s400 sound

Like any other speaker, the 400 is sensitive to room positioning and tuning. We   had a pair at home for a month and couldn't make them work in our lounge. We were hoping for a kind of latter day SL2 but what we got was a rather muted presentation, lacking in drive and the rhythmic vitality that Naim majors on. We had the dealer in. That didn't work. The day after they took them away, we heard them again, set up at the dealers for a Naim event. They sounded stunning. If only we could have made them sound like that at home.

Keep trying with fine tuning and positioning. If there is a sweet spot you will find it. The interaction of the speakers with the room is what makes them work. Not the class of amplification. They are not a difficult load. A Class A wouldn't have any trouble.

Adjusting the front spikes for tilt makes a big difference. I have mine a couple of millimetres out. Fraimchips help too if you have a non carpeted floor.

have you checked polarity of speakers.try this .  play track with a lot of bass.   with covers off.  observe speaker cones when bass is playing ,if in phase  lhs  and rhs speaker should be pushing out at the time, if not the phase is wrong

longmanjon posted:

ive managed to pick up. 200 cheap, which Is a 2005 model so probably needs a service does anyone know the cost of service nowadays?

Have a look on the Class A website. They did mine three years ago, great service.

audio1946 posted:

have you checked polarity of speakers.try this .  play track with a lot of bass.   with covers off.  observe speaker cones when bass is playing ,if in phase  lhs  and rhs speaker should be pushing out at the time, if not the phase is wrong

Certainly a relevant thought if  not already checked - however not necessarily easy to assess unless they are within reach and you can put a (cautious) finger in front of each to be hit by the cone, and play something with a bass drum beat - far simpler is reverse the polarity of connection to one and see if the bass is restored, or gets worse.

audio1946 posted:

have you checked polarity of speakers.try this .  play track with a lot of bass.   with covers off.  observe speaker cones when bass is playing ,if in phase  lhs  and rhs speaker should be pushing out at the time, if not the phase is wrong

Not correct;  yes the speaker cones 'appear' to extend as if outwards,  but they are going in the opposite direction as well,  its what cones do to get the volume at low frequencies,    & you cannot follow this movement enough to compare each channel.  

I use a 1.5v battery & the bass cones move either in or out when the same battery polarity is applied.  However it does not work if the driver has a series capacitor - which is unusual in a bass driver filter, but not unheard of.

yes you can at low frequency   using batterys on speakers is asking for trouble

OK 1946,  you do your thing,  I'll just stick with what the rest of the world does.

audio1946 posted:

yes you can at low frequency   using batterys on speakers is asking for trouble

Other than DC you can only do it with an impulse, such as bass drum strike - as Mike-B observed, a bass note, however low, is just vibpbration, in and out, at the note frequency.

longmanjon 

ive managed to pick up. 200 cheap, which Is a 2005 model so probably needs a service does anyone know the cost of service nowadays?

just need to pick up a used 172 next and some a5 cable

This my set-up. Although my 172/200 is 2014 vintage. I am pretty happy with the sound. I am looking for a 272/250 as my next step. I know second hand 272s are not common but a 272/200 is very good. 

Which Speakers are you using with that setup Steve?

I also wonder would it be more beneficial to get a 250.2 with a 172 or a 272 with the 200, is the difference with the 172/272 that great to warrant the extra expense and are there newer products being lined which I should wait for instead of making the more expensive move to a 272 now?

Innocent Bystander posted:

audio1946 posted:

yes you can at low frequency   using batterys on speakers is asking for trouble

Other than DC you can only do it with an impulse, such as bass drum strike - as Mike-B observed, a bass note, however low, is just vibpbration, in and out, at the note frequency.

Placing the speakers facing each other with just small gap (nearly touching), then playing with the polarity of one speaker makes relative phase "synchronicity" very easy to determine. Having said that, I'd be surprised if a 1.5V battery could do any damage to a decent speaker (no warranty implied). Place a 1K resistor in series just to be sure?

Some on here say that even absolute phase matters, and a DC test is the easiest way to check that. But I'm not sure what I'd be looking for. Should the cones push "out" when the +ve terminal of the battery is applied to the +ve terminal of the speaker?

