UBER

Did someone dial a mobster?

TOBYJUG posted:

But if I can save some ££s and some time, then it's a good thing - yes ??

It depends... if their business model relies on exploiting their drivers, avoids taxes and ignores regulations which cost them money then no.  (I’m not explicitly making a judgement in that here, just that’s the claim). 

I expect that Uber and TFL will come to an understanding in the mid-term.

Uber is better, faster and cheaper than any local taxi in my US experience.    Losing them here would be a travesty that would not stand for long.

One thing I have never understood about Uber is how it manages to circumvent the regulations that apply to licensed taxis. It seems that Uber's business model is to disrupt the market by obviating the need for the taxi plate that licensed taxi drivers need to operate. Eliminate that expense and undercutting the licensed taxi drivers is a piece of cake.

My satirical novel chronicling the rise and most gratifying fall of that dickwad Travis Kalanick, will be about a transport startup (yes, Uber's business really is transport and it's and not a platform) called "Hubris".

A close friend of ours drives a black cab in London and to be able to drive that cab he spent a good few years in low paid  jobs driving around London in all weathers on a moped learning the Knowledge much akin to what a great many of you did to earn your degrees I would imagine minus the grants or the student loans.

He did this for the betterment of his young family and to able to part own his own home.  Now would those of you who did degrees or apprenticeships spending a few years being skint and working hard not feel a bit aggrieved if someone was then able to turn and do your job and take your job away without that any of that hardship.  

I'm not sure of the validity of the claims of so many sexual assaults and robberies by uber drivers both here in London and the U.S but if even half are real claims that alone is quite a concern.

Now of course there should be competition in all walks of life but make it equal in the above terms.                                                                                                                  

I can't use Uber - it requires a smartphone. I've used a taxi maybe two or three times in the past 20 years so have no need for Uber. Still, I'm very glad Uber is a viable choice. My kids use Uber routinely when out on the town with friends. By their accounts Uber is a safe, reliable, and relatively inexpensive choice to get them home safely. Much better than having to rely on a "designated driver" or decide who is in "the best shape" to drive home after a night out. Folks in the US don't often have late-night public transportation options, especially outside of major cities, and Uber fills the void.

Bob the Builder posted:

Now would those of you who did degrees or apprenticeships spending a few years being skint and working hard not feel a bit aggrieved if someone was then able to turn and do your job and take your job away without that any of that hardship.  

It's driving a car and there's GPS for mapping routes, so it's hard for me to find any rite of passage involved in taxiing. I don't see how that compares to occupations requiring a degree or an apprenticeship. Menial jobs don't offer much security, especially where long-term experience bears little value. Many bank tellers have been replaced by electronic payment and ATMs, and who grieves for them?

joerand posted:

Bob the Builder posted:

Now would those of you who did degrees or apprenticeships spending a few years being skint and working hard not feel a bit aggrieved if someone was then able to turn and do your job and take your job away without that any of that hardship.  

It's driving a car and there's GPS for mapping routes, so it's hard for me to find any rite of passage involved in taxiing. I don't see how that compares to occupations requiring a degree or an apprenticeship. Menial jobs don't offer much security, especially where long-term experience bears little value. Many bank tellers have been replaced by electronic payment and ATMs, and who grieves for them?

Let me educate you joerand here in London our black cab drivers have to take a test called 'The Knowledge' where they have to memorise 25,000 street names and recall mentally the best route and alternative route (due to accidents or road closures) between anyone of those 25,000 streets.

It is considered to be the most difficult test in the world by a long shot that takes years to study for and if you are in any doubt please google 'How hard is the London Knowledge'  and you will find an excellent article by your very own New York Times that describes this most eloquently.

The close friend I have who studied for that most difficult test in the world did so whilst bringing up a young family whilst working two jobs one in construction the other as a delivery driver. The study for this most difficult test in the world involves endless hours of travel around London in rain, sun and snow mapping the tens of thousands of possible routes. My close friend actually started this on a moped (a small motor scooter) and once when that broke down did it on roller skates which in my book is a bit harder than sitting in a warm classroom or lecture hall for 3 years.

