New speakers

SongStream posted:

I floated a similar enquiry a couple of months ago with regard to speaker recommendations, in my case looking in the GBP 2 - 3k bracket.  I took it all on board, but went out and listened to make my choice.  Nobody recommended the speakers I chose.  Based on my gripe with the speakers I had before, I was advised to steer clear of the two brands that, through listening, delivered music best for my ears.  I didn't listen to everything recommended, of course, but once I found what I was looking for, there was no real need to.  My advice would be listen to what you can, before considering a purchase of something generally well regarded.  After my little speaker journey spanning around 12 months, I'v read reviews of the speakers that I heard during that process, and the thought 'just, what are you talking about?' repeatedly echos through my mind. 

A real me too moment, more than once. Many years ago a local dealer brought in a model they didn't normally stock to demo for me, they were painstaking in set up, tape measures, spirit levels. They sounded dire with my amp, the front end was a duplicate of mine, they changed the speaker cables, still not right. I asked what they might suggest and they set up a pair of Epos ES14. We were blown away by the musicality, the holographic imaging. Sadly the bank manager didn't agree. The other speakers were award winners in more than one magazine. So we kept what we had - for thed record a pair of home built HFN/Fris Daline (this might just have a bearing on the next stage).

Various things caused me to buy a pair that were cosmetically acceptable many years later and music slid down the scale of importance. Five years ago it crept back, I had the turntable serviced, read lots of reviews and booked a demo, three pairs to trial, my turntable, my amp. The speakers were placed in a room and we were left to it. All three, highly recommended, £2500 a pair. Lifeless, unengaging, one make might have done, if we could have had a home demo. Then we heard a pair of Graham Audio LS5/9, were invited to the factory to make sure my amp would work with them. I totally accept that there is a price difference, but it didn't matter what the source was,  what genre the sound was engaging, interesting and most of all fun.

I can hear some of the comments especially "pipe and slippers", no the bass does not shake the room, nothing is "in your face", but I can listen to Gregorian chant, small choir, orchestra, reggae, electronica etc and enjoy it. I am unlikely to change again.

(One of the commednts about Dalines was LS3/5a with bass, so perhaps I was coming home).

Sorry for the ramble, but by example I am hoping to say you have to try for yourself. In 45 years with this hobby I have only found one reviewer who consistently recommends equipment and music that I enjoy.

allhifi posted:

SongStream posted:

I floated a similar enquiry a couple of months ago with regard to speaker recommendations, in my case looking in the GBP 2 - 3k bracket.  I took it all on board, but went out and listened to make my choice.  Nobody recommended the speakers I chose.  Based on my gripe with the speakers I had before, I was advised to steer clear of the two brands that, through listening, delivered music best for my ears.  I didn't listen to everything recommended, of course, but once I found what I was looking for, there was no real need to.  My advice would be listen to what you can, before considering a purchase of something generally well regarded.  After my little speaker journey spanning around 12 months, I'v read reviews of the speakers that I heard during that process, and the thought 'just, what are you talking about?' repeatedly echos through my mind. 

Interesting. And honest (regarding review comments vs. one's own experience).

There are so many variables, the most prominent is the front-end; source, pre, power, cables etc. Also, where the gear is plugged into (AC power bar, direct connection, wall receptacle(s)) or  directly to the electrical/fuse panel, and if so, what phase/leg of the circuit?

AC power conditions/quality can be a seriously compromising component.

Those in the 'know' should use a Balanced/Symmetrical AC power supply (such as Equi=tech, or similar), and, ideally, a AC power re-generator (for source components). You really have never experienced digital at its best until powered via (for example) a PS Audio P-3 -or similar.

All these variables and more; rack/stand, room/loudspeaker positioning and even environmental considerations such as (and certainly not limited to) room temperature, humidity and ambient room noise/levels.

Also impacting SQ to a great degree is excellent/complimentary source/amplifier combinations.

The variables are extensive in nature, yet never mentioned or referenced in 99% of reviews -indicating lazy, indifferent and sloppy writer/reviewer's at best, incompetency at the other end.

It's time, for a real, authentically professional  Hi-Fi Audio Review mag/rag ! And I know just the guy to get it started.

pj 

All those factors can be significant to some degree or other, and many are inevitable variables between different people's listening situations even when they chooce the same equipment. 

