A penny for your thoughts? Replacing a CDS3/555PS with a streamer

French Rooster posted:

....

One last point : tonym and dark bear found the melco / dave boring. They preferred the melco/ previous chord dac combination.  So it is interesting that you found the contrary.

A lot of mystery in this comparison.....

 

Hi French Rooster,

I may have been in the room with TonyM and Darke Bear at the time.  We all preferred DAVE's predecessor in Tony's system because there was a relentless edginess to the sound with DAVE that disappeared with Tony's older dac.  But I don't recall us finding DAVE boring.  Relentless & tiring after 20 minutes but not boring.

Hence my comment about this being absent in the session this morning.

Best regards, FT

Clive B posted:

... When do you think you will be doing round two?

Hi Clive, I understand that the 555PSDR arrives in January, so shortly thereafter, I guess.

Talk about suspense!

FT

Hi FT,I have heard the Dave alone,and also the Blu2/Dave together,but this was with Simaudio gear,and it was absolutely stunning.Currently I have the Hugo 2 at home,I have had it here for about a month trying various configurations.It is said to be in the ballpark of the Dave,and I am blown away how good it sounds when used directly into an amp,as a DAC and pre.Honestly if I could start over,I would go with a Dave directly to an amp,Fed from my Core.Like you said,even with the Hugo 2,no harshness at all,HUGE 3 dimensional soundstage,and plenty of foot tapping,and I have lived with this configuration for the last 2 weeks,so it is not the case of just the initial “wow” factor.I say,definitely pursue it further,I am talking to my dealer next week to see if we can work something out.These comparisons are to my normal Core/272/XPSDR/250DR.

Foot tapper posted:

French Rooster posted:

....

One last point : tonym and dark bear found the melco / dave boring. They preferred the melco/ previous chord dac combination.  So it is interesting that you found the contrary.

A lot of mystery in this comparison.....

 

Hi French Rooster,

I may have been in the room with TonyM and Darke Bear at the time.  We all preferred DAVE's predecessor in Tony's system because there was a relentless edginess to the sound with DAVE that disappeared with Tony's older dac.  But I don't recall us finding DAVE boring.  Relentless & tiring after 20 minutes but not boring.

Hence my comment about this being absent in the session this morning.

Best regards, FT

You were indeed present for that session FT, as was Mr Darke Bear and J.N. Having been using DAVE in my system for a couple of weeks previously, and not been comfortable with its sound, I'd left him in situ without comment from me whilst we played a few tunes. I then mentioned I'd like to put my old QBD76HDSD back, and within a few bars all present breathed a sigh of relief. DAVE certainly is not boring, and I really wanted to like him (I tried DAVE twice on home trial for extended periods) because he does lots of wonderful things in terms of detail and presence, but possesses an unnatural and tiresome sheen which made for uncomfortable listening. I chatted to Rob Watts and Alan Ainsley of Melco (previously with Chord) at the recent Signals show, & they were rather surprised at my experience. Interestingly, Alan still uses a QBD...

The only things I didn't try with DAVE, and which my dealer thinks might make a positive difference, is to use the DAC in negative phase, and although I did engage the HF filter for a brief period, I didn't really detect a difference so perhaps I should try this over a more extended period. So maybe I might give DAVE a third chance.

As you may know, the Melco can access and stream music from any suitable source it finds on the network, but the sound quality certainly takes a dive if, say, I stream music files from my QNAP NAS.

Assuming FT follows through with this quite ludicrous idea  someone is going to pick up a bargain of a CD player.

Foot tapper posted:

French Rooster posted:

....

One last point : tonym and dark bear found the melco / dave boring. They preferred the melco/ previous chord dac combination.  So it is interesting that you found the contrary.

A lot of mystery in this comparison.....

 

Hi French Rooster,

I may have been in the room with TonyM and Darke Bear at the time.  We all preferred DAVE's predecessor in Tony's system because there was a relentless edginess to the sound with DAVE that disappeared with Tony's older dac.  But I don't recall us finding DAVE boring.  Relentless & tiring after 20 minutes but not boring.