I don't know what I find more annoying your willingness to make a sweeping and damning statement without actually knowing anything about what you are saying or your willingness to describe people who work in the service industry i.e.. taxi drivers or bank tellers as having a menial job undeserving of job security

While The Knowledge is clearly hugely demanding, the question that occurs to me is whether it is still as relevant in a world where sat navs exist. That said, sat navs do not have the ability to respond instantly where there are blockages in the same way that a knowledge equipped human can. 

The main issue around Uber seems to be around drivers’ remuneration and employment rights, and ensuring the safely of passengers. 

I have a PhD, which was hard work for three years. It’s utterly different from the knowledge and not remotely comparable. What I do know is that the ability to navigate around the streets of London is a lot more useful than a knowledge of the impact of group size on fish foraging. 

Hit the nail on the head HH,  sav nav circumvents 'the knowledge' & makes it possible for both licensed taxi's & uber cars to compete with the traditional hackney cab (black cab) in London.  Same for other cities.    Its got to a time for change in how the law/purpose/rational for taxi/hackney licencing is carried through into the future.    IMO it can't not change & that includes the 'uber model' becoming the way forward.  But in the meantime Uber as a company need to accept responsibility for better & comparable regulation as the licenced cab/cars.

I feel for those black cab drivers whose livelihood is threatened by Uber, and Bob makes some good points, in particular his response to the uncalled for snipe at the so called 'menial' workers in society. However, I feel I should point out that there are many more licensed cab drivers, and drivers of private hire vehicles across the U.K., none of whom possess The Knowledge, than black cab drivers. In my previous life as a cop I was, for a time, responsible for liaising with the local authority over taxi licensing issues. I can assure you exactly the same issues as have been highlighted in the Uber dispute cropped up time and again. 

I too like the fact that my daughter, who is a London dweller, had access to safe, cheap, reliable transport late at night. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to find a balanced response to this current dispute.

Just wondering if the UBER cabs will have to comply with the new Black Cab ZEC emission  requirements that come into force on the 1st of January next year these new cabs will start at £55,000.

All new Black Cabs registered after this date will have to able to comply this should also apply to UBER vehicles as well. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

While The Knowledge is clearly hugely demanding, the question that occurs to me is whether it is still as relevant in a world where sat navs exist. That said, sat navs do not have the ability to respond instantly where there are blockages in the same way that a knowledge equipped human can. 

The main issue around Uber seems to be around drivers’ remuneration and employment rights, and ensuring the safely of passengers. 

I have a PhD, which was hard work for three years. It’s utterly different from the knowledge and not remotely comparable. What I do know is that the ability to navigate around the streets of London is a lot more useful than a knowledge of the impact of group size on fish foraging. 

HH please take a while to read the the New York Times article if you google how hard is the london knowledge it is the third option down.  Even though I knew a fair bit this article taught me more and gave a different perspective and I'm afraid I have to respectfully disagree and saw that The Knowledge is comparable and equal to your PHD and that isn't diminishing the extremely hard work you no doubt put in. The knowledge takes an average of 48 months and is considered to be as hard and equal to both a law and a medical degree.

I'm not trying to say that one is better than the other, merely that they are different and are not comparable. Both are hard, but they are different. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

I'm not trying to say that one is better than the other, merely that they are different and are not comparable. Both are hard, but they are different. 

Of course and I doubt I could apply myself to either.

Bob the Builder posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

While The Knowledge is clearly hugely demanding, the question that occurs to me is whether it is still as relevant in a world where sat navs exist. That said, sat navs do not have the ability to respond instantly where there are blockages in the same way that a knowledge equipped human can. 

The main issue around Uber seems to be around drivers’ remuneration and employment rights, and ensuring the safely of passengers. 

