Router choice

Conventional advice here on the forum is to put a switch between your router and, well, almost everything else. It may be a useful first step and would solve your issue re number of ethernet ports if you tried a 5- or 8-port switch.

Search the forum for posts about netgear or cisco switches.

It sounds as though you have discovery issues in the network; this is usually a problem in settings for the WAP (WiFi) section of the router.

I had problems with the early BT Home Hubs (certainly the 3 IIRC). I moaned relentlessly to BT who upgraded my HH once and replaced it on another occasion. I currently have a HH5 and it has been fine but I do have a switch between it and my UnitiServe and NDS. Might Sky do the same if you give them a hard time?

Previous suggestions re insertion of a switch and WAP settings are well worth investigating also.

Some Sky boxes have Powerline (Ethernet over mains) devices built into them. No idea if yours have, but maybe worth checking, and perhaps disabling them, in case they are interfering. 

I use an Apple Airport Extreme with my Sky router, which has proved to be very reliable, and is simple to set up. The only change I made to the Sky router was to turn off it's WiFi, and connect it to the AE with a short Ethernet cable. 

I think your dealer is right.

Like Chris Ithink you could try an Apple AirPort Extreme set up as a Wireless Access Point rather than as a router and as he says turn off your Sky wifi, although you can try it without turning off your Sky router wifi.

And I agree that putting a small switch between your router and your 272 and Core is well worth doing. Many of us use Netgear GS105 switches which cost only £20 or so and you can use cheap cat 5e ethernet cables too, to try it out. There are those on the forum who prefer Cisco switches but these are more expensive unless you buy second hand on eBay or similar. Personally I haven't bothered and I think the GS105 is fine.

best

David

I too use an Airport Extreme but with a dedicated Modem (a Draytek Vigor) with a GS105 isolating the HiFi items from the rest of the Network and it works fine.

However, and I am no expert, I am struggling to understand how this can be a WiFi problem when the OP advises that all the gear is ethernet wired.

Perhaps a few questions to the OP to clarify the issue will throw a bit more light on the problem (or my ignorance!). So:

1. When you fire up the Naim app on the iPad Pro do you see the N272 as a 'room' or is it not visible at all?

2. If you can see the N272 can you see on the App the UPNP function of the Core?

3. When you say 'going offline' do you mean the N272 or the Core?

4. Does this issue relate just to Streaming from the Internet (Tidal, Spotify etc) or your Core music 'library' as well?

5. If the N272 drops from the App what is it telling you if you look via the remote?

The app isn't wired.....

best

David

No David, I appreciate that which is why I asked the questions that I did.

It may well be something to do with the Router but the OPs original post is rather vague in some areas and I was just seeking to fully clarify the issue.

ChrisSU posted:

Some Sky boxes have Powerline (Ethernet over mains) devices built into them. No idea if yours have, but maybe worth checking, and perhaps disabling them, in case they are interfering. 

I use an Apple Airport Extreme with my Sky router, which has proved to be very reliable, and is simple to set up. The only change I made to the Sky router was to turn off it's WiFi, and connect it to the AE with a short Ethernet cable. 

I disabled the Powerline settings on my Q package as  a matter of course. It seems the engineers leave these on as a matter of course. They also don’t like setting up Ethernet, so when they left I disabled wireless and went wired. I had discovery issues with a BT HH6 (also got through 6 of them in as many months) before throwing in the towel and going for a Draytek Vigor 2860 router. Rock solid and liked it so much that I also bought their mains powered switch. A few configuration steps were required. I ordered mine from BT so it had their approved firmware preloaded. 

Ravenswood10 posted:

I had discovery issues with a BT HH6 (also got through 6 of them in as many months)

By way of contrast,  I have a BT HH6 with absolutely zero problems,  as have numbers of others in my locality & more distant friends & family elsewhere.   (in complete contrast to Ravenswood's experience)       They are the most advanced & powerful of the ISP supplied types on the market today,  & more advanced than many of the 3rd party types.  They are true plug & play & with no fancy setup features or expertise required.   They have been made deliberately fiddle proof by BT but do have a few small customer preferences to play with such as split 2.4 & 5GHz bands,  but outside that they just simply work & they work well. 

