I am glad...

Steve, before things really kick off on this thread I would be mindful of that first sentence - quite a lot of countries have their share of 'gun-crazed lunatics', even here in the UK. It's not something that's exclusive to the US.

p.s. I've just heard on R4 the recording of the concert, machine gunfire, and the sound of the crowd realising they were being shot at - horrible. My heart goes out to all who were affected by this senseless act.

I think this is one subject which unites people on both sides of the political spectrum in the UK. This is one area where we in the UK have got the law right, and I would be extremely surprised if anyone on this forum from the UK would even think about arguing in favour of loosening legislation relating to guns and knives.

I remember when I visited the US for the first time in the early 90s and popped into a local Walmart to buy some groceries for the week, I was astonished to see a large counter with guns (some of which looked to me to be Military style semi automatic weapons) and ammunition openly for sale. However, I think we have to remember that not everyone in the States is in favour of the right to bear arms. I know quite a few Americans, and they all claim to have never owned, nor ever had the desire to own a gun. Unfortunately , there is a very vocal and powerful gun lobby that refuses to concede an inch when it comes to the question of gun control. Although I would never hunt, and don't understand how anyone could gain enjoyment from shooting animals, I do accept that there are people who use guns 'responsibly'. I also get the fact that acts of the type carried out in Las Vegas today are relatively rare and carried out by a very few deranged individuals. However, if strict controls were in place barring the sale or ownership of automatic or semi-automatic weapons at the very least, then in would be much more difficult for these crazed individuals to kill or maim quite so many people. As far as I am concerned, there can be no argument at all in favour of the right to bear arms of this type, and I question the sanity of anyone who is in favour.

Focus today should be on helping those affected by this awful tragedy, but could I ask those who are in favour of retaining the right to bear arms - do you feel that this right should extend to all types of weaponry such as semi-automatic and automatic assault rifles? Should there be no limit at all? 

You may trust yourself or your close friends with weapons of this sort, but do you trust the slightly cookie individual in the next street whom you do not know, but who for all you know may be an avid legal collector of deadly assault weapons. 

As Richard points out, the USA doesn't have a monopoly on lunatics with guns.

I live less than 10 miles from Hungerford. And over the past 20 years have spent a week or so most years at the Dunblane Hydro.

Last year, in Canada, two of our friends didn't turn up for dinner one evening as planned. After a couple of unanswered phone calls, my daughter and myself popped over to their place to check all was well. They weren't at home but their gun safe was open, with rifles on the floor, ammunition in open boxes around the room, and assault rifles plus pistols there for the taking - they had decided to go hunting for a few days and had forgotten about their dinner-date. But to leave more weapons and ammunition lying around than the average UK county police force has access to, is nothing short of lunacy.

What i'm getting at is that you don't have to look too far to find lunatics with guns.

But I fully accept that this senseless act of mayhem is in a different league, and my thoughts and condolences are with those thousands of people who are affected, either directly or indirectly by this act.

Paper Plane posted:

...that I don't live in a country of gun-crazed lunatics with short tempers

...or one where the authorites seem hell bent on re-living the glory days of Franco's past.

Before anyone else bumps their gums in respect of gun crazed deranged lunatic US of A, it may pay them to scan the table at the end of this link. It would certainly appear safer to live in the States than in Russia, South Africa, Brazil, Jamaica, Pakistan......the list is long.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik...tional_homicide_rate

Like others, I'm mightily pleased to live in a country with strong limitations and controls over the availability of firearms.  That said I acknowledge that other countries and cultures have a more relaxed attitude to guns. Like HMack, I also remember being pretty surprised at the guns on display in Walmart when I first visited the USA.  What I just don't understand is the justification for allowing members of the public to buy and keep assault rifles.  Pistols, maybe, shotguns and sporting rifles, ok. But assault rifles? Yes, every country has its lunatics but the damage they can do with a pistol, sporting rifle etc before the authorities can step in surely wouldn't amount to  58 dead and nearly times ten injured!  

