Naim Torque

Very kind Darren - Thank you. We'll be able to pick up another phone call from each other ........ eventually. It's great to be able to share our collective knowledge and experiences hereabouts. We love those free upgrade tweaks!

This thread is proof that getting it right with attention to set-up and detail can absolutely transform the performance of a system. DB has imparted many a good suggestion to me, which I have implemented to positive effect. He recently suggested a small positional adjustment of one of my new Kudos 707's which worked a treat.

Ownership of Naim equipment since 1982 has made me many good and lasting friendships.

John.

Methodical application of unrelenting logic - how I wish I had been gifted with this skill set!!

DB would appear to have a similar approach to that of Peter Swain.

This thread is a great reminder that it’s coming near (over)time that I had someone visit.  Fascinating about the 500ps - I hadn’t realised that could make a difference.

As for Dustysox I suspect the biggest dilemma outstanding is how much you are prepared to let the 552 go for....!

Great thread folks.

Peter

When I bought my Supernait (1), the sales guy at the (good) dealer said that I had to connect the speakercables diagonally to my speaker connections. I asked him why. He said that I could try all options and decide myself.

I think that the magic of Naim is in these kind of tweaks.

northpole posted:

Methodical application of unrelenting logic - how I wish I had been gifted with this skill set!!

DB would appear to have a similar approach to that of Peter Swain.

 

Great thread folks.

Peter

'Methodical application of unrelenting logic' - or maul for short. But that's what Bears do best.

Maybe DB can maul my system one day. 

Richard Dane posted:

But first priority is to finish filling the barn with wood for the winter. So chainsaw strip down comes first...

Chainsaws are the closest many come to handling a shotgun/boomerang combination and accidents are best avoided rather than mitigated. I'd rather chainsaw in a thong and sandals (properly trained) than wing it in ballistic pants and a ice hockey mask. Others, passing by, might disagree. Adam 'No Toes' Leatherface. also - Health & Safety gone sane

Nice to know someone reads my posts but - hyperbole, Richard, hyperbole. 

Thanks A - a lovely bit of recall.  Yes, re-reading and "chainsaw strip down" does rather sound like a bizarre back-woods party game or perhaps a cross-genre under the counter flick.

And I'd just got over the nightmare image Max posted on the thread earlier...

How did we get here?  Apologies DB, back to your thread...

Is this kind of 'service' offered by anyone on a commercial basis? (Not suggesting that DB should, although it sounds like he'd have plenty of takers!)

I ask this because I don't have a proper dealer relationship (not since Derek W's days in Loughborough) - or at least not one where I could expect a dealer to make the kind of visit DB made above.

I'd have thought there'd be a reasonable demand for such a service (assuming it was someone with a reputation for doing it well). How much would people pay? I haven't really thought about it, but possibly as much as £500 (and even that might be considered cheap).

Oh, and any chance of a photo, Dusty?

Gavin, there are dealers around who will go to such lengths.  You just need to ask them and come to an arrangement. 

Gavin, you really don't want a photo of me...surely...!

I will sort out one...when I can suss out the way of uploading pics!!!!

Very interesting thread. A couple of quesions if I may:

• Does having the 500PS on the bottom shelf of the brawn stack and 500 amp on the second shelf on the brain stack mean the burndies are clear of the floor or do you require a certain distance between the racks to achieve this?
• Where abouts was the 552 pre-amp in the set up?
• If for example you had an LP12 and radical power supply in the set up, where would these items be sited?
• If you had to site an LP12 and a cd player (both on the top level of the stacks), is there a recommendation whether the LP 12 should sit atop the brain or the brawn stack?

And we have not even got into the hornets nest topic of cable dressing and mains plug ordering.

Thank you for your help.

I site an LP12 and a CD player, so my layout might be of interest - though I have the luxury of three Fraim stacks. I've tried some chopping and changing and this is what works best for me in terms of best sonic results.

Left            Middle            Right

LP12           552               CD555

Radikal      500                Empty

Empty       555PS            500PS

                                         552PS

John.

So you could move your 500PS to the bottom level and be impressed by the boost in sound quality.

Must confess I think it is odd that big improvements in sound quality can be obtained by the order of power supplies in a stack. Is it documented in manuals? Many people must be using their kit in a non-optimised way and missing out.

"So you could move your 500PS to the bottom level and be impressed by the boost in sound quality".

I've tried it and preferred the configuration as I have it. But ............... it's all about my personal taste; room and loudspeaker matching.

To quote The Ozark Mountain Daredevils - 'It'll Shine When it Shines'. One simply has to experiment.

John.

I meant to add that perhaps it's a case (in my case) of cable dressing being more optimal in my chosen configuration (with the 500 hawsers lifted off the floor), and that's more important than box placement?

John.

J.N. posted:

I site an LP12 and a CD player, so my layout might be of interest - though I have the luxury of three Fraim stacks. I've tried some chopping and changing and this is what works best for me in terms of best sonic results.