One thing that is less easy to determine is the relative phase of the higher-frequency drivers. Some might say it doesn't matter (not bl00dy likely, given the "attention to detail" exhibited by many on this forum), but I'd still not be happy if I knew/suspected that my BMR was out-of-phase with the bass drivers. It might be moot, given that the signal passes through the X-over and this may affect the timing of the drivers anyway. Capacitors and inductors have a way of doing that. I guess it comes down to the skill of the designer, and preserving the relative phase and timing of the signal to the drivers (and to our ears) is a goal when designing decent speakers.

Just make sure you are not throwing money at the problem when it may be the case that you simply don't like the speakers. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

Just make sure you are not throwing money at the problem when it may be the case that you simply don't like the speakers. 

no im certainly not trying to do that, just adding extra discussions to the thread.

I actually do like the speakers and am gradually getting used to the difference of sound, I have the 200 arriving this week with some naca5 so will give that a trial to see how this changes things, I shall then see if I really need to change the source at all.

longmanjon posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

Just make sure you are not throwing money at the problem when it may be the case that you simply don't like the speakers. 

no im certainly not trying to do that, just adding extra discussions to the thread.

I actually do like the speakers and am gradually getting used to the difference of sound, I have the 200 arriving this week with some naca5 so will give that a trial to see how this changes things, I shall then see if I really need to change the source at all.

Wow, a complete change of system, possibly?! Was that on the cards when you bought the S400s, or simply that you feel you're on track for something wonderful compared tomyour old system?

just the slippery slope I think, we shall see how each step pans out, but the s400' were something I have wanted for a long time so when a cheap pair came up I thought what the hell

longmanjon posted:

just the slippery slope I think, we shall see how each step pans out, but the s400' were something I have wanted for a long time so when a cheap pair came up I thought what the hell

Same here. I've bought a pair 600's without even listening to them.

Ovators - regardless the model - have some aspects which are very important for me: they look absolutely fabulous, they have large metal grills (I have 4 kids running around) and 64 kg cannot be pushed over even by my oldest kid and wife together.

On this forum we tend to focus on how things sound, but that is only one aspect. No hifi can beat my Piano though.

Ardbeg10y posted:

longmanjon posted:

just the slippery slope I think, we shall see how each step pans out, but the s400' were something I have wanted for a long time so when a cheap pair came up I thought what the hell

Same here. I've bought a pair 600's without even listening to them.

Ovators - regardless the model - have some aspects which are very important for me: they look absolutely fabulous, they have large metal grills (I have 4 kids running around) and 64 kg cannot be pushed over even by my oldest kid and wife together.

On this forum we tend to focus on how things sound, but that is only one aspect. No hifi can beat my Piano though.

Surely not, how can a silly old piano sound anywhere near as good as a hifi costing thousands of pounds....joking

longmanjon posted:

Which Speakers are you using with that setup Steve?

I also wonder would it be more beneficial to get a 250.2 with a 172 or a 272 with the 200, is the difference with the 172/272 that great to warrant the extra expense and are there newer products being lined which I should wait for instead of making the more expensive move to a 272 now?

I have S400s. Naca5. All very catholic. I think a 272/200 combo would be a better bet than a 172/250, regardless of the vintage of the 250. My aim is for a 272/250 with a power supply. The logical path for amplification for the S400s is in my opinion:-

172/200 - 272/200 -272/250 -272/PS/250 -NDS/PS/252/PS/250.

As for your initial query re the bass weight of the S400s, I think they're fine. Sure a better amp will give them more gravitas, but my motivation for climbing up thhe ladder is more to do with musical involvement.

But the system as it stands now is very good.  I am still enjoying it, and am addicted to both rediscovering my existing albums and aquiring new music.

My first introduction to the S400s was "Strong" by London Grammar. I have a 24/48 download from HDtracks. Seismic is an appropriate adjective.

I have also heard the Statement/S800 combo with this track. Seismic however is a bit lacking as a descriptor with this combo in control. More like a star quake leading to supernova.

London Grammar played Perth last Saturday. Sadly I didn't get to see them. Next time!

Some nice recommendations there steve, actually I'm off to see London grammar in October for my birthday so will be interesting to see how that sounds in comparison 

Interesting I received some naca5 today to use on the s400 but when trying to fit them to the speakers the pins on the plugs are too wide and the only way to get them to fit is to bend them inwards, has anyone else had this before?

Special plugs for ovators

Really?

Yes.