Just to make it clear. The first sentence of my OP does not name any country in particular; however the rest of the post does refer to the USA.

steve

What a sad place this has become.  "I am glad..." ?

I have never seen such a large and growing selfish, self-centred group of people on this earth as I have witnessed lately.  So long as you are OK you couldn't give two hoots about your neighbor?

Many people have died today and many more injured.  Yet, the political opportunists pop up like nasty weeds with their wisdom.  If a trip to Walmart is what you base your thesis on then you pass and get your participation trophy.  Did you wait for Hillary to post the same and then follow like lemmings do?  Have you no heart or soul?

What is even more appalling is that with a great number of tragedies as of late not one word of sympathy from anyone on this UK centric - anti-American and dominated forum (that I have seen).  Just noting a few, I am speaking of three massive hurricanes that recently levelled, devastated or flooded states and islands, earthquakes in Mexico and other worldwide events of note.  It is tragic and horrific what many have gone through, if they survived.

I won't even bother listing any of the problems the UK lives with (and accepts) as they obviously have none - as continually proven by the pundits here.

The only acceptable thing that should ever be said here is to offer prayers and condolences to those affected.  I guess common sense is not that common these days anymore.

Many of us don't go in for public weeping and wailing in front of an audience highly unlikely to have been personally affected by this human tragedy. My prayers and condolences will go to those who need them, not to righteously indignant proselytising individuals who sit in judgement and condemn without a shred of evidence or justification.

It is indeed an awful tragedy and my heart goes out to the victims and their families and friends, but this is not a natural tragedy (as Florestan mention the three recent hurricanes). While such incidents of individuals having a lunatic episode might not be reduced, it seems to me that the scale of the havoc and slaughter that they wreak could be reduced by tighter gun control. That is within the gift of the US government (federal and state).

Florestan posted:

Yet, the political opportunists pop up like nasty weeds with their wisdom..........

What is even more appalling is that with a great number of tragedies as of late not one word of sympathy from anyone on this UK centric - anti-American and dominated forum (that I have seen).  Just noting a few, I am speaking of three massive hurricanes that recently levelled, devastated or flooded states and islands, earthquakes in Mexico and other worldwide events of note.  It is tragic and horrific what many have gone through, if they survived.

What utter rubbish you write. You obviously read and hear exactly what you want to hear. The sympathy of all of us is with those who have been directly affected by this tragedy. You are obviously completely blinkered by your ridiculous assertion that most of us who contribute to this forum are "Anti-American". You also obviously did not fully read my post when I stated that "Focus today should be on helping those affected by this awful tragedy".

I have visited the United States (by choice) over 20 times in the past 25 years on vacation and to visit American friends, and will continue to do so. I certainly do not choose to do this because I am anti-American. I have also personally visited many of the countries in the Caribbean (including the US Virgin Isles, St Marten, Turks & Caicos Islands, Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic and Trinidad & Tobago) and was utterly horrified by the impact of recent storms on these lovely Islands and the livelihoods of the people who live there. How dare you imply that I, or any others on this forum feel otherwise.

I  live not too far away from Dunblane (in Scotland), where some 20 to 25 years ago a crazed gunman entered a school and shot and killed many very young school children, so I know full well that events of this sort can occur anywhere in the world. However, our Government reacted to this event by tightened existing gun control law significantly in order to attempt to prevent an act of this sort occurring again.

Contrary to your assertion, I do not consider the question of control of the sale of semi-automatic and automatic to be 'political' in any respect at all. Neither is my assertion that it is lunacy to allow the free distribution of these types of weapon with little to be related directly to the right of US citizens to bear arms. It is simply a matter of common sense and humanity, nothing more, and if you choose to read more into this then I question your motive. Tell me, are you in favour of the open sale of automatic and semi-automatic assault rifles?

I contend that you are the political opportunist on this thread. 

Florestan,

Steve has raised a valid issue and most of us have expressed our condolences to those affected.