I have a PhD, which was hard work for three years. It’s utterly different from the knowledge and not remotely comparable. What I do know is that the ability to navigate around the streets of London is a lot more useful than a knowledge of the impact of group size on fish foraging. 

HH please take a while to read the the New York Times article if you google how hard is the london knowledge it is the third option down.  Even though I knew a fair bit this article taught me more and gave a different perspective and I'm afraid I have to respectfully disagree and saw that The Knowledge is comparable and equal to your PHD and that isn't diminishing the extremely hard work you no doubt put in. The knowledge takes an average of 48 months and is considered to be as hard and equal to both a law and a medical degree.

Bob,

I for one accept that The Knowledge is hard. The question is whether it is still important.

IME an Uber driver armed with Sat Nav will get me where I want to go just as effectively, more cheaply and more courteously than a black cab driver. At present, I'd argue that your average Uber car is less polluting than you average black cab too (I cycle a lot round London and black cabs are pretty bad offenders for dousing me in black clouds). Just listened to "More or Less" on R4 debunking the idea that Uber drivers are more likely to sexually assault passengers than other cabbies too. 

I think there are issues to sort out with Uber but mainly about they way they contract with their drivers and also perhaps predatory pricing (I've heard it said that uber pricing is so low it only makes sense if they can grow the business and replace drivers with autonomous vehicles in the future...)

But the service offered by Uber is superb IME.

Bob the Builder posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

I'm not trying to say that one is better than the other, merely that they are different and are not comparable. Both are hard, but they are different. 

Of course and I doubt I could apply myself to either.

And neither are a guarantee of a job for life. Sad though it may be, the days of the 'black cab' and The Knowledge are numbered, just as they were with type setters, compositors, insurance underwriters and many other trades where apprentices had spent years learning the dark arts. Technology is a wonderful thing, but can be a double edged sword.

Bob the Builder posted:

joerand posted:

Bob the Builder posted:

Now would those of you who did degrees or apprenticeships spending a few years being skint and working hard not feel a bit aggrieved if someone was then able to turn and do your job and take your job away without that any of that hardship.  

It's driving a car and there's GPS for mapping routes, so it's hard for me to find any rite of passage involved in taxiing. I don't see how that compares to occupations requiring a degree or an apprenticeship. Menial jobs don't offer much security, especially where long-term experience bears little value. Many bank tellers have been replaced by electronic payment and ATMs, and who grieves for them?

Let me educate you joerand here in London our black cab drivers have to take a test called 'The Knowledge' where they have to memorise 25,000 street names and recall mentally the best route and alternative route (due to accidents or road closures) between anyone of those 25,000 streets.

It is considered to be the most difficult test in the world by a long shot that takes years to study for and if you are in any doubt please google 'How hard is the London Knowledge'  and you will find an excellent article by your very own New York Times that describes this most eloquently.

The close friend I have who studied for that most difficult test in the world did so whilst bringing up a young family whilst working two jobs one in construction the other as a delivery driver. The study for this most difficult test in the world involves endless hours of travel around London in rain, sun and snow mapping the tens of thousands of possible routes. My close friend actually started this on a moped (a small motor scooter) and once when that broke down did it on roller skates which in my book is a bit harder than sitting in a warm classroom or lecture hall for 3 years.

I don't know what I find more annoying your willingness to make a sweeping and damning statement without actually knowing anything about what you are saying or your willingness to describe people who work in the service industry i.e.. taxi drivers or bank tellers as having a menial job undeserving of job security

 

By whom and according to what criteria and what other tests are considered?  Around a million people apply each year for the Indian civil service exam for around 500 vacancies.  I read the NY Times article and did not get the impression that the pass rate was that low.

Roger

As a Londoner I am disappointed about the Uber development. I hope that the powers that be get sat round the table soon and resolve the issues that TFL have with the company. Yes Uber need to work within the rules and relevant employment legislation  

The service the company provides is very good. A fantastic use of disruptive technology to make travel arrangements easier to make at very short notice. The drivers are polite, and so far I have never had a bad experience. They also provide a safe reliable option for women travelling home late at night.

technology is changing everyone's job, and none of us are immune to having our working lives disrupted. Yes I also use black cabs, but over many years of living and working in London, know from experience that there are situations and destinations where you will not find a black cab option.