Glad that you know of positive experiences. Also interesting that the Draytek’s wireless coverage is also better than the HH6 range. When I ran into issues with the HH6 India said that they weren’t compatible with copper lines! When I got to number 5 they planned to offer me a HH4! Nope, no more HH6s in this house. Perhaps the HH6 is great if you have decent BB speeds. Still I’m promised FTTP next month.....but that’ll be through Wan 2 on the Draytek. They can chuck the HH6 back on the van

Also interesting that my two Naim dealers won’t touch Home Hubs. In fact the Draytek was a dealer recommendation - can’t say fairer than that and the proof of the pudding as they say......

....also anything not to deal with BTs awful call centres. The only time I got things moving was via their Exec Level Complaints Centre in Newcastle - and that was only after writing to BTs Chief Exec.

Mike-B posted:

Ravenswood10 posted:

I had discovery issues with a BT HH6 (also got through 6 of them in as many months)

By way of contrast,  I have a BT HH6 with absolutely zero problems,  as have numbers of others in my locality & more distant friends & family elsewhere.   (in complete contrast to Ravenswood's experience)       They are the most advanced & powerful of the ISP supplied types on the market today,  & more advanced than many of the 3rd party types.  They are true plug & play & with no fancy setup features or expertise required.   They have been made deliberately fiddle proof by BT but do have a few small customer preferences to play with such as split 2.4 & 5GHz bands,  but outside that they just simply work & they work well. 

Absolutely, if with BT, go with the latest HH6, it really is a very capable and impressive device that leaves some of the off the shelf third party consumer devices in the dust... and importantly for us here correctly handles multicast groups used for UPnP and mDNS (discovery) - and is needed with BT  for UHD/4K IPTV... and efficient operation of the Naim app....  if it didn’t your Wi-fi would come to a grinding halt..... 

Thank you all for your help.  I shall start by adding a switch and move on from there.  These advice comments can be shared with my dealer who is very bright and helpful and we will have a path to sort it out.

I did sense that the iPad talking wirelessly via a router which then talks down a wire to the Core might be a problem but I didn't understand how and I still don't but we will certainly check that.  If I do need a new router, the suggestions are very helpful.

I think the Core is a big improvement on the Unitiserve.  I like the fact that there is an on/off switch on the fascia and a loss of power will not result in the unit going back to Salisbury to be fixed.  I also like the simple back-up facility onto a solid state device which can be kept elsewhere which is a major improvement.  The display seems more sensible and some of the functions are a bit more intuitive, particularly the listing options.  It is quieter. As for the sound of music,  who can say?  I did splash out on a CDX2 which is bonkers in 2017 but I was fed up with the Unitiserve and with ripping.  I think that the stereo image was more natural with the CDX2 but I could detect no other difference when switching back and forth from the one to the other.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Mike-B posted:

Ravenswood10 posted:

I had discovery issues with a BT HH6 (also got through 6 of them in as many months)

By way of contrast,  I have a BT HH6 with absolutely zero problems,  as have numbers of others in my locality & more distant friends & family elsewhere.   (in complete contrast to Ravenswood's experience)       They are the most advanced & powerful of the ISP supplied types on the market today,  & more advanced than many of the 3rd party types.  They are true plug & play & with no fancy setup features or expertise required.   They have been made deliberately fiddle proof by BT but do have a few small customer preferences to play with such as split 2.4 & 5GHz bands,  but outside that they just simply work & they work well. 

Absolutely, if with BT, go with the latest HH6, it really is a very capable and impressive device that leaves some of the off the shelf third party consumer devices in the dust... and importantly for us here correctly handles multicast groups used for UPnP and mDNS (discovery) - and is needed with BT  for UHD/4K IPTV... and efficient operation of the Naim app....  if it didn’t your Wi-fi would come to a grinding halt..... 

