NDS and connecting Roon

Richieroo posted:

Hi I currently use an NDS on a 500 system ......... I have a NUC pc running Roon core ..... would it be possible to connect Roon core to a Raspberry PI endpoint and send the signal via coaxial digital  to NDS input  ..... simply using the DAC side of the NDS.....  or could I use WIFi from NUC to NDS ... directly,  NUC is not that far from NDS so signal is strong ...... any thoughts and advice.....

I am not using Roon but I think that you could easily setup a Raspberry Pi to act as a Roon endpoint and connect it to the NDS via the BNC output of an Allo DigiOne board. I am using a Raspberry Pi 3 with an Allo DigiOne board as a source for my Naim DAC and it sounds very good to me. Best, nbpf

Richieroo posted:

Hi I currently use an NDS on a 500 system ......... I have a NUC pc running Roon core ..... would it be possible to connect Roon core to a Raspberry PI endpoint and send the signal via coaxial digital  to NDS input  ..... simply using the DAC side of the NDS.....  or could I use WIFi from NUC to NDS ... directly,  NUC is not that far from NDS so signal is strong ...... any thoughts and advice.....

See also https://forums.naimaudio.com/topic/roon-with-nds. Best, nbpf

Richieroo posted:

Hi I currently use an NDS on a 500 system ......... I have a NUC pc running Roon core ..... would it be possible to connect Roon core to a Raspberry PI endpoint and send the signal via coaxial digital  to NDS input  ..... simply using the DAC side of the NDS.....  or could I use WIFi from NUC to NDS ... directly,  NUC is not that far from NDS so signal is strong ...... any thoughts and advice.....

Richieroo, I am using a a device called Sonore Upnp bridge, which allows me to stream using Roon and NDS, over my network, which is the way it should be done. The Sonore device seems to be no longer available and I have put a question to the people at Small Greeen Computer as to whether there is an alternative, and I will let you know what they say.

I don’t know the answers to the other questions you pose, but I would not expect any wireless solution to be adequate.

Richieroo, Andrew at Small Green Computer has come back to me quickly (as always) and suggests that your best way forward is via a Sonictransporter i5 ($645 + shipping etc.), which would replace your NUC, and which supports the Sonore Upnp bridge. I believe this is your best solution. Google Small Green Computer for more details.

Regards,

David

Richieroo posted:

Hi I currently use an NDS on a 500 system ......... I have a NUC pc running Roon core ..... would it be possible to connect Roon core to a Raspberry PI endpoint and send the signal via coaxial digital  to NDS input  ..... simply using the DAC side of the NDS.....  or could I use WIFi from NUC to NDS ... directly,  NUC is not that far from NDS so signal is strong ...... any thoughts and advice.....

Yes, you need to install roon bridge on the raspberry with i.e.  a DigiOne or a HiFiBerry. 

Thanks guys .... after research .... I came to same conclusion .... I will use NUC and Digione .... I will let you know how I am getting on next month once my finances have recovered....

Richieroo posted:

Thanks guys .... after research .... I came to same conclusion .... I will use NUC and Digione .... I will let you know how I am getting on next month once my finances have recovered....

This will also give you the opportunity of comparing

NUC => LAN => NDS

to

NUC => LAN => RPi + DigiOne => SPDIF => NDS

by running a UPnP server on the NUC and a UPnP renderer like upmpdcli on the RPi. If you happen to make such a comparison, it would be great if you could post your findings! Thanks, nbpf

Why can't you stream directly from the NUC pc to the NDS via UPnP? By doing that, you can eliminate all cables, and it may sound better?

Peter Dinh posted:

Why can't you stream directly from the NUC pc to the NDS via UPnP? By doing that, you can eliminate all cables, and it may sound better?

The OP would like to replay Roon contents through his NDS. Since the NDS is not Roon-ready, he needs to connect a Roon-ready device with SPDIF output to the SPDIF input of his NDS. This way, he will bypass the streaming card of the NDS and effectively use the NDS as a pure DAC. 

Of course, in this setup, the NDS could still be connected to the LAN and process data sent by a UPnP server running on the NUC. Hence my suggestion. The comparison

NUC => LAN => NDS

vs.

NUC => LAN => RPi + DigiOne => SPDIF => NDS

would allow one to compare an integrated UPnP renderer + DAC combination (the NDS) to a solution in which the renderer runs on the RPi and generates a SPDIF stream for the DAC section of the NDS.

So, I have put some time into a Roon enabled solution alongside my NDS/UPnP server solution.

I have Roon Core running on a NUC using ROCK (Roon Optimised Core Kit), which like my Asset UPnP on Raspberry Pi 2 solution is an optimized OS for the platform (a Lean Linux), however, I didn't have to figure it out and build it. This works on the 'Server-side' of my configuration, on the same switch as the NAS units and works very well. It indexes very quickly, and maintains all the metadata for your library, and through a WinPCs & iOS devices provides Remote capabilities.
The PCs can use their internal soundcards as an Endpoints, if required.

