Naim Torque

I used to use a medium shelf above my 552 Head unit to space it to the 555 on top and that worked very well - it also sounded good when I tried an NDS on that shelf. The 552 Head unit needs some space from the other boxes to perform at its best, so preferably never sandwich it in-between other boxes on standard fraim levels if possible.

At the level of 552-500 equipment it really must be on two Fraim stacks to perform right and not waste the investment, so I presume you are using two stacks?
The 500 Head unit directly under the superline as long as there is space and it (the superline) is on a tall level should work well, as the 500 head units are fairly inert masses and I use a whole stack of them preferentially under my 'floaty-snaxo' as it sounded better for that little box to be in a high mass fraim stack away from transformers and digital boxes, so the superline should similarly benefit I'd thing - but you have to try it to find out.

The 500 Head units stack well with other sensitive boxes as they are relatively inert in a positive way - it is the 500PS boxes which are definitely not inert and will wantonly interact with everything near them, which is why I think Naim provided a long power cable to place them preferably elsewhere for best perfomance.

DB.

This is my left-most stack, of 3 in total.

Top to bottom: NAC552, Superline, NAT01 headunit, Geddon, NAT01PST, Supercap (for Superline). i assume i'm OK s i have a tall'ish shelf between the geddon+other power supplies and the sensitive stuff  above? 

enjoy

ken

I can't see any problem with it Ken. The main thing is if you are enjoying music through your system. The set-up suggestions are really for those that are not happy with the performance considering the outlay they have made - and to say there may be something to be done about it that does not cost any money, just some time.

The Naim guys were very keen on separation of brain and brawn also due to vibration of the transformer being injected into the stack they are in. Personally I've found much more impact is the proximity of transformers to other equipment via their magnetic fields - I discovered this in my own system and subsequently verified it in several other forum members systems to their satisfaction, so it is not peculiar to me.

The vibration thing is an obvious one, as the whole philosophy and design of the fraim speaks to this, as well as the decoupling plugs and floating-pins on interconnects, so Naim obviously feel it worthwhile disrupting that mechanical connection to their equipment.

Probably the Transformer stuff being in another fraim would sound even better, but there are only a finite number of stacks I can fit in any room!
I used to have five and I had to sell one when I got the S1 Pre as I had no space along the wall, even though I know that if I put the pair of bass 500PS to the right of my 500 Head unit stack isolated on their own stack it is far better sounding - but I can't fit it all in, so have instead used spacers between the supplies to give me nearly the same result. I still want to move the 500PS Bass supplies away from being stacked with the others, but can't see how I can fit it into my room.

You have to fit the stuff in your room!

DB.

I used to run a CDX2 (from a 555ps in a brawn stack) on the top of the brain stack with a 282 below and prefered this to the other way round. When I changed to a 552 I left this order in place. There was a 250-2 at the bottom of the brawn stack at the time. A year later I got a 16 year old 500, put the ps where the 250 had been and the head unit at the bottom of the brain. This put the 500 Burndys on the floor. Though the 500 improved some aspects of the sound I was a little underwhelmed but I was waiting for a service and DR slot for it and put the dissapointment down to its age. When it went off for the work I put the 250 at the bottom of the brain stack to avoid having to move the speaker cables, the boogie came back that I’d lost with the 500. When the 500 returned it went back where it had been but the loss of boogie was again apparent and didn’t improve appreciably with time. When I feel something is wrong it gets me thinking about the system so 1st idea was to move the 500ps up the brawn stack to get the Burndys off the floor. This helped but not enough. The 500ps was now higher than the 552 head in the adjacent stack. I remembered a comment about the 552 being happier at the top, it couldn’t go there because of a turntable but it could go up 1 shelf to just below it. This did the trick and I finally got to enjoy the system again and hear what the 500DR fuss was all anout.

Magnetic influence from the 500ps is also my explaination for the difference.

Refelecting again on Mr. DB post i was wandering whether it was not a better compromise for me, (albeit not ideal)  to move the 500ps on the far right stack placing it on the bottom shelf of the Fraim, leaving  the extended level empty and placing the 500 head atop of it.

Now the middle brawn stack is top to bottom 

555 analogue

555 digital

552 ps

500 ps

Doing so,  would have more space between 552 ps and 555 ps or between 555 ps analogue & digital

Kind Regarsds

Where you have things right now is good for cable-management. The 500 Head unit likes to not be on the lowest shelf so works well where you have it, but will also work well higher. The 500PS does work on the lowest base-level shelf well, so good to let it keep that position; these do work well higher up but need space and the lowest shelf has free space below it.

I'd not touch the source left-hand stack as that configuration works very well - try an empty un-loaded glass shelf on the bottom some time to see if you prefer what that does.

As an experiment to show what is available - beware it will break the symmetry you have - try just shuffling-up the stack of supplies above the existing 500PS where it is right now. Try moving the tall level over to above the 500PS then stacking the boxes as you have them now - and use the now spare standard level as a spacer above the 552PS.