Clearly not my experience then what a boring world it would be if we all agreed. From my POV the HH6 caused me more hassle than any other piece of equipment I’ve owned and I don’t think I’m alone. Good for those who’ve have positive experiences with said HH6 but for me it’s the Draytek every time. The only plus is that BT gave me a full refund and sent me a new one which is still in the cupboard. If you look at the BT forums the failure which afflicts these devices is oft called ‘the amber light of doom’. This  typically happened in the wee small hours of the morning. 

Consider yourselves fortunate if you’ve yet to experience it! If your happy with it great - but we’ve not all been as fortunate. BT must have a warehouse full of these things!

Wait a minute, what do you mean with "Unfortunately, the streamer fails to respond much of the time and even when I can get it working, it will go off-line regularly.  This does not happen with any other app or function which all work perfectly."

Are you saying that all other apps and functions installed on your iPad work as they should? And that the only issue you have is the non responsiveness of your streamer? 

If so, why do you think there's something wrong with your router? 

Yes.  The other apps all work as they should.  The only issue is the varying responsiveness of the streamer.  Sometimes there is a message that there is no internet connection but, usually, no message.  It just loses much of its display and freezes.  Sometimes I can still control the radio in the NAC-N272 FM from the app but, when there is a fault, no streamer functions ever operate.

I did not mention that, when the iPad app is failing to control the streamer, I found that switching the app off and back on again with or without switching off all the active functions on the IPad made no difference at all.  However, if I deleted the Naim app altogether then reloaded it again it worked fine for a while once I had got it to recognise my equipment without registering new equipment.  In fact, I had been advised to do just that on the grounds that Naim had improved their app several times.  Once the dealer realised that it was happening every day - sometimes several times, he knew that it was a different problem altogether.

coiledmagnet posted:

i operate the system with an IPad Pro.  Unfortunately, the streamer fails to respond much of the time and even when I can get it working, it will go off-line regularly. 

<snip>

Is that really the streamer(i.e. the 272) failing to respond or the App on the iPad failing to communicate with the streamer?
i.e. can you still control the streamer using the remote control?

coiledmagnet posted:

Yes.  The other apps all work as they should.  The only issue is the varying responsiveness of the streamer.  Sometimes there is a message that there is no internet connection but, usually, no message.  It just loses much of its display and freezes.  Sometimes I can still control the radio in the NAC-N272 FM from the app but, when there is a fault, no streamer functions ever operate.

I did not mention that, when the iPad app is failing to control the streamer, I found that switching the app off and back on again with or without switching off all the active functions on the IPad made no difference at all.  However, if I deleted the Naim app altogether then reloaded it again it worked fine for a while once I had got it to recognise my equipment without registering new equipment.  In fact, I had been advised to do just that on the grounds that Naim had improved their app several times.  Once the dealer realised that it was happening every day - sometimes several times, he knew that it was a different problem altogether.

Again is this the 272 or the app?

If it's the app getting hung up, clearing the UPnP and/or image cache can often get it to re-initialise itself much faster than a delete and reinstall.

I don't understand how it can be the app nor do I think it is a problem with the Core or the NAC-N272 although I also didn't mention that these both display separately on the opening app screen and, if one doesn't open, the other doesn't either.

The radio from the NAC only continues to be controllable via the app when the streamer stops if they both were able to be opened individually when the app was switched on but then the streamer has subsequently failed during operation.  Of course, I can also still control the radio and CD through the NAC with the remote control or manually in any event.

It seems to me that the issue must be a communication problem between the IPad and the Naim equipment and I can understand that the weakness must relate in some way to manner in which the router is operating but I can't work it out any further than that.

Using the remote control for the 272, can you reliably play files from the core after the streamer stops?
If so, the streamer hasn't stopped, the app has lost connectivity to the streamer and/or DLNA media server.

When the streamer stops, if it's partway through a play queue, does it stop; i.e. if you told it to play a whole album, does it stop partway through a track and not continue even if you press <Play> on the front panel?

Answering these will help us to identify what is actually stopping and help point to where there is a breakdown of communication.

I will check and respond.  At the moment, the app connection is working.