But one fundamental thing missed in the detail: our different ears and our different ideas of what sounds 'right'. (Significant given the substantial differences in sound between different speakers even at quite exalted prices, probably no speaker achieving perfect neutrality, accuracy etc with a complete absence of character of its own.)

Morgan J posted:

up to 5k  i can spend on speakers, pre loved is not a problem.

That opens the door to some pretty good speakers, and mich more so if you buy secondhand. You just need to hear some! 

I auditioned both Neat and PMC Twenty5.23, as well as Focal Electra 1008be and ProAc D20r.  I didn't get on at all with the ProAc, I just didn't like the treble from the ribbon speaker.  I loved the focal (really fun sounding) but I couldn't have stand mounted speakers due to the dog. Choosing between the Neat and PMC was hard. Neat sounded better on rock and indie type music, whereas the PMCs were better on electronic, dance and trance. I understand the critisism that some have against the PMCs treble, but it's just not there on electronic music. In fact the precision is a bonus.  I chose the PMCs because they're better at the kind of music I listen to most. 

notnaim man posted:

SongStream posted:

I floated a similar enquiry a couple of months ago with regard to speaker recommendations, in my case looking in the GBP 2 - 3k bracket.  I took it all on board, but went out and listened to make my choice.  Nobody recommended the speakers I chose.  Based on my gripe with the speakers I had before, I was advised to steer clear of the two brands that, through listening, delivered music best for my ears.  I didn't listen to everything recommended, of course, but once I found what I was looking for, there was no real need to.  My advice would be listen to what you can, before considering a purchase of something generally well regarded.  After my little speaker journey spanning around 12 months, I'v read reviews of the speakers that I heard during that process, and the thought 'just, what are you talking about?' repeatedly echos through my mind. 

A real me too moment, more than once. Many years ago a local dealer brought in a model they didn't normally stock to demo for me, they were painstaking in set up, tape measures, spirit levels. They sounded dire with my amp, the front end was a duplicate of mine, they changed the speaker cables, still not right. I asked what they might suggest and they set up a pair of Epos ES14. We were blown away by the musicality, the holographic imaging. Sadly the bank manager didn't agree. The other speakers were award winners in more than one magazine. So we kept what we had - for thed record a pair of home built HFN/Fris Daline (this might just have a bearing on the next stage).

Various things caused me to buy a pair that were cosmetically acceptable many years later and music slid down the scale of importance. Five years ago it crept back, I had the turntable serviced, read lots of reviews and booked a demo, three pairs to trial, my turntable, my amp. The speakers were placed in a room and we were left to it. All three, highly recommended, £2500 a pair. Lifeless, unengaging, one make might have done, if we could have had a home demo. Then we heard a pair of Graham Audio LS5/9, were invited to the factory to make sure my amp would work with them. I totally accept that there is a price difference, but it didn't matter what the source was,  what genre the sound was engaging, interesting and most of all fun.

I can hear some of the comments especially "pipe and slippers", no the bass does not shake the room, nothing is "in your face", but I can listen to Gregorian chant, small choir, orchestra, reggae, electronica etc and enjoy it. I am unlikely to change again.

(One of the commednts about Dalines was LS3/5a with bass, so perhaps I was coming home).

Sorry for the ramble, but by example I am hoping to say you have to try for yourself. In 45 years with this hobby I have only found one reviewer who consistently recommends equipment and music that I enjoy.

Excellent insight. For sure, magazine "reviews" are not only glaringly incomplete, but often not at all what it actually sounds like. As you (correctly) point out, terms such as 'engaging', 'enjoyable' -suggesting naturalness/realism and finesse are the descriptors most telling. (BTW, LS 5/9's are really good loudspeakers, and considering the original design/age is even more remarkable. I too had the opportunity (2005) to sell a customer's 5/9's and was struck by its insightful musicality.)

Under no circumstances (other than testing; channel orientation/phase etc.) must or should "audiophile" recordings be used when evaluating sound quality. Whatever source (and music) you routinely enjoy is what should be used for auditioning.  

It's always satisfying knowing someone has competed the (purchasing) odyssey and is thoroughly enjoying finely reproduced music.

Your comments are honest, accurate and most welcoming. Thanks for sharing.

pj 

Huge posted:

winkyincanada posted:

yeti42 posted:

True to form, not one iota of meaning is conveyed by the exploding sausage.

True to form, not one iota of meaning is conveyed by the complaint about the exploding sausage.  

