NDS versus NDX

These things sound difficult but actually aren’t. Remember that if you connect the nas and the streamer to a switch, the files go from one to the other without touching the router. You then connect something like an airport express to the switch, which gives you the ability to control the music. That airport connects wirelessly to another airport, which is connected to the router, which enables internet radio and access to the Rovi booklets should you use them. I’m not sure how you connect the two airports wirelessly but there is a simple way no doubt. Whatever you do, get shot of those horrid Devolos. Remember also that you can run external Ethernet cables, thus avoiding digging up floors and ceilings. Where there is a will there is a way. It’s worth the effort  - most of the problems people bring here with streaming seem to be due to flaky networks. When set up properly, it’s a delight. People like Simon have helped me no end. 

Brick wall -- Bosch power drill?!

m.paul taylor posted:

The practicalities are daunting. The internet comes into a room which cannot in practical terms be linked by cable to my listening room. Any ideas? My dealer was not keen to link by wifi to my NDX

In this case, go for a solution that does not rely on wired streaming over your LAN. Buy a good DAC and feed it with a Raspberry Pi, mac mini, Core or similar directly via SPDIF or USB. It does not make very much sense to rely on a streamer that has been designed to work in a wired LAN if you cannot ensure a good wired connection to that streamer! 

Per an earlier post I made a couple of months ago I paid about £140 for ethernet cables in conduit run around two sides of our house buried below the soil. I did this in anticipation of the Nova I purchased, as HH says, well worth the effort.

I had BT move my phone access point to where it best suited my ideal broadband hub position.    It solved some difficult Ethernet routing & holes through four brick walls.  

We did the same when our Virgin cable was installed. It comes into the dining room, where all the network gubbins lives, with just a wire through the wall into the sitting room for the 272. Last year we had a new kitchen and while the ceiling was down we ran wires to the kitchen and study, for the QBs. 

Looks like problem solved and it looks like the upgrade is back on track

What was the problem ?

nigelb posted:

Nah…get an NDS. I have owned an NDX and now an NDS, both for several years and there is no comparison. Like you I have a 252 with a SuperCapDR and it is certainly capable of extracting the extra resolution, detail and subtly the NDS has on offer.

As others have said, a lengthy home demo should crystallise the differences between the NDX and NDS.

Appreciate the comment Nigel and chag-, regarding the upgrade to NDS do I wait for a new model or pull the trigger now btw..as a New Yorker soon to visit London is there a hifi shop that is a must visit?

 

Chag... posted:

I am afraid NDS is a no brainer at 252DR/300DR or higher level unless you want to hook NDX to an external DAC such as nDAC of the likes of Hugo and only use it asa

zoot posted:

nigelb posted:

Nah…get an NDS. I have owned an NDX and now an NDS, both for several years and there is no comparison. Like you I have a 252 with a SuperCapDR and it is certainly capable of extracting the extra resolution, detail and subtly the NDS has on offer.

As others have said, a lengthy home demo should crystallise the differences between the NDX and NDS.

Appreciate the comment Nigel and chag-, regarding the upgrade to NDS do I wait for a new model or pull the trigger now btw..as a New Yorker soon to visit London is there a hifi shop that is a must visit?

 

Chag... posted:

I am afraid NDS is a no brainer at 252DR/300DR or higher level unless you want to hook NDX to an external DAC such as nDAC of the likes of Hugo and only use it asa

I have absolutely no idea if and when the NDS will be superseded. Who knows, the NDS may be upgradable to the NDS2 which in turn may be a figment of our imagination!

Life is short and there are some NDSs pre loved available at the moment, possibly also ex dem from a dealer which is even better.

The source first mantra has yet to let me down.

zoot posted:

nigelb posted:

Nah…get an NDS. I have owned an NDX and now an NDS, both for several years and there is no comparison. Like you I have a 252 with a SuperCapDR and it is certainly capable of extracting the extra resolution, detail and subtly the NDS has on offer.

