Supernait2 “speed” and cables issue

Huge posted:

999inmydreams666 posted:

ChrisSU posted:

The burning question is....what source are you using? If the Supernait is an upgrade on whatever amp you had before, are your sources up to it, or is the better amp exposing their weakness? Is your gear set up properly (your dealer should help you with this?)  You mention RCA connections, which suggests that you probably have non-Naim sources - you should try to get cables that at least have DIN plugs on the amp end.

Regarding speaker cable, I would suggest getting NACA5 as you will then hear the amp the way it was designed to work. Once you're happy with the setup and everything is burned in, maybe try other cables for comparison.

source is a mac with flac files to a non naim dac and I’m happy with this with the sn2....I don’t find any weakenesses except for that thing I was wondering about speed. it’s a unique way to play music of course but this makes you answer....is all the rest  (consumer and mant hifi products) wrong as they seem to sound slower and we are used to that?

the dealer believes it’s useless to get rca-din cable if the source/dac is non naim.....!!!!

First the timing issue.

Naim amps are not artificially 'fast'.  In fact what they do with the design is to make the amp accurately respond to leading edges in transient signals.
Getting this accurate response whilst preserving both amplifier stability and fine detail in the signal is a hard thing to achieve, and most amp designs compromise the transient performance a little to make it easier to get unconditional stability. *

Taking the issue of the interconnect cable, I can confirm that, for any given cable quality using RCA -> DIN will give a superior sound. ^$

 

*  In the past I have designed audio amps, so I do know how difficult it is to achieve this.

*  This is also why NAC A5 (or an electrically comparable cable) is strongly recommended for use with Naim Amps.  True, with the integrated amps it's not actually essential, but the amps are designed to work best with the electrical characteristics of NAC A5.  Note also that Tellurium Q Black, DNM Resolution, and some other cables do have very similar electrical characteristics.

$  I still do build my own interconnect cables (mine are similar quality to a £500+ ready made cable but for a lot less cost, and I can fine tune the sound myself).

Moderated Post:  Huge, I've had to edit and remove reference to the name of someone who does not wish to have either their name or their products mentioned or discussed on this forum.

Thank you for this!

so....would a switch from sn2 to pre power combo (nac202 nap 200dr) sound maybe more “relaxed”? 

And....can I hope in a different cable from naca5 to “calm down” this sometimes too fast feeling? or it might be the opposite where some other cable brands may make this aspect worse?

Well, many people think the 200 sounds 'quick' or 'agile' or 'fast' and that the 250.2 sounds 'heavier' or 'slower'.

On the other hand, if you listen to live acoustic music it often sounds 'faster' or more dynamic than any electronic reproduction; so, in my opinion, I don't consider the 'fast' attribute of Naim amps to be a fault.

Maybe this a case of not liking the way Naim amps sound. To me they don’t sound fast, they just sound like real music. Whether you are listening to a string quartet, a folk guitarist, or a rock band live, the music is dynamic and exciting and has rough edges. Naim will portray this in a recording - it’s not polished or sanitised. 

You seem slightly fixated on slowing down this perceived speed. My simple view is to try some A5 cables, or TQB or Chord Odyssey. If you don’t like the sound with any of them, you don’t like Naim. You can’t use cables as tone controls. Nor can you choose cables to tame something that doesn’t need taming by discussion on a forum. Try some cables and if you don’t like the sound, get a different amplifier. Perhaps something more laid back is what’s required. Everyone’s taste is different. 

999inmydreams666 posted:

Hello everyone !!  I've just got a SN2 and it's perfect but I get a sensation of the music being kind of "faster" and this has to deal to the bass punch and articulation. I' ve heard my supernait2 with nordost speaker cables and they are very fast with beautiful punch and control....but still that sensation like you press 2x on the player!!!!

.....is there anything to "fix" this to my preferences or it is just a NAIM characteristic no matter what cable?

would it be different with naca5??

So as some are describing  for example TELLURIUMQ or other cables in the bass and prat section....are there any calm down" this aspect of “too much speed”?

I don’t know which one to choose....if go with naca nordost or tellurium regarding this aspect in particular!! which can make the situation better/worse??

thank you

What is the amp that was compared to the Supernait 2?

ryder. posted:

999inmydreams666 posted:

Hello everyone !!  I've just got a SN2 and it's perfect but I get a sensation of the music being kind of "faster" and this has to deal to the bass punch and articulation. I' ve heard my supernait2 with nordost speaker cables and they are very fast with beautiful punch and control....but still that sensation like you press 2x on the player!!!!

.....is there anything to "fix" this to my preferences or it is just a NAIM characteristic no matter what cable?

would it be different with naca5??

So as some are describing  for example TELLURIUMQ or other cables in the bass and prat section....are there any calm down" this aspect of “too much speed”?