Then feeding the NDS, I have a Sonore UPnP Bridge running on the SonicorbiterSE device (SoSE) - now this caused some problems, as it plays content upto 24/192 - its playback of DSD64 and DoP 24/176.4 and downconverted DSD64 to PCM 24/172.4 is also a bit and miss - the SoSE/Bridge can't feed the NDS buffer fast enough and the playback stream collapses. I have isolated all elements of the network and had extensive correspondence with Sonore & Roon, over this issue.

I also found that the SQ was not as good as direct UPnP input from the Asset RPi server - it lost presence, soundstage and detail. So that wasn't a long-term runner.

I have then added a USB->S/PDIF convertor using a Digital input to the NDS, so I can use the Roon Remote App and feed the NDS through a input - this restored the SQ and full playback capability - but you still have to select the input via the Naim iOS.

Anyway, that's where I am at - native RAAT support on the NDS would be great, but I doubt we are going to get that.

I also run an old RPi 1 using Squeezelite using the on-board ALSA output into powered speakers via the 3.5mm plug, for 'Tunes in the Bedroom' for morning Radio.

If the SoSE/USB->S/PDIF didn't work out, I was going to try a RPi 2/Allo Digi board into the Digital input, and run DietPi. But that effectively would be starting again.

However given that a SoSE is no-longer available, the cheapest solution to running the Sonore UPnP Bridge is on a microRendu, and this only gives a USB digital output, so you still need a USB->S/PDIF convertor, and potentially introducing additional jitter into this route.

So if you want to give Roon a go, I suggest running the Core on a NUC with Roon, or a PC and then try the RPi/Digi endpoint route.

Thanks, Simon.

simes_pep posted:

I also found that the SQ was not as good as direct UPnP input from the Asset RPi server - it lost presence, soundstage and detail. So that wasn't a long-term runner.

 

Interesting! it must be the RPi, as Asset UPnP receives high praises from users running Mac, Windows, QNAP NAS.

Let me clarify to avoid confusion.

The SQ via the Sonore UPnP Bridge running on the SOSE into the NDS was not as good as UPnP directly served by Asset running on a RPi running a lean Linux OS.

The SQ I get via Asset on the RPi is excellent as a serving solution, with great artwork support, customized icons for the folders, etc.

The problem I have is with the Naim App, as I feel that there are no development being undertaken for use with 3rd party UPnP servers, for just control. All recent development has been focused on the Uniti range, integrating the capabilities of n-Serve into a single app.

As such the UI/UX, Look & Feel has not moved forward compared to the Roon GUI.

Furthermore the metadata enrichment Roon offers is superb, plus the Radio feature, linking tracks in your local library as a genre driven stream.

However, SQ takes priority, hence the spend on a NDS & 555DR, hence the other route with the USB->S/PDIF XMOS Convertor to try and get a Roon Endpoint working for all formats & compariable SQ to the direct UPnP.

Of course, let’s hope that Naim improves the Naim app with improved UX/UI for non-Uniti Core servers.

Simon

simes_pep posted:

...

I have then added a USB->S/PDIF convertor using a Digital input to the NDS, so I can use the Roon Remote App and feed the NDS through a input - this restored the SQ and full playback capability - but you still have to select the input via the Naim iOS.

...

I think the problem is that the Naim app is not even a UPnP control point, let apart a Roon control point: it only works with Naim streamers. I use the Naim remote to select the inputs of SN2 and nDAC and Linn Kazoo or BubbleUPnP to control the UPnP renderer running on the RPi. It would be good if the Naim app would honour the UPnP and OpenHome protocols, although this would not really improve things in my case. I do not know how the Naim app will evolve but, to be honest, I do not care: BubbleUPnP and Linn Kazoo are good enough for me. With MinimServer I can organise my music collection the way I like and with BubbleUPnP I can read the booklet of the album that is currently playing on my mobile device. That's all what I need beyond the music itself, I believe. Best, nbpf

simes_pep posted:

Let me clarify to avoid confusion.

The SQ via the Sonore UPnP Bridge running on the SOSE into the NDS was not as good as UPnP directly served by Asset running on a RPi running a lean Linux OS.

The SQ I get via Asset on the RPi is excellent as a serving solution, with great artwork support, customized icons for the folders, etc.

The problem I have is with the Naim App, as I feel that there are no development being undertaken for use with 3rd party UPnP servers, for just control. All recent development has been focused on the Uniti range, integrating the capabilities of n-Serve into a single app.

As such the UI/UX, Look & Feel has not moved forward compared to the Roon GUI.

Furthermore the metadata enrichment Roon offers is superb, plus the Radio feature, linking tracks in your local library as a genre driven stream.

However, SQ takes priority, hence the spend on a NDS & 555DR, hence the other route with the USB->S/PDIF XMOS Convertor to try and get a Roon Endpoint working for all formats & compariable SQ to the direct UPnP.

Of course, let’s hope that Naim improves the Naim app with improved UX/UI for non-Uniti Core servers.

Simon

 

Simon, you are absolutely right of course, I mis-read your post.
Direct Asset UPnP stream into NDS produces the best SQ IMHO.