Peakman posted:

By whom and according to what criteria and what other tests are considered?  Around a million people apply each year for the Indian civil service exam for around 500 vacancies.  I read the NY Times article and did not get the impression that the pass rate was that low.

Roger

What has that got to do with anything Roger the pass rate has nothing whatsoever to do with what I'm saying if a million people take an exam for only 500 jobs then of course only 500 people will get a job it means nothing.

All of you seem to have misunderstood what I have said of course black cab drivers do not deserve a monopoly because they have taken the Knowledge and in all things I believe competition is  a good thing and consumers have the right to choose whatever they consider is best for them and of course black cab drivers will have to move with the times for instance nothing is stopping them from coming together and setting up a black cab app.

My point was that you can't have a system that says you must take this exam and give up most of your time outside of your working hours for the next 3 - 4 years to gain a cab licence be strictly regulated and suffer harsh penalties if you break those regulations and then overnight let your competitors completely flood the market with drivers who have no real training are for the most part unregulated and who can circumnavigate any penalty for wrong doing and who are prepared to undercut, undercut and undercut again it isn't fair and it isn't right and it waters down quality of service.

A similar thing happened in the building industry a few years back the industry was flooded with very cheap unlicensed, unregulated labour yes they were cheap and yes they were plentiful but I can tell you from experience of being paid many, many, many times to put right the mistakes made by these 'cheap' builders that cheap isn't always best and for every happy customer there are more who wished they had paid a little extra and got a properly trained tradesman in to do the job.  The bigger problem is that because these cheap builders pushed the price of labour down no new trainees came into the industry because of the lower rates of pay and the argument that there no apprenticeships doesn't hold water if you are a young person and you want to learn a trade you can so now we are in the posistion that in a few years we will have no properly trained trades men and women and the same will be true of cab drivers.

Bob the Builder posted:

Let me educate you joerand here in London our black cab drivers have to take a test called 'The Knowledge' .....

..... I don't know what I find more annoying your willingness to make a sweeping and damning statement without actually knowing anything about what you are saying or your willingness to describe people who work in the service industry i.e.. taxi drivers or bank tellers as having a menial job undeserving of job security

I'll leave you to decide which you find more annoying Bob, call me a cynic, but the fact remains that some jobs, not limited to the service industry, are menial (i.e., don't require particular knowledge, skills, or abilities the common person does not possess). While The Knowledge might have value in London, could the same driver navigate successfully in Washington D.C.? Certainly, with aid of GPS guidance. Could a taxi driver from Washington D.C. navigate successfully in London? Certainly, with aid of GPS guidance. Uber is proving that anyone with a car and smartphone can now do the same. Real knowledge means possessing skills and abilities that are transferable, and allow for adaptability.

Telegraphists, more of a technical job, were replaced by the telephone. Automobile painters in factories, more of a skilled job, were replaced by robots that actually did a better and more consistent job of applying the paint. Accountants, with pertinent knowledge of regulations and laws, were replaced by bookkeeping and tax software. Even the work of well-educated engineers has been replaced by computer aided design. On and on.

So a guy that drives folks from point A to point B having his monopoly on doing so busted by the smartphone doesn't rate high on my pity list, especially when The Knowledge seems now obsolete. While it was once useful to memorize 25,000 street names and alternate routes, it seems that has become trivial knowledge. The slide rule and sextant were once very valuable instruments, but it's rare to find a person that relies on either one anymore.

Your friend may have been better served spending three or four years gaining knowledge on how to do technical repairs on the cars the Ubers are driving. Then again, should a massive solar flare ever knock out the global positioning or cell phone systems, your friend could instantly regain marketable knowledge.

Thus speaks the voice of pure, unalloyed capitalism.