I don’t know which one to choose....if go with naca nordost or tellurium regarding this aspect in particular!! which can make the situation better/worse??

thank you

What is the amp that was compared to the Supernait 2?

musical fidelity m6si...then a primare pre32+a32  and a rotel integrated ra1592 and finally a nait 5si but in a different session but I still don’t remember that speedin up things!

that’s why I was wandering...ok for the naim sound but the question is if it was the nordost causing this as they are usually described as fast cables!! 

Try comparing it to real live acoustic music.

Nobody can say if it's the Nordost cables as we cannot hear what you can hear, in the room with the system. Just try some of the suggested alternatives and you will know, otherwise you'll be wondering ad infinitum. It's really not that difficult. 

Unlike other cables that use more heavy wound copper,  Nordost cables usually don't carry any excess weight or meat to the sound. Some find them too dry and bright for their taste. This often can seem like they are " fast" as they can skip through rhythms and texture that other types of designs might wade through.

Although this isn't the preserve of just Nordost. Others that take a slimline thin conductor with minimal contact design give a lighter fleet of foot presentation. And of course those cables that does everything you'd want it to do.

Go into work on Monday morning:

"good morning - nice weekend"

"yes thanks - got my new hi-fi"

"good is it?"

"It's okay but it seems a bit fast and I think it's caused by the cables"

Reality check here required I think.

Hungryhalibut posted:

Nobody can say if it's the Nordost cables as we cannot hear what you can hear, in the room with the system. Just try some of the suggested alternatives and you will know, otherwise you'll be wondering ad infinitum. It's really not that difficult. 

I don't get the chance to demo at home anything but nordost right now....so I have to make the purchase that's why I am wondering soo much....and the options are not cheap either!!

TOBYJUG posted:

Unlike other cables that use more heavy wound copper,  Nordost cables usually don't carry any excess weight or meat to the sound. Some find them too dry and bright for their taste. This often can seem like they are " fast" as they can skip through rhythms and texture that other types of designs might wade through.

Although this isn't the preserve of just Nordost. Others that take a slimline thin conductor with minimal contact design give a lighter fleet of foot presentation. And of course those cables that does everything you'd want it to do.

ok thank you for this! so summing everything up...other options are naca5 or telluriumQ. am I takin the risk that the tellurium does the same as nordost considering its design? 

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Go into work on Monday morning:

"good morning - nice weekend"

"yes thanks - got my new hi-fi"

"good is it?"

"It's okay but it seems a bit fast and I think it's caused by the cables"

 

Reality check here required I think.

what do you mean?

Right, I’ll tell you what to do. As getting soldered NacA5 seems impossible for you, get some Tellurium Q Black. I’ve owned it and it’s very good indeed. It will let your nice new amplifier work really well. It comes pre-terminated, so your idiotic dealer won’t be challenged. Try and drive a bargain with your dealer, or see if some is available secondhand. Get at least 3m lengths. 

You’ll be pleased to know that I will add no more to this thread. 

Where in the world are you that you can get a home demo but only of Nordost?

yeti42 posted:

Where in the world are you that you can get a home demo but only of Nordost?

south of italy....sad but true.....!!

either this or ANTI NAIM dealers!!

999inmydreams666 posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Go into work on Monday morning:

"good morning - nice weekend"

"yes thanks - got my new hi-fi"

"good is it?"

"It's okay but it seems a bit fast and I think it's caused by the cables"

 

Reality check here required I think.

what do you mean?

My point is that it seems crazy to me that a hi-fi system sounds "fast" and it's because of the cables.

No doubt cables can fine tune a system (I'm have a little experiment myself at the moment) but I rather fear you just don't like the Naim sound. 

999inmydreams666 posted:

musical fidelity m6si...then a primare pre32+a32  and a rotel integrated ra1592 and finally a nait 5si but in a different session but I still don’t remember that speedin up things!

that’s why I was wandering...ok for the naim sound but the question is if it was the nordost causing this as they are usually described as fast cables!! 

Thanks for the information. I don't have experience with all the amps that you have mentioned, though in my experience most amps I have tried (about half a dozen) sounded slow when compared to the Naim. In my case it's not the Supernait 2 but 202/200 and 282/250DR.

I briefly read about the rise times of Naim amps brought up by someone here (who cited Julian Vereker). The perception of speed or quicker pace with the Supernait 2 may be correlated to the ADSR envelope where the four parameters that make up the contour will greatly influence the way musical instruments (re)produce sound. The attack time, decay time, sustain level and release time. Naim amps may sound unique (I will refrain from using the terms PRaT because some members here think it's gibberish) as the attack and/or decay time are made shorter, though I have no idea how the amps could technically accomplish that as synthesizers are usually used to control the ADSR parameters.

The Strat (Fender) posted:

999inmydreams666 posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Go into work on Monday morning:

"good morning - nice weekend"

"yes thanks - got my new hi-fi"

"good is it?"

"It's okay but it seems a bit fast and I think it's caused by the cables"

 

Reality check here required I think.

what do you mean?