I haven't detected any anti-American sentiment within this thread so far. Anti lunatics? Yes ! A concern that powerful weapons are widely and easily available in the USA - yes!

Perhaps you could raise awareness of future disasters in North America ? Much easier than complaining that others haven't done so.

Nothing makes me "glad" about this. I take some minor consolation from the ongoing truth that if an American doesn't own a gun, doesn't have guns in their house, doesn't hang out with people who own guns, doesn't hunt, doesn't engage in violent crime and and is not a gang member, then it continues to be vanishingly unlikely that they will be shot.

Florestan posted:

What a sad place this has become.  "I am glad..." ?

I have never seen such a large and growing selfish, self-centred group of people on this earth as I have witnessed lately.  So long as you are OK you couldn't give two hoots about your neighbor?

Many people have died today and many more injured.  Yet, the political opportunists pop up like nasty weeds with their wisdom.  If a trip to Walmart is what you base your thesis on then you pass and get your participation trophy.  Did you wait for Hillary to post the same and then follow like lemmings do?  Have you no heart or soul?

What is even more appalling is that with a great number of tragedies as of late not one word of sympathy from anyone on this UK centric - anti-American and dominated forum (that I have seen).  Just noting a few, I am speaking of three massive hurricanes that recently levelled, devastated or flooded states and islands, earthquakes in Mexico and other worldwide events of note.  It is tragic and horrific what many have gone through, if they survived.

I won't even bother listing any of the problems the UK lives with (and accepts) as they obviously have none - as continually proven by the pundits here.

The only acceptable thing that should ever be said here is to offer prayers and condolences to those affected.  I guess common sense is not that common these days anymore.

This forum is UK based forum populated in the most part by people from the UK the subject of which is a hifi manufacturer from the UK so by it's nature it is of course UK centric.  Since you bring up politics yes there are lots on this forum that disagree with your present president and his supporters but that does not make them anti - American any more than your fellow countrymen who also disagree with their president and his followers it just makes them and us anti Trump.

 Please enlighten us with all that you have done for the recent natural tragedies perhaps you can lead the way and show us what we should have done because all though I have not taken the time to come on this or any forum to let everyone know what a good person I am by saying how deeply affected I am because that is not the British way but I have as I'm sure have many others on this UK centric forum actually put my hand in my pocket instead.

On the subject of gun laws I ask: it right that any human being should own a weapon designed and manufactured for the express purpose of killing other human beings? (That is the only function of a machine gun.) 

i say no, and to me there can be no moral basis for argument to the contrary. (Note: I referred to personal ownership not military or law enforcement use, which is an entirely different subject.) 

Innocent Bystander posted:

---

On the subject of gun laws I ask: it right that any human being should own a weapon designed and manufactured for the express purpose of killing other human beings? (That is the only function of a machine gun.) 

i say no, and to me there can be no moral basis for argument to the contrary. (Note: I referred to personal ownership not military or law enforcement use, which is an entirely different subject.) 

The issue is that in American culture is that the most passionate of the gun owners consider themselves potentially as "military" and/or "law enforcement" in a very real sense. They believe that the citizens must be prepared to step into these roles as the government/establishment can't be trusted. It's wild-west, everyone-for-themselves mentality that has no real parallel in developed society elsewhere in the developed world.

http://www.canberratimes.com.a...20171003-gyt7ys.html

Total Australian Firearms deaths (excluding self-harm) for all of 2016.....

American Firearms Deaths (excluding self-harm) so far in 2017(with 3 months to go) in the US...

This is pretty shocking. Take into account that the population of the US is about 12-15 time the Australian population doesn't change the message much. It remains that the frequency rate (per 100,000 people) for gun homicides for the US is 20 times the Australian rate.

Just so that I fit in with the British way I would like to know what this thread is about?

Is it about gun control?
Is it just an opportunistic way to console yourselves with anti-American sentiments (we British are so much more evolved and don't have any problems in our country)?
Is it about the tragedy that occurred in Las Vegas yesterday?