Left            Middle            Right

LP12           552               CD555

Radikal      500                Empty

Empty       555PS            500PS

                                         552PS

 

John.

 

been to John's and his system sounded mighty fine then -- i think the configuration hasn't changed since then, but John will correct me if i am wrong...

enjoy

ken

Thanks Ken. That is so. Just a loudspeaker change since you were here. 

John. 

At last..a picture!!!

So, we can see the NDS on top of the "brawn" rack. Then in the middle the 552 and then the 500 with a space below.

On the top of the "brawn" rack is the 555PS Digital, and then 555PS analogue for the NDS. Then another shelf space  with the 552 PS in the middle with 500 PS at the bottom. I have a "wonky" Fraim at the moment and waiting on a delivery of the medium height parts to bring the "brawn" side up to the same height as the " brain". As DB correctly pointed out it keeps the OCD police (wife!!) happy.

If you can spare the time/energy and strength it will be a  good work out and save on gym membership shifting back boxes about!!

But please read Dark Bears OP as he has made some very important points which will all make a massive contribution to your listening pleasure.

Ghettoyout posted:

..Must confess I think it is odd that big improvements in sound quality can be obtained by the order of power supplies in a stack. Is it documented in manuals? Many people must be using their kit in a non-optimised way and missing out.

No it is not in the Manuals, but I learned the 'Brawn-Brain' split from one of the head guys at Naim who used to give a talk at Naim demo events he set-up to explain why it was important. Then when I once visited Naim HQ for a demo of Active S800 the then head of Naim walked in and insisted we stop and re-configure the stacks as the 552 Pre was not in the right place for optimal results, so it was moved.

Naim know about all this but there are many people that get offended when it is suggested it might make any difference, so I think they just delegate that to the Dealers to install a system config the customer is happy with to save lots of 'why' questions - then everyone is happy!

Yes - many are missing out, but if they are otherwise content and enjoying their music and system then it does not matter. I posted as this was someone on the edge of selling everything and very unhappy. Now he is happy and amazed and it didn't really cost anything other than a few hours effort. But generally you don't do this rebuild that often so it is well worth it to get everything singing right.

DB.

I'm certainly in the camp that stacking order makes a difference and am not offended by it. More disappointed that this expensive kit is so sensitive to placement and it's something of a black art to perfect.

Tell me Mr. Bear, where would you place sources such as an LP 12 and CDS3? Does the LP12 go on the brain or brawn stack (there is no wall mounted shelf option here)? Similarly with the radical power supply. I've got this on the brawn side of things. And I assume the brawn stack is the right hand stack as you look from the front. I've got a total of four power supplies (500, 552, CDS3 and radical plus a blank shelf). Based on your experience, what order would you put those in?

I think your wisdom needs to be documented somewhere on this site!

In fact the more expensive kit is even more sensitive as it reveals everything and hides nothing!
This is where I've more clearly heard exactly what is happening and learned what works and what does not.

LP12 contains a very sensitive cartridge source so should not be near any transformers, so keep it as far away on 'brain' stack top or preferably a wall shelf when an option.

The 'noisy' supplies are the ones drawing large dynamic current (500PS) and Digital or switch-mode supplies (the one your CDS3 is using and the Radical)
As always it is experimental but guided by the above, for Brawn stack: 500PS on lowest shelf, then a gap of some kind, then 552PS, then a gap or use a medium shelf above the 552, then the CDS3 supply, then Radical on top is where I'd begin.
If the 552PS can get some space from the 500PS and the other supplies it sound a lot better - clearer and better definition.

Arrange so that cable-dressing is assisted and all wiring is free and not in a dense mess will give best results.

DB.

I concur Gary. LP12s, in my experience, sound best on a good wallshelf; perched on top of a Fraim does them no favours. Radikals are electrically noisy beasts, and if you can keep them away from other kit you'll be doing yourself a favour. Mine sits on the top of a short Fraim stack with an empty shelf beneath.

Thank you for your advice. I'm currently not too far away from what you suggest Mr. Bear. Just need to swap the 500PS with the 555PS and put the empty shelf above the 500PS. I'll give it a go.

How noisy is an NDS when not playing? I don’t have one yet but it is the next planned upgrade (along with DRin the 555ps. The choice is between the  NDS or 500 directly under the superline, the latter means I can move the 500 ps lower without the Burndys on the floor but if the NDS is dormant digitally when not in use it may make a better neighbour for the superline but not if it continually chatters with the network.

Yeti, I wouldn't have anything digital directly above or below the Superline.  Same goes for the pre-amp. I found that putting a CD player or streamer on a shelf either directly above or below the 552 compromised overall performance.  Similarly the Superline is very sensitive to digital and power supplies. You would need the space of at least a medium height shelf or an empty regular shelf.  In my own setup the NAC552 head unit and Superline have their own stack of Fraim, separated by a medium height shelf.