Hence my comment about this being absent in the session this morning.

Best regards, FT

thanks for the precision. Tiring and boring are not the same,  i have certainly not memorized the good term. sorry 

Hi French Rooster,

Your reference to an older thread was a good one, thanks.  No offence taken at your post; it was fine!  Tony has chimed in with the definitive review now.

I have been told that truly magical things happen when the upsampling Blu2 is added on to DAVE, such as it can play CDs!  It also extracts even more music when used for streaming.

However, that would be another £8k on top of the £8k for DAVE, which is a bit more than I have in mind.

More to come when I've heard the NDS with 555PSDR.

Best regards, FT

Foot tapper posted:

Hi French Rooster,

Your reference to an older thread was a good one, thanks.  No offence taken at your post; it was fine!  Tony has chimed in with the definitive review now.

I have been told that truly magical things happen when the upsampling Blu2 is added on to DAVE, such as it can play CDs!  It also extracts even more music when used for streaming.

However, that would be another £8k on top of the £8k for DAVE, which is a bit more than I have in mind.

More to come when I've heard the NDS with 555PSDR.

Best regards, FT

no problem foot taper , kind of you to say me that.  I would be curious to hear the dave, it is an acclaimed product all over the world.  I had an xps on the nds before, then 555dr:  the soundstage opened a bit and the body of instruments, but it was not night and day for me. 

I had better improvement with optical bridge on linear ps , add to cisco 2960 switch and audioquest vodka lan cables.

But it is possible that dave / melco is better....

Foot tapper posted:

Ah, back now.

So, the NDS/XPSDR made perfectly fine music.  It was smooth, clear, lacked any indication of sharp, harsh edginess.  It would be easy to listen to for a long time.

Then we switched to DAVE.  Sometimes you just know after the first 2 or 3 notes when everything has stepped up a gear or 2.  This was one of those moments. 

The same band of musicians who had rolled into work that morning  to play on the NDS suddenly woke up.  This time they were enjoying their music.  Music had life.  It held my interest.  Transients soared much higher and the dynamic range just expanded.  Feet started to tap (when appropriate).  The spacial imaging sharpened up and grew by about 50% in all directions (and this is an aspect of hifi that I'm not normally that excited about).  Basslines had considerably more drive & power.  Unlike the last time that I'd heard a DAVE, this time there was no relentless edge to the sound. 

It sounded a step up from my CD player, in a way that the NDS/XPSDR was not.  Usual caveats about different room & system apply here.  However, I recall the first time that I heard a CDS3 with XPS in the system at home.  While I admired what it did very well, I didn't fall for it.  It took the 555PS to make all the difference to the CDS3.  I wonder if the same is true of the NDS?

So, round 1 is a clear win by some way for the Melco-DAVE over Melco-NDS/XPSDR.  I think we might need a round 2 with an NDS/555PSDR.  Oh, and the Wilson Yvette speakers?  Ugly and pricey they may be, but I do like the music that they make, even more than the Sophia 2s that I enjoyed at home a few years ago.

Has anyone else made a similar comparison?  If so, I would be most interested to learn of your experiences.

Best regards, FT

FT,

Whilst several forum contributors are very happy with it, my recent experience (see Melco thread) concurs with yours that Melco into NDS sounds dull. If you try NDS again, I’d strongly urge you to listen with a different server. I think you’ll get a very different result. 

Kevin

Harry posted:

The important thing is to have fun. I wish you lots of it. 

Fun is the one thing that money can't buy

(Lennon - McCartney)

My 2pence. Have spent a lot of time listening to the Core/Nova combo, finding it surely better than a CD5XS plugged into the Nova as amp. In time, I had compared CDX2 and HDX, finding the two more or less on a par. Yesterday I tried a SN2 vs the Nova as amp, still preferring the Nova.