My point is that it seems crazy to me that a hi-fi system sounds "fast" and it's because of the cables.

No doubt cables can fine tune a system (I'm have a little experiment myself at the moment) but I rather fear you just don't like the Naim sound. 

I was wondering cause nordost in particulare have this characteristic exasperated like some user said before....that's why was asking....is it the naim by itself already...is it the cables....or is naim+  cables?

999inmydreams666 posted:

TOBYJUG posted:

Unlike other cables that use more heavy wound copper,  Nordost cables usually don't carry any excess weight or meat to the sound. Some find them too dry and bright for their taste. This often can seem like they are " fast" as they can skip through rhythms and texture that other types of designs might wade through.

Although this isn't the preserve of just Nordost. Others that take a slimline thin conductor with minimal contact design give a lighter fleet of foot presentation. And of course those cables that does everything you'd want it to do.

ok thank you for this! so summing everything up...other options are naca5 or telluriumQ. am I takin the risk that the tellurium does the same as nordost considering its design? 

Unfortunately this logic follows the Doctrine of Signatures.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Doctrine_of_signatures

ryder. posted:

999inmydreams666 posted:

musical fidelity m6si...then a primare pre32+a32  and a rotel integrated ra1592 and finally a nait 5si but in a different session but I still don’t remember that speedin up things!

that’s why I was wandering...ok for the naim sound but the question is if it was the nordost causing this as they are usually described as fast cables!! 

Thanks for the information. I don't have experience with all the amps that you have mentioned, though in my experience most amps I have tried (about half a dozen) sounded slow when compared to the Naim. In my case it's not the Supernait 2 but 202/200 and 282/250DR.

I briefly read about the rise times of Naim amps brought up by someone here (who cited Julian Vereker). The perception of speed or quicker pace with the Supernait 2 may be correlated to the ADSR envelope where the four parameters that make up the contour will greatly influence the way musical instruments (re)produce sound. The attack time, decay time, sustain level and release time. Naim amps may sound unique (I will refrain from using the terms PRaT because some members here think it's gibberish) as the attack and/or decay time are made shorter, though I have no idea how the amps could technically accomplish that as synthesizers are usually used to control the ADSR parameters.

It's about the rise time of transients, not the ADSR envelope.  Most specifically it's about slew rate and current rise times.

NFG posted:

Hi & Welcome, "I've just got a SN2 and it's perfect but..."

Well you have to give it a little time to run in first, which if its like my 202/200 took a few months. The 'fast' effect as you describe it is part of the sound of Naim amps, I recall Julian telling me Naim used transistors with a very quick rise time to achieve this but that was a long time ago.

I'm fairly certain the NAC5 will be  abetter match cable wise, however it could be your room acoustics being on the bright side, which is a guess, what type of music, source & speakers do you have? just my thoughts.

I am glad you posted this. If that's true, that may have shed some light on this PRAT thing which some might have difficulty deciphering. So it's the transistors that give this quick rise time, which is essentially a shorter attack time, the time it takes for a note to go from silent to full volume. This shorter attack time may have contributed to the "fast effect", the pace that most people have experienced with Naim amps.

Apart from this quick rise time with "special transistors", are there any other special attributes of Naim amps that Julian shared with you? Does anybody know what transistors Naim use in the "golden" era? As far as I know the current DR amps use the NA 009 transistors which sound quite special.

Drink six pints of 6-7% real ale and you wont care how fast it sounds.

Huge posted:

It's about the rise time of transients, not the ADSR envelope.  Most specifically it's about slew rate and current rise times.

Thanks for the response. I am not familiar with the ADSR envelope but after reading up a bit on the topic I find a slight correlation between the graph and the way sound is produced by an instrument. Yes, I can now see it is mostly the attack  or rise time that contributes to the uniqueness of the "Naim sound". The initial stage when an instrument makes a sound until it reaches full volume. Perhaps it's not so much about decay since different Naim amps have different decay characteristics. Initially I suspected the decay time was also cut short with Naim amps as some of the non-Naim amps I have owned have longer decay times that contributed to the muddiness in music.

ryder. posted:

Huge posted:

It's about the rise time of transients, not the ADSR envelope.  Most specifically it's about slew rate and current rise times.

Thanks for the response. I am not familiar with the ADSR envelope but after reading up a bit on the topic I find a slight correlation between the graph and the way sound is produced by an instrument. Yes, I can now see it is mostly the attack  or rise time that contributes to the uniqueness of the "Naim sound". The initial stage when an instrument makes a sound until it reaches full volume. Perhaps it's not so much about decay since different Naim amps have different decay characteristics. Initially I suspected the decay time was also cut short with Naim amps as some of the non-Naim amps I have owned have longer decay times that contributed to the muddiness in music.

In my amp design experience that analysis isn't correct - it has nothing to do with the envelop (ADSR) of any individual note
As I said, "Most specifically it's about slew rate and current rise times."

And I thought it was about the music.....