As others have said, a lengthy home demo should crystallise the differences between the NDX and NDS.

Appreciate the comment Nigel and chag-, regarding the upgrade to NDS do I wait for a new model or pull the trigger now btw..as a New Yorker soon to visit London is there a hifi shop that is a must visit?

I would rather buy a Naim DAC and front end it with a capable Ethernet -> SPDIF bridge or even with an integrated UPnP server+renderer solution a la Uniti Core, RPi + Allo DigiOne, RPi + HiFiBerry Digi+ Pro, etc. This gives you comparable sound quality (some prefer NDS to nDAC+555, some the other way round) but more flexibility, upgrade capabilities and flawless Tidal, Qobuz, etc. integration.

Actually I don't agree with the above (unless FM / DAB module from the NDX is important).

I own both nDAC + NDX + 555PS as well as NDS + 555PS DR. 

And for it's sheer musicality NDS +555PSDR is hard to beat.

And let's be honest - an argument that Tidal sounds better? Please....

Before anything, I would invest in the network. I've done so 2 years ago when I bought my current house and it has served me well - not only for audio. Mind that an NDS only can expose its full capacities when the network is good.

Thanks Ardbeg

what is involved in improving the network? What are the logistics and costs?

A lot of it has already been covered above. Get a good router. Run a cable to a good switch. I use a secondhand Cisco Catalyst 2960 8TCL, bought from the Bay for £50. Then run cables to the nas and the streamer. That's it really. Basic Cat 5e or Cat 6 is fine. You can dabble with poncy boutique cables later if you wish. Some have already been mentioned. If you live near me (SE Hampshire) you are most welcome to come and have a shufti. 

What source material is preferred? Ripped FLAC files or Tidal lossless? Convenience of Tidal is attractive 

Thanks HH. Very generous offer but I am in north west

m.paul taylor posted:

What source material is preferred? Ripped FLAC files or Tidal lossless? Convenience of Tidal is attractive 

I have tried both Tidal and Qobuz. I found the latter better but I would not consider these options particularly convenient. They are certainly cheap and good for discovering new music and for deciding whetehr to buy or not to buy a given album. But the support for organizing and managing a music library is very poor in comparison with what a good UPnP server (MinimServer, for instance) can offer, in particular for classical music.

Adam Zielinski posted:

Actually I don't agree with the above (unless FM / DAB module from the NDX is important).

I own both nDAC + NDX + 555PS as well as NDS + 555PS DR. 

And for it's sheer musicality NDS +555PSDR is hard to beat.

And let's be honest - an argument that Tidal sounds better? Please....

Adam, with what of the above you do not agree? What I wrote is that some users prefer NDS+555PSDR to NDX+nDAC+555PS and others the other way round. This is, I think, non debatable and can be easily assessed by parsing the relevant (and rather old, pre Hugo era!) posts in this forum on nDAC vs NDS. The OP will have to listen and make his own choice. In my post there is no claim that Tidal sounds better (than what?). My only claim is that a front-end to a nDAC (or, for that, to a NDS which however would imply bypassing its streaming module) allows flawless integration of Tidal, Qobuz and other internet streaming services. This is also, I believe, not debatable. In contrast, the NDS does not support Qobuz (to the best of my knowledge) and (as of the latest firmware) yields occasional dropouts with Tidal as reported by many in this forum. This is, by the way, not very surprising if you consider that the streaming module of the NDS is a relatively old design. I am not saying that the OP should not buy a NDS. I am just mentioning possible alternatives that, in my view, it is worth considering when thinking about upgrading.     

These were my considerations:

1. All devices which can be connected by cable to the network should be connected to the network by cable in order to keep bandwith for the devices which cannot be connected by cable, e.g. phones and tablets. Example: my TV (Loewe Art 40'), can connect to the network by cable and wifi. When it was connected by wifi, and my wife or kids were watching an online video (which they do more than using it as a regular TV), the bandwith availble for other devices dropped significantly - and so did audio quality. These days, TV, Computers, Raspberry Pi's, ChromeCasts, XBOX are all connected by cable.