Sadly, although only implied the point was not about the tragedy itself.  My reading of the original post left me with little doubt that it is aimed at the first two points.  No real reference to the event itself was given.  In my non-British ways, I simply am baffled how people take a tragedy to spout off about gun control.  This is inappropriate to use this event nearly hours after and that isn't even sorted out yet to deflect away from what the victims and their families. 

Strangely, I do recall getting many lectures here after recent British tragedies where I was told things like these things are so statistically inconsequential.  It is more likely that you get killed in a car crash etc.  When I referred to the causal nature (radical islamic terrorism) others would say this is in my head - it doesn't exist.  This was a lone wolf - a crazed person.  Where are these same people now being consistent?  No longer is this about a crazed person but guns are the issue.

So these British crazed persons used knives, bombs, vehicles.  This crazed American used guns.  Is there a difference in any form of evil depending on the weapon?  My point is only that in either case evil is evil and this is what the focus should be on.

From the original post:

I am so glad...that I don't live in a country of gun-crazed lunatics with short tempers.

Again, the implication is clear that the country referenced is USA.  I would call this anti-American and ridiculous to imply that all Americans are lunatics.  I am sure Britain has its share of lunatics as well?

The reason I brought up the other recent natural disasters is for the same reason that I thought it odd that no one would bring up such notable tragedies?  These are historical events.  If these events happened in the UK would you all still say intelligent things like: 

Many of us don't go in for public weeping and wailing in front of an audience highly unlikely to have been personally affected by this human tragedy. My prayers and condolences will go to those who need them, not to righteously indignant proselytising individuals who sit in judgement and condemn without a shred of evidence or justification.

No, probably not.  It is anti-Americanism, in this case, when you use an argument one way to suit yourselves and change your tune when the circumstances would be reversed.

Am I the first American to respond here? I don't view the US as a gun-crazed nation; rather, a nation with some gun-crazed extremists. Like any nation, there are some lunatics in the mix. The constitutional right to bear arms amended in 1791 had merit coming from the perspective of the Revolutionary War, onward to "settling the West", and has remained intact since, with a multitude of legislation on what can be sold, where, to whom, etc.

The bottom line is that despite any amount of legislation, so many firearms now exist in the US that anyone wanting to get their hands on any number or type can, often illegally. This is an unfortunate situation and no amount of succeeding regulations will change the fact that criminals and lunatics have easy access to firearms in the US. There's no realistic means to eliminate the cumulative arsenal of arms, bullets, shells, and powder. Likewise, there's no realistic means to identify potential mass-shooters and prevent their access to illegal possession of arms.

Practical solutions from anyone, whether from another culture or nationality, are more than welcome, and I'm all for it. Even better, tell us how to enact your solution into US law.

joerand posted:

Am I the first American to respond here? I don't view the US as a gun-crazed nation; rather, a nation with some gun-crazed extremists. Like any nation, there are some lunatics in the mix. The constitutional right to bear arms amended in 1791 had merit coming from the perspective of the Revolutionary War, onward to "settling the West", and has remained intact since, with a multitude of legislation on what can be sold, where, to whom, etc.

The bottom line is that despite any amount of legislation, so many firearms now exist in the US that anyone wanting to get their hands on any number or type can, often illegally. This is an unfortunate situation and no amount of succeeding regulations will change the fact that criminals and lunatics have easy access to firearms in the US. There's no realistic means to eliminate the cumulative arsenal of arms, bullets, shells, and powder. Likewise, there's no realistic means to identify potential mass-shooters and prevent their access to illegal possession of arms.

Practical solutions from anyone, whether from another culture or nationality, are more than welcome, and I'm all for it. Even better, tell us how to enact your solution into US law.

You're right. There's nothing to be done. It's the price freedom, I guess. Every other developed nation, where gun homicides are far less common, is just lucky. What are the odds, eh?

Winky, that is rather dramatic, isn't it?