There's probably not a great deal of objective, useful information conveyed by making speaker recommendations. The most meaningful, subjective information is provided by the speaker design and specifications. Beyond that it's all room, system, and listener dependent as many have stated.  On the other hand, an exploding sausage conveys two things to me; 1) it would be a mess to clean up, and 2) people have been known to be severely burned by exploding sausages. Either way, an exploding sausage is something I'd want to avoid.

The Proac D20R were dismissed above. I found them to be the best speakers I've demo'd to date and the ribbon tweeters were quite the ticket in my room. So there you go for useful speaker recommendations.

Another vote for NEAT speakers.  

"The most meaningful, subjective information is provided by the speaker design and specifications."

I see. And what would you recommend is informative -what we can gather from (what particular)- design and technical specification ?

pj 

allhifi posted:

"The most meaningful, subjective information is provided by the speaker design and specifications."

I see. And what would you recommend is informative -what we can gather from (what particular)- design and technical specification ?

pj 

How about "The most meaningful, subjective information is provided by your own ears"

Kacper posted:

Maybe Audiovector is worth it to try? 

My thoughts exactly. Great Danish (I think !) speakers with Naim.  

Wugged Woy posted:

Kacper posted:

Maybe Audiovector is worth it to try? 

My thoughts exactly. Great Danish (I think !) speakers with Naim.  

I own sr3 signature and honestly.... I really do love them. I’m more tired of sitting on my couch while listening than of he music itself

ChrisSU posted:

allhifi posted:

"The most meaningful, subjective information is provided by the speaker design and specifications."

I see. And what would you recommend is informative -what we can gather from (what particular)- design and technical specification ?

pj 

How about "The most meaningful, subjective information is provided by your own ears"

Better !

How about ... " The most meaningful information is the ear/brain" 

pj

Kacper posted:

Wugged Woy posted:

Kacper posted:

Maybe Audiovector is worth it to try? 

My thoughts exactly. Great Danish (I think !) speakers with Naim.  

I own sr3 signature and honestly.... I really do love them. I’m more tired of sitting on my couch while listening than of he music itself

Well then, how bou't UK-brand  "Q acoustics" (Concept 500). I particularly appreciate a loudspeaker design that employs "bolted-in" drivers (or similar, or better driver fastening) as openly revealed by Q's Concept 500.

In fact, a simple look at the information within the link shows critical (open, honest) design elements along with an even more telling (download) White Paper detailing essential design considerations.

I believe any loudspeaker in the near (and of course above) $4-5K BPD or USA$ price category should reveal in detail what exactly makes it a $X,XXX.XX (or $10K+) item !

'Q Acoustics' appropriately does this -a compelling & convincing  'sales pitch', so-to-speak; a exploded/cutaway view (proudly) revealing the attention to detail of their flagship product.

Visiting the Audiovector website reveals a few crucial details:

1) Much talk and product photo's within many listening environments; absolutely nothing technical. 

2) Contact information options include Facebook, and Instagram !

Sign me up -lol. 

pj

allhifi posted:

... Visiting the Audiovector website reveals a few crucial details:

1) Much talk and product photo's within many listening environments; absolutely nothing technical. 

2) Contact information options include Facebook, and Instagram !

Sign me up -lol. 

pj

There is a risk that you may be setting yourself up to be an expert, which can be a dangerous place to be on this forum.

I agree that the Audiovector website doesn't give much away but does that make them rubbish or over-hyped?

I auditioned their Si3AA against the Neat XL6 and B&W 803D2 equivalents budget-wise. The Si3AA showed the Neat and B&W a clean pair of heals to me. This was with an NDS/555, 252, 300 set of Naim electronics.

But then I ended up buying something else entirely because it worked better in our living room. So much for published specs informing us. The more I listen & learn, the more I suspect that the really important specs are never published by manufacturers.

best regards, FT

FT: You say, quote: " There is a risk that you may be setting yourself up to be an expert, which can be a dangerous place to be on this forum".

Expert? Risk? Danger? Well, if you say so. Not to be combative, but my extensive experience in the Hi-Fi  industry would certainly qualify as expertise. If this forum can be a "dangerous" place for folk as myself, it concerns me not. In fact, I expect to see/read those that consider themselves (or even are known as) experts and exchange some insightful dialog.

