timing to save up for that + dr
then I will have “arrived” at my target (subject to Fraim, ps update to my LP12, speakers, pre amp...????) of NDS/300 that I have been aiming at for the last 6-7 years
Having just re-read this thread, a thought has occurred to me. Would anyone realistically expect a 300DR owner to ever say anything other than how much better his/her amp sounds than any 250? It's pretty obvious they wouldn't have gone out and spent over £4k more if they hadn't preferred the sound (unless, like one or two on this forum, they bought 'blind' in the belief that bigger and more expensive = guaranteed better, regardless of speakers, room characteristics etc.). They can describe as much as they like the 'iron grip' and 'transparency', but I would suggest that once the side by side testing is over you rapidly become accustomed to that which you're hearing every day. This isn't a meaningful debate, but rather an 'after the fact' justification of expenditure. My justification for these thoughts is, as stated previously, setting out to buy the 300DR having read all reviews, forum comments etc. Money was not an issue, a budget having been set aside for my upgrade (including SL speaker cables). The dealer demo session saw the 300DR confirmed for home demo, but SL speaker cables losing out to cheaper Chord Epic Reference. It was the home demo that changed everything. That same 300DR simply did not suit my speakers in my room, whereas the 250DR did. All the reviews and other people's opinions counted for nothing. In my circumstances the 300DR was not the 'better' amp - end of story.
The point of my ramblings? There is no such thing as 'better' in anything other than ones own circumstances and listening environment. You can argue on specifications until the cows come home, but the proof of the pudding, unless you're simply obsessed with climbing 'up' the Naim tree, is in the listening. By all means tell me what you prefer, but please don't try and tell me it's better.
In my case it wasn't a matter of spending more. I just opted not to spend anything and stick with my non Naim amplification. That was how unimpressed I was with the 250. Didn't think we could ever get a system as good as one which would contain a 300. But never say never.
As for "better", see above. Well said.
Timmo1341 posted:Having just re-read this thread, a thought has occurred to me. Would anyone realistically expect a 300DR owner to ever say anything other than how much better his/her amp sounds than any 250? It's pretty obvious they wouldn't have gone out and spent over £4k more if they hadn't preferred the sound (unless, like one or two on this forum, they bought 'blind' in the belief that bigger and more expensive = guaranteed better, regardless of speakers, room characteristics etc.). They can describe as much as they like the 'iron grip' and 'transparency', but I would suggest that once the side by side testing is over you rapidly become accustomed to that which you're hearing every day. This isn't a meaningful debate, but rather an 'after the fact' justification of expenditure. My justification for these thoughts is, as stated previously, setting out to buy the 300DR having read all reviews, forum comments etc. Money was not an issue, a budget having been set aside for my upgrade (including SL speaker cables). The dealer demo session saw the 300DR confirmed for home demo, but SL speaker cables losing out to cheaper Chord Epic Reference. It was the home demo that changed everything. That same 300DR simply did not suit my speakers in my room, whereas the 250DR did. All the reviews and other people's opinions counted for nothing. In my circumstances the 300DR was not the 'better' amp - end of story.
The point of my ramblings? There is no such thing as 'better' in anything other than ones own circumstances and listening environment. You can argue on specifications until the cows come home, but the proof of the pudding, unless you're simply obsessed with climbing 'up' the Naim tree, is in the listening. By all means tell me what you prefer, but please don't try and tell me it's better.
I know what you mean Timmo and agree with your essential point. The next step up the hierarchy isn't always better. It has to judged in your own system, in your own room and by your own ears. This has happened to me a few times. I tried a 555PSDR on my nDAC and in the system I had then it did too much and I initially stuck with the PSU I had and then preferred the non-DR 555PS; I tried a 252 (twice) thinking in the Naim hierarchy it must be 'better' than my 282. I wasn't (for me).