On the other hand, months ago, in the very same store, I, the store's technician and a shop boy compared the rip of a CD (stored into a US) on an NDX/XPSDR into a 282/HCDR/250.2 with the CD played by a €900 multi-format Marantz player, plugged into the same amp, and the three of us in the room were seriously embarrassed at finding meaningful – and systematically audible – differences.

All is relative and I probably am a poor fool with ears clogged, but the Core/Nova system has struck me more than any of the Classic series streamers I have heard so far. Unless one craves for spending his life time using a computer to store his/her Cds one by one on a NAP, I'd give the new Uniti line a listen.

P.S. Anyway, the idea of ditching a CDS3/555PS looks weird to me. I think that behind this explosion of conversions to streamed music, wives have a much greater role than most are aware of, or agreeing to admit.

Unless one craves for spending his life time using a computer to store his/her Cds one by one on a NAP

I obviously meant 'on a NAS'. Whether it's a mistyping or a Freudian slip, it's what I meant.

kevin J Carden posted:

Foot tapper posted:

 

 

 

FT,

Whilst several forum contributors are very happy with it, my recent experience (see Melco thread) concurs with yours that Melco into NDS sounds dull. If you try NDS again, I’d strongly urge you to listen with a different server. I think you’ll get a very different result. 

Kevin

i would be curious to hear experiences of members with the antipodes servers, associated to the nds in upnp.  Some tried or have the innuos zenith, but the antipodes i don’t think....

The antipodes australian brand is very active and is improving its servers since many years now.  The antipodes dx reference is a serious beast, have very good reviews with dac connected in usb. But in upnp with a streaming dac as nds, it would be interesting to know how it performs.

kevin J Carden posted:

 FT,

Whilst several forum contributors are very happy with it, my recent experience (see Melco thread) concurs with yours that Melco into NDS sounds dull. If you try NDS again, I’d strongly urge you to listen with a different server. I think you’ll get a very different result. 

Kevin

Good tip, thank you Kevin.  So Core into NDS/555PSDR it is.  Once again, we keep being reminded how everything makes a difference to the ultimate sound quality, even the upstream server (i.e. Melco via ethernet vs Core via ethernet).

Best regards, FT

Foot tapper posted:

kevin J Carden posted:

 FT,

Whilst several forum contributors are very happy with it, my recent experience (see Melco thread) concurs with yours that Melco into NDS sounds dull. If you try NDS again, I’d strongly urge you to listen with a different server. I think you’ll get a very different result. 

Kevin

Good tip, thank you Kevin.  So Core into NDS/555PSDR it is.  Once again, we keep being reminded how everything makes a difference to the ultimate sound quality, even the upstream server (i.e. Melco via ethernet vs Core via ethernet).

Best regards, FT

A common feature of many of the threads on this forum is how expensive boxes can sound dull, but some other combination is so much better. I have gone through this myself, but the conclusion I have come to is that it’s not the boxes but the setup once you get to a certain price point. As Darke Bear has reported the spacing and relative position make a huge difference along with all the other setup things including dressing and cables. 

Another common complaint is that there are bad recordings. My experience is that when a recording is dull it is just a manifestation of the setup being non optimal. In my experience the setup is sometimes optimised on a group of favourite recordings to the detriment of others. The problem is that it’s easy to forget what the instruments sound like. 

I also read of the music being tiring. Again in my experience it’s the setup. 

Having visited the factory recently I am amazed that a Statement and 252/300 with an NDS/555 DR with SL speaker cable into £35k speakers can sound so uninspiring. Admitted the Statement was better. Using the Core instead of TIDAL was abysmal. Must have been a bad network day. My dealer also says he has been underwealmed in the past. It made the demo a disappointment for me as I really wanted to understand how much the boxes can improve the SQ. I left feeling my CDX2 into nDAC/XPSDR into 282/SCDR into 300DR into Sopra 2s all connected with SL is streaks ahead. It would not be if the setup is right.

Blackmorec made very interesting observations about distortion recently. The demo systems were distorting the signals. Anything that gets the timing wrong takes the natural sparkle, clarity and wow out of the musical notes.