For me, Hi-Fi/music is a serious endeavor (and expense), and as such, If I can assist in informing (or introducing)  on matters I know well and considered vital to the faithful (if not fun) reproduction of music, I become better for the effort. It's all about resolution, finesse, transparency, accuracy; in both product knowledge/design and communication skill.     

pj

allhifi posted:

Kacper posted:

Wugged Woy posted:

Kacper posted:

Maybe Audiovector is worth it to try? 

My thoughts exactly. Great Danish (I think !) speakers with Naim.  

I own sr3 signature and honestly.... I really do love them. I’m more tired of sitting on my couch while listening than of he music itself

Well then, how bou't UK-brand  "Q acoustics" (Concept 500). I particularly appreciate a loudspeaker design that employs "bolted-in" drivers (or similar, or better driver fastening) as openly revealed by Q's Concept 500.

In fact, a simple look at the information within the link shows critical (open, honest) design elements along with an even more telling (download) White Paper detailing essential design considerations. 

I believe any loudspeaker in the near (and of course above) $4-5K BPD or USA$ price category should reveal in detail what exactly makes it a $X,XXX.XX (or $10K+) item !

'Q Acoustics' appropriately does this -a compelling & convincing  'sales pitch', so-to-speak; a exploded/cutaway view (proudly) revealing the attention to detail of their flagship product.

Visiting the Audiovector website reveals a few crucial details:

1) Much talk and product photo's within many listening environments; absolutely nothing technical. 

2) Contact information options include Facebook, and Instagram !

Sign me up -lol. 

pj

I just checked the website of q acoustics -as an extra contact information options  which they have added are: Twitter and g+ ..

allhifi posted:

Kacper posted:

Wugged Woy posted:

Kacper posted:

Maybe Audiovector is worth it to try? 

My thoughts exactly. Great Danish (I think !) speakers with Naim.  

I own sr3 signature and honestly.... I really do love them. I’m more tired of sitting on my couch while listening than of he music itself

Well then, how bou't UK-brand  "Q acoustics" (Concept 500). I particularly appreciate a loudspeaker design that employs "bolted-in" drivers (or similar, or better driver fastening) as openly revealed by Q's Concept 500.

In fact, a simple look at the information within the link shows critical (open, honest) design elements along with an even more telling (download) White Paper detailing essential design considerations. 

I believe any loudspeaker in the near (and of course above) $4-5K BPD or USA$ price category should reveal in detail what exactly makes it a $X,XXX.XX (or $10K+) item !

'Q Acoustics' appropriately does this -a compelling & convincing  'sales pitch', so-to-speak; a exploded/cutaway view (proudly) revealing the attention to detail of their flagship product.

Visiting the Audiovector website reveals a few crucial details:

1) Much talk and product photo's within many listening environments; absolutely nothing technical. 

2) Contact information options include Facebook, and Instagram !

Sign me up -lol. 

pj

Some people use their ears to judge a loudspeaker.

Hopefully guided by their brain first.

pj

Some strange things being said here!

A cutaway  view  is a pretty picture demonstrates the internal design, not build quality - and based on what I have seen over the years they do not all give you a real view, sometimes somewhat stylised (and these days with computer graphics that is easier than ever to make look real should a manufacturer want).

Technical talk is interesting for those who are interested (many buyers are not), but doesn't tell you how it sounds, and sometimes is more mumbo-jumbo than real information. On these two points, manufacturers tend not to want to give details as to how they fine-tune the design to sound how it does, compared to the myriad of other sealed box / bass reflex / transmission line / isobaric etc designs on the market.

Reviews can be good - but amongst other things you have to understand where the reviewer is coming from, his/her sound preferences - most useful, but extremely rare, are comparative reviews where you know yourself how at least one of the speakers sounds. The same applies to forum members' comments. And with the possible exception of direct comparisons, any review can only really be meaningful if you take into account the rest of the system, and the listening room used (though the latter information is rarely given) as well as the music used.

People's tastes in music, and the sound balance they like, vary, so hearing is a must to decide if you like the sound of a speaker, except where there is suggicient comparative information relative to something you know.

At the same time, less experienced people like to know what the music "should" sound like - but other than comparing with a live performance (often not feasible, or can be irrelevant as a studio and live performance can be very different), there is no reference point. So, that is where poeple ask others what speakers sound best, sometimes expecting a strong concensus - but answers are affected by the respondees' tastes, and on this Naim forum there is likely to be a strong bent towards liking the 'PRaT' to be right and maybe not being over-bothered by, say, emphasis or diminution of some parts of the frequency spectrum, while somewhere else the emphasis may be more on accuracy in respect of other aspects of the sound.