I have never yet tried to control the streamer with the remote control, either with the old Unitiserve or the new Core.  At the moment I can only say that a track plus the subsequent tracks on the ripped CD will continue to play to the end after the iPad connection has failed.  It seems naive but I had never thought to use the remote for that function.

coiledmagnet posted:

 

It seems to me that the issue must be a communication problem between the IPad and the Naim equipment and I can understand that the weakness must relate in some way to manner in which the router is operating but I can't work it out any further than that.

If every other app on the iPad is working without issues, there's no issue with the router. 

There is an issue with either the app or the streamer. Or both. If the app and/or streamer require specific settings in the router, then Naim should rewrite their code. 

So don't mess with the router and do not buy new network equipment. Escalate to your dealer or Naim. 

We all know that Naim still has a lot to learn in the streaming world. 

Streamz posted:

If every other app on the iPad is working without issues, there's no issue with the router.

This is not a valid assertion.

Streamz posted:

There is an issue with either the app or the streamer. Or both. If the app and/or streamer require specific settings in the router, then Naim should rewrite their code.

It's still not a valid assertion, even when repeated in a different way.

UPnP / DLNA requires certain message protocols that aren't always handled correctly by the default setting of all routers; particularly in the way they handle messages through the WAP.
Perhaps the standards organisations should redefine the standards to comply with the default settings of every router that every company has ever manufactured?

Streamz posted:

So don't mess with the router and do not buy new network equipment. Escalate to your dealer or Naim.

Well, until we've tracked down the precise settings that need to be adjusted, at least that's reasonably good advice (but, on the other hand, sometimes empirical testing is required!).

Don't make me tell you for a third time that it's not a valid assertion, or I may get snarky!

Huge, now tell me what router settings Naim advice today? Or ever has adviced? 

The answer is none, as they shouldn't. Every app maker should stay within the boundaries, because it is not possible to know on forehand what components are placed between the app and the streamer. Again, where are the Naim specific UPnP/DLNA settings?

Apparently Naim has difficulties here. On an iPad there are usually  dozens, hundreds of apps installed. Almost all communicate with the internet. Meaning wireless, using AP's, switches, routers and modems of all brands. All work, except one. 

Doesn't matter if you think I make invalid assertions. Fact is, all apps work using his router, except one. 

Now don't make me say that you have to put down your Naim glasses. Facts should be sufficient.

Btw, these issues are not unique to Naim. Use to have a T+A streamer. After an update of the firmware there were issues. T+A said nothing changed. After investigation it turned out they did have changed a protocol to  a new, uncommon version in their software. Detected not by T+A, but the JRiver guys.

Yet again it remains an invalid assertion.

So to get snarky...

I've said it thrice.
And what I tell you three time is true!

(Lewis Carroll; The Hunting of the Snark)

There are no Naim specific UPnP / DLNA specific settings in the Apps, portable devices, routers (including their WAPs) or in Naim streamers as there don't need to be.
However, within routers (including their WAPs), very often there are generic UPnP / DLNA configuration items, and these are often listed in the router/WAP's admin configuration pages under less then obvious names or with confusing descriptions.  Unless these are set correctly then some (but not necessarily all) standard DLNA systems won't behave correctly.

The fact there there may be hundreds of other applications all working correctly it totally irrelevant if they don't use the same subset of the UPnP & DLNA protocols.  The routers need to implement the complete DLNA standard, not merely the subset they expect the consumer devices to use.

This may have been the case with the T&A streamer you had, they appear to have changed it to use an less commonly used but still valid part of the DLNA protocol set.  If the rest of the system didn't correctly handle that part of the DLNA protocol set, then the fault isn't with T&A as what they did is still a valid use of DLNA.  And so it is with Naim, they are using valid DLNA protocols, it's the responsibility of those producing DLNA compatible network devices to ensure they work with all the DLNA protocol set, or they aren't truly DLNA compatible.

This was also the case with my "router": It needed two settings on a specific admin page to be set before it allowed the system to use the DLNA discovery mechanism to work reliably.  Now I've correctly configured my router, the Naim system is rock solid.  The problem I had previously wasn't Naim's fault at all; it was the fault of the default settings for the WAP device within the "router" (even though the settings weren't in the WLAN admin page!).