Timmo1341 posted:Having just re-read this thread, a thought has occurred to me. Would anyone realistically expect a 300DR owner to ever say anything other than how much better his/her amp sounds than any 250? It's pretty obvious they wouldn't have gone out and spent over £4k more if they hadn't preferred the sound (unless, like one or two on this forum, they bought 'blind' in the belief that bigger and more expensive = guaranteed better, regardless of speakers, room characteristics etc.). They can describe as much as they like the 'iron grip' and 'transparency', but I would suggest that once the side by side testing is over you rapidly become accustomed to that which you're hearing every day. This isn't a meaningful debate, but rather an 'after the fact' justification of expenditure. My justification for these thoughts is, as stated previously, setting out to buy the 300DR having read all reviews, forum comments etc. Money was not an issue, a budget having been set aside for my upgrade (including SL speaker cables). The dealer demo session saw the 300DR confirmed for home demo, but SL speaker cables losing out to cheaper Chord Epic Reference. It was the home demo that changed everything. That same 300DR simply did not suit my speakers in my room, whereas the 250DR did. All the reviews and other people's opinions counted for nothing. In my circumstances the 300DR was not the 'better' amp - end of story.
The point of my ramblings? There is no such thing as 'better' in anything other than ones own circumstances and listening environment. You can argue on specifications until the cows come home, but the proof of the pudding, unless you're simply obsessed with climbing 'up' the Naim tree, is in the listening. By all means tell me what you prefer, but please don't try and tell me it's better.
No I actually heard the amp I was trading in next to the amp I was buying with the same pre and speakers and in the same room and the 300 was better in every respect and when I got it home my partner who had not been at the demo agreed that the 300 sounded better in every respect it had nothing to do with justification of expenditure, being duped, buying blind, forum advice, climbing the Naim ladder or anything else for that matter it was just better in the dealers room and in my room.
The thing you are missing Timmo is that not everyone on this forum can afford to buy new and therefore cannot get home demo's and multiple amps from dealers but of course when you are spending over 10k dealers are happy to let you demo whatever you like.
Bob the Builder posted:Timmo1341 posted:Having just re-read this thread, a thought has occurred to me. Would anyone realistically expect a 300DR owner to ever say anything other than how much better his/her amp sounds than any 250? It's pretty obvious they wouldn't have gone out and spent over £4k more if they hadn't preferred the sound (unless, like one or two on this forum, they bought 'blind' in the belief that bigger and more expensive = guaranteed better, regardless of speakers, room characteristics etc.). They can describe as much as they like the 'iron grip' and 'transparency', but I would suggest that once the side by side testing is over you rapidly become accustomed to that which you're hearing every day. This isn't a meaningful debate, but rather an 'after the fact' justification of expenditure. My justification for these thoughts is, as stated previously, setting out to buy the 300DR having read all reviews, forum comments etc. Money was not an issue, a budget having been set aside for my upgrade (including SL speaker cables). The dealer demo session saw the 300DR confirmed for home demo, but SL speaker cables losing out to cheaper Chord Epic Reference. It was the home demo that changed everything. That same 300DR simply did not suit my speakers in my room, whereas the 250DR did. All the reviews and other people's opinions counted for nothing. In my circumstances the 300DR was not the 'better' amp - end of story.
The point of my ramblings? There is no such thing as 'better' in anything other than ones own circumstances and listening environment. You can argue on specifications until the cows come home, but the proof of the pudding, unless you're simply obsessed with climbing 'up' the Naim tree, is in the listening. By all means tell me what you prefer, but please don't try and tell me it's better.
No I actually heard the amp I was trading in next to the amp I was buying with the same pre and speakers and in the same room and the 300 was better in every respect and when I got it home my partner who had not been at the demo agreed that the 300 sounded better in every respect it had nothing to do with justification of expenditure, being duped, buying blind, forum advice, climbing the Naim ladder or anything else for that matter it was just better in the dealers room and in my room.
The thing you are missing Timmo is that not everyone on this forum can afford to buy new and therefore cannot get home demo's and multiple amps from dealers but of course when you are spending over 10k dealers are happy to let you demo whatever you like.