Phil

French Rooster posted:

i would be curious to hear experiences of members with the antipodes servers, associated to the nds in upnp.  Some tried or have the innuos zenith, but the antipodes i don’t think....

The antipodes australian brand is very active and is improving its servers since many years now.  The antipodes dx reference is a serious beast, have very good reviews with dac connected in usb. But in upnp with a streaming dac as nds, it would be interesting to know how it performs.

Hi FR, my understanding is that Antipodes does not offer Ethernet outputs...only USB...so cannot be used with ND streamers or NDAC.

DrPo posted:

French Rooster posted:

i would be curious to hear experiences of members with the antipodes servers, associated to the nds in upnp.  Some tried or have the innuos zenith, but the antipodes i don’t think....

The antipodes australian brand is very active and is improving its servers since many years now.  The antipodes dx reference is a serious beast, have very good reviews with dac connected in usb. But in upnp with a streaming dac as nds, it would be interesting to know how it performs.

Hi FR, my understanding is that Antipodes does not offer Ethernet outputs...only USB...so cannot be used with ND streamers or NDAC.

However there are usb-spdif converters around, and good ones need not be expensive (Richard Dane was testing the Gustard U12 in this mode a year or so ago with initial favourable impression, though I don't recall seeing a conclusion. I had been impressed with it functioning as an isolator on a computer output.)

DrPo posted:

French Rooster posted:

i would be curious to hear experiences of members with the antipodes servers, associated to the nds in upnp.  Some tried or have the innuos zenith, but the antipodes i don’t think....

The antipodes australian brand is very active and is improving its servers since many years now.  The antipodes dx reference is a serious beast, have very good reviews with dac connected in usb. But in upnp with a streaming dac as nds, it would be interesting to know how it performs.

Hi FR, my understanding is that Antipodes does not offer Ethernet outputs...only USB...so cannot be used with ND streamers or NDAC.

Hi Dr Po,  the antipodes is like the uniticore: it can be used as a player with a dac with usb ( or usb/spdif converter) or as a nas ( like the uniticore in upnp mode with the nds).    The melco has 2 ethernet ports, one direct to the streaming dac ( like nds).  But with the nds, it is used also as a nas, the connection is just different.

So the uniticore and antipodes ds or dx are similar products.  

Hi FR, i checked again and you are right, the Antipodes user guide shows how to install MinimServer to act as UpnP server. I would also be interested as i am looking for a music-dedicated, completely silent alternative to my QNAP (it has to stay in the living room close to my rig) and the proprietary management of metadata in NAIM's Core is a turn-off or me. For some reason when first coming across Antipodes i thought they did not support Upnp.. Good to know..

DrPo posted:

Hi FR, i checked again and you are right, the Antipodes user guide shows how to install MinimServer to act as UpnP server. I would also be interested as i am looking for a music-dedicated, completely silent alternative to my QNAP (it has to stay in the living room close to my rig) and the proprietary management of metadata in NAIM's Core is a turn-off or me. For some reason when first coming across Antipodes i thought they did not support Upnp.. Good to know..

yes, this antipodes seems interesting but i don’t know how it performs with naim sources.

You have also the innuos zenith, some have tried and appreciate....

once you start ripping /streaming the cd player use will slowly disappear   what ever the quality/cost is   

While I have heard an NDS I've never seriously auditioned one, but a high end streamer is next on my list.  It's obvious from this forum that it's a well loved product but I would not buy a new one at the moment.  I'm obviously speculating, but Statement and Uniti make me think a new replacement product in the short to medium term is very likely.

...after many years of streaming and "DAC", I would not buy a streamer today (coming from Linn Majik, later KDS and Naim NDX and NDS). I went the route with a b$#€" good DAC and a great digital frontend (mR, Aurender,Auralic Aries femto, pimped Mac Mini). Why? It gives me the maximal flexibility in a very fast changing world of formats (dsd, flac, mqa) and services (tidal, qobuz, roon etc). If a new service pops up you I just change the frontend. So my tip: buy the best DAC you can have and use a flexible digital rendering unit. But be warned: source first rule stills apply- even here! One can not imagine how much difference btw. a frontend can be...crazy...it's just 0 or 1, right?