Ergonomically it may look not as good but listen to what it does, then you will at least know whet your system is capable of and if it is worth the effort. Re-stacking the shelves takes a few minutes, so it can be put back in reasonable time.
You should find the bass far leaner and more powerful with better timing and better detail throughout.

DB.

Wow, on the sideline, absorbing all types of information. Nice to know, remodeling and painting my Living room. 

Just checking, isn't it of importance, to separate, and distance the digital interconnects from the analog interconnects if possible!

Cable Dressing!

Thanks In Advance! 

Allante93!

PS. When one is at there end game System, Naim Torque, and Cable Dressing is a

No-Brainer!

Cdx2>282>HCDR>3 x 250.2> Fraimlite

Passive Tri-Amped Briks

Imgur? Haven't figured it out yet! 

Hi DB,

Thank you for your tips, i' ll experiment these with the next forthcoming Fraim cleaning and re torquing.

For S. Lumina Interconnect i did this looping arrangement to avoid floor touching. James of Tom Tom looking the picture told me that it should be fine

Regards

Roberto

The loose looping of the SL cables works as the superior solution to letting touch the floor. Also good to prevent them touching the metal part of the fraim shelf uprights if possible. The wooden part of fraim is not so bad as sometimes it has to touch somewhere, but avoiding floor or any metallic resonant surface contact is worthwhile and easy audible at this level of kit - and I'd say you would hear it in any Naim system, it is just more objectionable the more revealing the system is.

Again - all this is if one is interested in trying it or seeing if more is available from our systems. If people are very happy with the results they are already getting and don't want the bother I'd say stay where you are and just enjoy it as it is.
Once you reach the right install that delivers what you want and music is enchanting and engrossing you then really you are there.

DB.

So how does one manage the SL speaker cables? I have a full loom. No issues with the DIN to DINS  and the DIN to XLRs but my speaker cable runs along a solid oak floor. Please don’t tell me I need to suspend or levitate these in some way? Divorce will be on the cards otherwise!

Skyhooks!

Talking of levitation; seen the Mag-Lev turntable folks? The platter wobbles and the arm is rigidly mounted to the plinth. Hilarious.

It's probably sell well to the 'ain't that cool' brigade. Click on 'Mag-Lev' above in case the hyperlink isn't obvious.

John.

J.N. posted:

Skyhooks!

Talking of levitation; seen the Mag-Lev turntable folks? The platter wobbles and the arm is rigidly mounted to the plinth. Hilarious.

It's probably sell well to the 'ain't that cool' brigade. Click on 'Mag-Lev' above in case the hyperlink isn't obvious.

John.

When they start coming on the 2nd hand market, I’ll be tempted to pick one up as a kinetic sculpture, it’s quite pretty. As a turntable it doesn’t seem to have any good design ideas at all. (Doesn’t the maglev interfere with the cartridge, quite apart from the mechanical issues?) 

Ravenswood10 posted:

So how does one manage the SL speaker cables? ...my speaker cable runs along a solid oak floor. Please don’t tell me I need to suspend or levitate these in some way?

The SL speaker cables are designed differently and if you look at them, they have a soft sheath unlike the other interconnects, so they handle running on the floor better - as you might expect, it was in the original design.

They do in fact sound better when off the floor as much as possible, but it is not a huge impact to the music as much as with the low-level interconnects.
I suspend mine under my floor as it makes them invisible in the room and also means the contact points are every couple of feet apart through loose loops holding them.

Otherwise just run them a little apart from each other for best results where they need to run together. Isolating them from the floor gives a lighter faster sound, but I'd not say it ruins the performance not doing that. There are domestic facts of life, even for me, that mean you make some compromises, but once you have done enough set-up tweaks you lift the system performance to a level where it just sounds great and you then put away getting the ultimate performance and find you just want to play music - that is when I stop.

DB.

Ravenswood10 posted:

So how does one manage the SL speaker cables? I have a full loom. No issues with the DIN to DINS  and the DIN to XLRs but my speaker cable runs along a solid oak floor. Please don’t tell me I need to suspend or levitate these in some way? Divorce will be on the cards otherwise!

Foam pipe insulation is your friend. I have my 1.5m SL DIN/XLR off the floor by looping it through 2cm lengths of the stuff which cost me 99p. Try it. If you can't tell the difference in SQ or the wife starts to consult a lawyer, chuck the offending foam pipe insulation in the bin. Marriage secured and only out of pocket by 99p. I, however, benefit from a dedicated listening room so there is no real impact on domestic harmony.

One piece of advice. Do this experiment while alone as the men in white coats might be alerted!

My din to XLR is only 1m long, with a knot tied in it to keep it off the floor. The speaker wires sit on the carpet, with one going through a plastic conduit behind the fireplace. They seem fine. 

My system was sounding a bit off tonight so I was preparing to do a complete rebuild, however I noticed a fly had landed on a corner of the Fraim thus upsetting the equilibrium. A quick flick displaced the miscreant and order was restored.

Jonn posted:

My system was sounding a bit off tonight so I was preparing to do a complete rebuild, however I noticed a fly had landed on a corner of the Fraim thus upsetting the equilibrium. A quick flick displaced the miscreant and order was restored.