Bob, I think, having read and re-read your post, that we essentially agree. I said the 300 was the better amp in the dealer's room, but not in my lounge (65 sq. mtrs vs 30 sq. mtrs).
As for not being able to buy new and thus get home demo, I guess my response is you're taking a bit of a gamble, although I suppose selling on already second hand amps won't involve a huge financial loss. Pleased your acquisition worked out for you, you just need to accept not all remarks are directed personally at you, just those whom the cap fits!
Yes there is a slight risk of buying used and although with the 300 I did get to listen although only at the dealers I have bought many items 'blind' but with Naim if you are careful then you never lose out when it comes to selling on.
Timmo I didn't think the post was aimed at me personally I'm not twelve but admittedly I did respond in a slightly annoyed tone in response to the slighly condescending tone of your post.
I bought my 300 DR without audition, though having swapped from 250.2 to 300 with SL2s in a previous life, I knew exactly what I’d be getting. Actually, I didn’t, in retrospect, because the change I got was way beyond my hopes and expectations. The 300 has transformed my speakers - it’s like they were sleeping with the 250DR and they are now exuberant and full of life. Other than my speakers, which I bought having had a pair before, I didn’t listen to any of my system before buying the various parts, though I did speak to Naim and a couple of dealers whose opinions I value. Perhaps that makes me a bad person, or simply a fool. Oh well.
Nigel that's very positive feedback, very pleased to read this.
" it’s like they were sleeping with the 250DR and they are now exuberant and full of life. "
Anyway - it does make sense.
How else could Naim charge double the money of a NAP 250DR ?
My friendly dealer is letting me try before I buy the used (non dr) 300, so I can test it at home...
analogmusic posted:Nigel that's very positive feedback, very pleased to read this.
" it’s like they were sleeping with the 250DR and they are now exuberant and full of life. "
Anyway - it does make sense.
How else could Naim charge double the money of a NAP 250DR ?
Couldn't be anything to do with a seperate power supply in an extra box?
it is, but I'm sure there is some further engineering too....
+ Naim selects the better regulators for products higher in range. Obviously, only Naim can confirm if thats the case here too.
analogmusic posted:it is, but I'm sure there is some further engineering too....
I'm sure one of the High Priests will be along soon to enlighten the flock.
analogmusic posted:it is, but I'm sure there is some further engineering too....
there's extra heatsinking and fan cooling too. Otherwise, it's all about giving space to the electronics and moving them away from the big power supply and into their own separate "quiet room".
What I don’t understand, and I’ve experienced it twice, is that despite the 300 being only a little more powerful, it makes the speakers sound so much bigger. It’s like it shakes them and brings them to life in a way that the 250 just doesn’t.
The cost difference is easy to explain in an extra case and the two Burndy wires, plus the fan and things, but as for the difference in sound quality.....
I fully understand Richard's comments. What I don't quite get is why, if there is such a 'night and day' difference, Naim produce any power amps with an integrated power supply. Given they've never aimed their products at any other than aficionados, I can't see much of a problem with an extra case for all such amps, leaving the integrateds for those without such discerning lugs or deep pockets.
Hungryhalibut posted:What I don’t understand, and I’ve experienced it twice, is that despite the 300 being only a little more powerful, it makes the speakers sound so much bigger. It’s like it shakes them and brings them to life in a way that the 250 just doesn’t.
The cost difference is easy to explain in an extra case and the two Burndy wires, plus the fan and things, but as for the difference in sound quality.....
Careful Nigel. Any insinuation of magical incantations and the like will have the engineering faction jumping all over you!
Timmo, it's expensive to do so and effectively doubles the cost of the amp. And probably isn't worth doing until you have the constituent parts of something like a NAP250 - i.e. regulated amplifier, big Tx, top transistors etc..
Don't forget, the NAP250DR is a superb power amp by any standard, but a NAP300 is better still - as it should be for double the money.