...my 2cents of course...good luck with your journey;-) that's a fun path to go!!

Ralf

I would also add IMO that building your own streaming solution makes the most sense the speed at which the digital music replay industry is progressing means that every couple of years major improvements are taking place.  Something like a 272 even pimped to the max with a 555DR will become outdated it will always sound very good and have a following but it will become dated. Alternatively you could buy an NDX, NDS which unlike the 272 can of course be brought up to date with a separate DAC but then you end up with a very, very expensive renderer.

So as T38.45 says an mR, Aurender ,Auralic Aries femto or pimped up Mac Mini into a top of the range DAC via a USB isolator and spdif converter is a much more flexible and upgradeable solution and at the price points you are quoting we are talking about a very, very good streaming set up and I'm sure that they are people out there who will put together a package for you.

I have been through a few streaming set ups with Naim UQ2 and ND5XS and then I added a Chord 2Qute which meant I couldn't justify what was in effect a £2,000 renderer so I traded the ND5 in and am now about to try a Mac Mini which can be upgraded to have a 1TB memory so a Network player and Nas rolled into one.

T38.45 posted:

...after many years of streaming and "DAC", I would not buy a streamer today (coming from Linn Majik, later KDS and Naim NDX and NDS). I went the route with a b$#€" good DAC and a great digital frontend (mR, Aurender,Auralic Aries femto, pimped Mac Mini). Why? It gives me the maximal flexibility in a very fast changing world of formats (dsd, flac, mqa) and services (tidal, qobuz, roon etc). If a new service pops up you I just change the frontend. So my tip: buy the best DAC you can have and use a flexible digital rendering unit. But be warned: source first rule stills apply- even here! One can not imagine how much difference btw. a frontend can be...crazy...it's just 0 or 1, right?

...my 2cents of course...good luck with your journey;-) that's a fun path to go!!

Ralf

My view is a little different. 

I too have a microRendu, in my case used in conjunction with a Hugo DAC in one of my systems. This combination is undoubtedly excellent value for money and punches well above its price point, and I am very happy with it from a sound quality perspectve. However, using a dedicated streamer (from Linn/Naim) has many advantages for the majority of people.

My Linn KDS/1 sounds better (to my ears) in my main system than my microRendu/Gustard/Chord Hugo combination, and no doubt the latest KDS/3 sounds even better. However the microRendu and similar rendering devices have a number of inherent disadvantages to offset its value for money:

- I have a background in IT and IT networks, and so although the microRendu was substantially more difficult to set up and get running reasonably reliably, I did succeed in the end. Others, with less IT knowledge or less patience may not have succeeded and may simply have given up

- although my microRendu based system is reasonably stable, it does have the occasional glitch (for no discernible reason) and it sometimes takes a little 'random noodling' to get back on line. I don't recall anything of this sort ever happening with my KDS/1

- more difficult to get access to Internet Radio stations.

Of course, there are some advantages too - support of dsd (Linn doesn't support the format), Roon support (I don't use the service but some swear by it) and the ability to replace the DAC if desired. However, the KDS (and to a limited extent the NDS with firmware) can also be upgraded, in Linn's case from KDS/0 through KDS/1, 2 and 3 .

Finally, the KDS/1 (or 2 or 3) is a one-box plug and play (albeit expensive) fantastic sounding solution that to me is just a more relaxing proposition than the multi-box, multi-interface system that demands regular noodling or fine tuning. Perhaps if I was a little younger, I would have a different opinion.      

So in summary, I guess it's horses for courses. 

I am very happy indeed with my KDS/1 dedicated streaming device in my main system. I am also relatively happy with my microRendu renderer/cuddly toy psu/Gustard U12 usb to spdif converter/Chord Hugo DAC in my second system.