Maybe we shouldn't talk though about who is killing who?  Is it wrong to talk about gang violence or black on black crime?  Perhaps it is wrong to single out cities like St. Louis, Baltimore, Detroit or even Chicago where Liberal mayors let these things continue unhindered and support this lifestyle rather than confront it through law & order?

I say dramatic because you would never show a graphic of people murdered by knives, hands/feet, or clubs or hammers which far surpasses your little dramatic visual which is created by an anti-gun lobby.

Again, my only point is that guns are not the problem.  It is a people problem.  Take away guns and you still have the same issues whether you are British or American.

winkyincanada posted:

joerand posted:

Am I the first American to respond here? I don't view the US as a gun-crazed nation; rather, a nation with some gun-crazed extremists. Like any nation, there are some lunatics in the mix. The constitutional right to bear arms amended in 1791 had merit coming from the perspective of the Revolutionary War, onward to "settling the West", and has remained intact since, with a multitude of legislation on what can be sold, where, to whom, etc.

The bottom line is that despite any amount of legislation, so many firearms now exist in the US that anyone wanting to get their hands on any number or type can, often illegally. This is an unfortunate situation and no amount of succeeding regulations will change the fact that criminals and lunatics have easy access to firearms in the US. There's no realistic means to eliminate the cumulative arsenal of arms, bullets, shells, and powder. Likewise, there's no realistic means to identify potential mass-shooters and prevent their access to illegal possession of arms.

Practical solutions from anyone, whether from another culture or nationality, are more than welcome, and I'm all for it. Even better, tell us how to enact your solution into US law.

You're right. There's nothing to be done. It's the price freedom, I guess. Every other developed nation, where gun homicides are far less common, is just lucky. What are the odds, eh?

Things do not go wrong over night, it is a cumulative degradation over time. Unfortunately the more degraded something becomes the harder it is to fix it.  Legislative in years past have tinkered with the laws while trying, as much as possible, not to make major changes in the constitution (perhaps out of fear that this would denigrate those who signed it, or maybe because they felt it was sacrosanct!), much like what happened with the Koran.  However, the world moves on and legislation should move with it.  Unfortunately, there is no punishment that can be levied for unauthorized possession, resell, selling of weapons in the USA that would be palatable to the voters.  Hence, the governing bodies will not take the necessary steps because their major concern is to become elected/reelected.  It is  sad fact that as adults we are little better than children when it comes to taking something away from us, it may be bad for us, we might not even want it, but the moment you want to take it away then it is the most important thing in the world to us!

This thread was started based on the premise that the center of all evil gun toting lunatics is in the USA.  As bad as it is (one murder by any method is too many for me) perhaps the USA anti-gun/anti-American element here should put this in perspective.  Why not worry about the number of homicides per 100,000 in countries like Honduras, Venezuela, Swaziland, Jamaica, Guatemala, El Salvador, Columbia, Brazil, Panama or the Philippines?  These are the top ten worst places for homicides by guns and by a huge margin.

In a short time, you should also see US homicides by gun dropping as they no longer have a President who supplies guns to bad guys (RE: Fast and Furious Scandal).  Oh, and this was the same guy who brought up gun violence with his first words after every tragedy that happened.  

Florestan posted:

Why not worry about the number of homicides per 100,000 in countries like Honduras, Venezuela, Swaziland, Jamaica, Guatemala, El Salvador, Columbia, Brazil, Panama or the Philippines? 

Because most are content to suck down coffee from beans produced in those countries, sweeten it with their sugar, and murders there don't make world headlines.

It's very easy to point the finger at egregious atrocities, quite another issue to discuss realistic solutions. I have no answers.

The first reaction of most people will be that the shootings in the USA was a human tragedy.

Paper Plane posted:

Why the hell are people allowed to buy semi-automatic weapons over the counter like a packet of sweets? Only the military should have such arms, not civilians.

How many more massacres will there be before Americans get over their John Wayne complexes?

steve

These are the important questions.