Meanwhile the listening room  can play a huge part in the sound heard - in some cases sufficiently so to make a speaker tha sounds good in one room sound awful in another, though my own experience has not echoed that: The first non-DIY speakers I had, that I chose through comparative audition sessions (listening to about a dozen different models at the same price point, in today's money about £2.5-3k, all of which sounded very different to one another and most of which I strongly disliked) sounded great when I got them home, and then in 5 different places I lived after that, and subsequently 2 other rooms I've heard them in.

Hi I.B.: I sent a reply to your comments above several days ago -I don't see it ? (Moderator's/NA?)

It was detailed, and lengthy.

In any case, I missed your assertion that , quote: " A cutaway  view  is a pretty picture demonstrates the internal design, not build quality - and based on what I have seen over the years they do not all give you a real view ...."

A contradictory statement; how can a cutaway/exploded diagram NOT reveal build quality ?

(If only 99% of the other manufacturer's could be so dishonest, we all might learn a thing or two)

  Referenced in my earlier (missing?) reply was that I agree with your comment regarding listening  room acoustics, namely: "Meanwhile the listening room  can play a huge part in the sound heard - in some cases sufficiently so to make a speaker tha sounds good in one room sound awful in another, though my own experience has not echoed that ..." 

Indeed, given appropriate ancillary's (and cabling), and understanding AC power quality's impact upon sound, a loudspeaker should have a similar "tonality". (Ensuring the loudspeaker is positioned well away from room boundaries).

pj

allhifi posted:

Hi I.B.: I sent a reply to your comments above several days ago -I don't see it ? (Moderator's/NA?)

It was detailed, and lengthy.

In any case, I missed your assertion that , quote: " A cutaway  view  is a pretty picture demonstrates the internal design, not build quality - and based on what I have seen over the years they do not all give you a real view ...."

A contradictory statement; how can a cutaway/exploded diagram NOT reveal build quality ?

(If only 99% of the other manufacturer's could be so dishonest, we all might learn a thing or two)

  Referenced in my earlier (missing?) reply was that I agree with your comment regarding listening  room acoustics, namely: "Meanwhile the listening room  can play a huge part in the sound heard - in some cases sufficiently so to make a speaker tha sounds good in one room sound awful in anorther, though my own experience has not echoed that ..." 

Indeed, given appropriate ancillary's (and cabling), and understanding AC power quality's impact upon sound, a loudspeaker should have a similar "tonality". (Ensuring the loudspeaker is positioned well away from room boundaries).

pj

 

 

 

Maybe it is semantics:

To me, "build quality" is how well something is put together: how accurate the machining, how it all joins with no leaks, how 'solid' it is, the quality of veneer and polishing or laquer finish or whatever. These are things that are very hard to assess from a single picture, even any picture, though maybe some detailed close-ups could convey something, and would have to be of a real loudspeaker not a simulation or mock-up.

A "cutaway view" on the other hand simply shows the internal layout (or part thereof). And cutaway views are rarely truly that: I do recall seeing one where it did look as if a manufacturer had literally cut thoug part of the enclosure, but by far the majority are like the one you linked: clearly a drawing, whether by hand as once was done or a computer generated image as this one. As the intend is simply to give the viewer an impression of the internals, and not to provide accurate detail for would-be cloners, I contend that it cannot be assumed that there is perfect dimensional accuracy, and panels and absorbent material and cables etc may or may not be exactly the relative thicknesses or positions that the diagam shows. And the diagram certainly gives no idea of precisely what the individual materials are. I do not see this approach as dishonesty on the part of manufacturers onless they were to claim that it is a speaker sawn in half.

As for other aspects of your response, my observations did not all relate to your postings, and we are indeed in agreement in some areas.

allhifi posted:

Kacper posted:

Wugged Woy posted:

Kacper posted:

Maybe Audiovector is worth it to try? 

My thoughts exactly. Great Danish (I think !) speakers with Naim.  

I own sr3 signature and honestly.... I really do love them. I’m more tired of sitting on my couch while listening than of he music itself

Well then, how bou't UK-brand  "Q acoustics" (Concept 500). I particularly appreciate a loudspeaker design that employs "bolted-in" drivers (or similar, or better driver fastening) as openly revealed by Q's Concept 500.