2. Not an item discussed often on this forum, but I took security in consideration. I have switched off wireless on my providers supplied mandatory router and closed as much as possible ports. This router is connected to a Lan switch and a wifi bridge. On my local network, all traffic is allowed. This ensures that all kind of local streaming works seamless.

Based on these requirements (as much as cable as possible and security), I started to think how to implement this as good as feasible. If we were in a new house, I would have tried to get UTP-6 cable or fiber, but I appear to have an old house. My house was also in a very good state, so I could not lightly drill holes in walls, or in my 90 year old Italian granito floors etc ... But ... we needed a new floor in one of the ground floor rooms, so I asked the guy to create a hatch in the new floor. He did, and this allowed us to route some cabling through the 50 cm high basement. Not to every place, but we managed to get an UTP cable between the two rooms having the most electronics, and to get an UTP cable to the central place of the house: the fireplace. Since we have a spacious designer fireplace, we put the wifi bridge there as wel as the NAS (Network storage). So our wifi bridge is in the most central place of the house.

As a result of this, wifi is available in an equal / balanced circle in and around the house.

This process, took at least 3 months, but given the explosion of digital appliances (e.g. we have a large amount of Philips Hue light bulbs all using network capacity) investing in the network is a good thing even regardless audio quality.

Once we got the good network, I had to restart it only twice (in over 1.5 years) and it holds up well in my household with 2 (kind of) grown-ups, 4 kids and loads of friends getting in this house bringing their own devices.

Costs were maybe a 1000 Euros which includes a 500 Euro Synology NAS. There are other topics on this forum about the best routers. I have a few TP-LINK 8 port gigabit ethernet switches around which have a metal case and seem to work well.

I don't know your situation, but when we moved in our house, we decided that it was our last house (we are sub 40 years old) and we put every penny in it. This makes it easier to invest than when you are e.g. in a rental place.

Concluding: define requirments, make a design to reach this, define a budget, decide if you can do it yourself or need a professional and then start doing things.

m.paul taylor posted:

What source material is preferred? Ripped FLAC files or Tidal lossless? Convenience of Tidal is attractive 

I tried Tidal and found both the choice and the sound quality lacking. Files played from the nas sound a lot better, and hi res downloads better still. To me, relying on Tidal would be a complete waste of an NDS, or an NDX or 272 come to that. 

I didn't see anyone mention this, but using 2 x 555 power supplies makes a significant difference on my NDS too..  Ridiculously expensive I know...

I also switched to Chord Sarum to connect to my 552 and that was also a huge difference to me...

Good hunting  

Naimthatune posted:

I didn't see anyone mention this, but using 2 x 555 power supplies makes a significant difference on my NDS too..  Ridiculously expensive I know...

 

Ridiculously expensive, yes, ........... but ridiculously good? .................oh yeah!!! 

Naimthatune posted:

I didn't see anyone mention this, but using 2 x 555 power supplies makes a significant difference on my NDS too..  Ridiculously expensive I know...

I also switched to Chord Sarum to connect to my 552 and that was also a huge difference to me...

Good hunting  

I can imagine that, at such prices, negligible differences would be a bit difficult to justify. I hope that the differences are for the good!

Thank you for all your replies. The big day is tomorrow for a dem of the NDX with FM (which I already have) against the NDS. I am a bit sceptical because the set up (speakers, room dynamics, cabling, network quality and others I can't even imagine) will be different from my own home. It's a bit of a leap into the dark and an expensive one. I have already spent a large amount of money getting to where I am and see the extra for the NDS in that context. I feel much better informed for all your help and see there are alternative ways to go. 

On a totally different point, I have been trying to find out where the power supply to the 300DR fits into the Naim scheme of power supplies: any help?