I find some insects crawling on the Fraim can actually enhance SQ. It is well worth experimenting by capturing and releasing various insects onto ones hifi and listening intently for the resultant change in SQ.

I am only going to consider reading responses from those who have taken the time to try this out. OK!

nigelb posted:

Ravenswood10 posted:

So how does one manage the SL speaker cables? I have a full loom. No issues with the DIN to DINS  and the DIN to XLRs but my speaker cable runs along a solid oak floor. Please don’t tell me I need to suspend or levitate these in some way? Divorce will be on the cards otherwise!

Foam pipe insulation is your friend. I have my 1.5m SL DIN/XLR off the floor by looping it through 2cm lengths of the stuff which cost me 99p. Try it. If you can't tell the difference in SQ or the wife starts to consult a lawyer, chuck the offending foam pipe insulation in the bin. Marriage secured and only out of pocket by 99p. I, however, benefit from a dedicated listening room so there is no real impact on domestic harmony.

One piece of advice. Do this experiment while alone as the men in white coats might be alerted!

Why waste all that money when you can drill a little hole in the floor and rest the cable on a nice soft bed of insulation that's already there!

Still a work in progress as I move the system into a different room, but burying the cables under the floorboards was essential to avoid them running in front of a doorway. First impressions are that it all works rather well.

Hope there's no hungry mice down there!!!

Peter

Darke Bear posted:

In fact the more expensive kit is even more sensitive as it reveals everything and hides nothing!
This is where I've more clearly heard exactly what is happening and learned what works and what does not.

LP12 contains a very sensitive cartridge source so should not be near any transformers, so keep it as far away on 'brain' stack top or preferably a wall shelf when an option.

The 'noisy' supplies are the ones drawing large dynamic current (500PS) and Digital or switch-mode supplies (the one your CDS3 is using and the Radical)
As always it is experimental but guided by the above, for Brawn stack: 500PS on lowest shelf, then a gap of some kind, then 552PS, then a gap or use a medium shelf above the 552, then the CDS3 supply, then Radical on top is where I'd begin.
If the 552PS can get some space from the 500PS and the other supplies it sound a lot better - clearer and better definition.

Arrange so that cable-dressing is assisted and all wiring is free and not in a dense mess will give best results.

DB.

I’m recovering from a prostatectomy and banned from heavy lifting so my dealer spent the morning rearranging the racks to give extra space round the three power supplies on the bottom right. We also moved the nDAC above the 282 on the left.

We played Yellow Brick Road ( Funeral for a Friend), a notoriously testing double LP, and the changes recommended By Darke Bear on this thread 3-4 weeks ago do work. The SuperCap DR really benefits from not being close to the 300 DR PS at the bottom. Did the XPS DR for the nDAC as well using an empty shelf. Much more excitement etc in the sound which is very alive. Playing Madonna’s Ray of Light CD which has lots of interesting sound effects and same kind of improvement is noticeable. Probably double noticeable as the nDAC is getting an uplift as well. Didn’t cost a penny and must be as good as adding a 555DR PS to the nDAC.

Phil

Good it delivered for you and was free, apart from effort.

The usual benefit I've noticed is created is greater overall clarity of the presentation in all respects, including timing, fine detail and more bass power, as if before the notes were spread-out and now more focused.

As to why, I'm guessing it is the magnetic fields from the transformers interacting with the other boxes as that correlates with the results obtained, but there may be more going on too, and I'm sure there actually is.

In any case the solution is more space around and between boxes where that is possible.

DB.

Darke Bear posted:

Good it delivered for you and was free, apart from effort.

The usual benefit I've noticed is created is greater overall clarity of the presentation in all respects, including timing, fine detail and more bass power, as if before the notes were spread-out and now more focused.

As to why, I'm guessing it is the magnetic fields from the transformers interacting with the other boxes as that correlates with the results obtained, but there may be more going on too, and I'm sure there actually is.

In any case the solution is more space around and between boxes where that is possible.

DB.

DB Your descriptions of the improvements are good. Piano is sounding particularly good delivering the power and sound that is characteristic.

According Maxwell’s law of electromagnetism the magnetic field is confined to within the toroid. I doubt whether the metal the wires are wound round can acquire a permanent magnetic field in the presence of an alternating current. This just leaves the wiring leaving the transformer etc., the rectifying circuit, and the capacitors. The power amp currents are quite high and therefore wires should not be ignored particularly the longer ones running parallel to other long wires. An inverse of distance relationships with large currents at short distances between long parallel wires can have a significant effect, hence more distance between boxes helps. Inverse square of distance only applies to point sources.

I’m very pleased with the results. Thank you DB.

My dealer would like me to try his nearly new 252. Not sure how much better my system can get although I note all that is said about the 552. I’m sure if you don’t get the setup right that many feel the 552 works wonders. I think the 250 I had before was less sensitive/ less likely to interact with other power supplies. Now I feel the SQ has recovered some of what I lost moving to the 300 with all the many benefits of the 300 added. I demoed the 300 without putting it in the rack - a mistake.

Phil