In fact, a simple look at the information within the link shows critical (open, honest) design elements along with an even more telling (download) White Paper detailing essential design considerations. 

I believe any loudspeaker in the near (and of course above) $4-5K BPD or USA$ price category should reveal in detail what exactly makes it a $X,XXX.XX (or $10K+) item !

'Q Acoustics' appropriately does this -a compelling & convincing  'sales pitch', so-to-speak; a exploded/cutaway view (proudly) revealing the attention to detail of their flagship product.

Visiting the Audiovector website reveals a few crucial details:

1) Much talk and product photo's within many listening environments; absolutely nothing technical. 

2) Contact information options include Facebook, and Instagram !

Sign me up -lol. 

pj

All the things you seem not to be able to find about audiovector is available if you look e.g. in the ddiferent reviews. But why would you take time when you  like another speaker instead? And of course the idea to listen to a speaker makes no sense when  you instead can go online and look at nice pictures and data! finally Audiovector was the Danish Naim distributor for many years. And most of the  Audiovector speakers has been designed using Naim  electronics, but of course this does not matter since there are no pictures on the net showing it.

Claus      

Guess its down to Ole K. is no genious in marketing and obviously not his employees either, proff help would benefit as with many others brands. AV had little success with the Naim agency imo it never really materialised to people and most of his dealer network knew just about nothing lacking education

I do know however Audiovector/Ole began designing speakers way back in the 70'ies, ie. AT audio and later F3, I had some of his very first ones. He used Isobariks as reference during most of decades

Claus-Thoegersen posted:

allhifi posted:

Kacper posted:

Wugged Woy posted:

Kacper posted:

Maybe Audiovector is worth it to try? 

My thoughts exactly. Great Danish (I think !) speakers with Naim.  

I own sr3 signature and honestly.... I really do love them. I’m more tired of sitting on my couch while listening than of he music itself

Well then, how bou't UK-brand  "Q acoustics" (Concept 500). I particularly appreciate a loudspeaker design that employs "bolted-in" drivers (or similar, or better driver fastening) as openly revealed by Q's Concept 500.

In fact, a simple look at the information within the link shows critical (open, honest) design elements along with an even more telling (download) White Paper detailing essential design considerations. 

I believe any loudspeaker in the near (and of course above) $4-5K BPD or USA$ price category should reveal in detail what exactly makes it a $X,XXX.XX (or $10K+) item !

'Q Acoustics' appropriately does this -a compelling & convincing  'sales pitch', so-to-speak; a exploded/cutaway view (proudly) revealing the attention to detail of their flagship product.

Visiting the Audiovector website reveals a few crucial details:

1) Much talk and product photo's within many listening environments; absolutely nothing technical. 

2) Contact information options include Facebook, and Instagram !

Sign me up -lol. 

pj

 

All the things you seem not to be able to find about audiovector is available if you look e.g. in the ddiferent reviews. But why would you take time when you  like another speaker instead? And of course the idea to listen to a speaker makes no sense when  you instead can go online and look at nice pictures and data! finally Audiovector was the Danish Naim distributor for many years. And most of the  Audiovector speakers has been designed using Naim  electronics, but of course this does not matter since there are no pictures on the net showing it.

Claus      

Hmmm. Very enlightening. Thank you Claus.

pj

Morgan J posted:

Hello! I am about to buy a N272 and a 200DR alt 250DR . Then ive had Linn earlier but want to try something new and i dont like their later equipment.

When it comes to speakers ive looked at PMC twenty5 23 and Neat sx5i. I will not be able to test before buying, Neat i can get for a good price. I have always liked Linns previous speakers like Kaber, Keltik, Isobarik, Kan, Katan and Espek. So the question is what do you think will fit me and the system best?

Kind regards Morgan

 

Hi Morgan. I've been demo-ing systems over the last few months ranging from Focal Sopra2's with 300DR and 272 down to an Atom with PMC 23s. In the end I was blown completely away by the Nova with Kef Reference 1. The Kef's for me are unbelievable delivering plenty of bass and fantastic midrange and soundstage - not saying it sounds better than the £25k system I heard as the rooms were all completely different but for £8k I thought it was AS GOOD. Deposit has been paid!! Looking forward to returning from the audio desert of the last 12 years (daughter now 12 funnily enough!)