Naim and Devialet

Hi,

We all listen differently.

Myself and a friend had a demo of Devialet (200 i think) and we both found the sound very clear and precise but ultimately neither of us felt connection to the music, lacking musicality, enjoyment.

Once we "got" devialet sound, each music sounded lifeless (we took our own CDs)

But, if to your years it sounds better, that's all that matters. I would also like to replace my N Naim boxes system by a much simpler system 

Regards

Rui

I'm running the dual mono D400 with double the power output (400wpc) and much lower noise floor than the D200 you auditioned. Also my speakers take advantage of Devi.  Speaker Active Matching technology that improves  speaker performance with deeper  bass and more fully controlled bass (from 25 to 17hz.)  All of these could account for the life I'm hearing vs. your lifeless audition. I don't doubt your impression or judgement. These things are so situational and subjective. 

mogul posted:

I'm running the dual mono D400 with double the power output (400wpc) and much lower noise floor than the D200 you auditioned. Also my speakers take advantage of Devi.  Speaker Active Matching technology that improves  speaker performance with deeper  bass and more fully controlled bass (from 25 to 17hz.)  All of these could account for the life I'm hearing vs. your lifeless audition. I don't doubt your impression or judgement. These things are so situational and subjective. 

To be honest, i think the demo was with Wilson Audio speakers that i usually don't like that much.

I just felt that Naim and Devialet had very distinct sound signature. 

Maybe one day i listen the 400 with other speakers.

Enjoy

Rui

In the long term I can't help but feel Naim are the better bet.

But then again I'm presuming the Naim I know will be around in 10 years time and treat me like they have for the last 10 years.

Undeniably attractive equipment though and obviously does sound pretty good to boot.

.sjb

Can't disagree re: Naim's long term vs Devialet with only a short term track history. But part of the reason I moved away from Naim was the cd555. While brilliant, the cd is an outdated medium and the player is (sadly) very old school.  Had I invested in a reference level DAC/streamer/ripper  instead of the 555 I might still be with them. 

I agree that the CD555 is now 'old school' as you put it. But Naim also have wonderful streamers in the NDX and NDS. I assume, as you did not answer earlier question posed by JEDT, you did not bother to try the Naim streaming options and went straight to Devialet. I know you were unhappy with the  Naim box count but wondered if there was any other reason you did not at least try the Naim streamers.

mogul posted:

Can't disagree re: Naim's long term vs Devialet with only a short term track history. But part of the reason I moved away from Naim was the cd555. While brilliant, the cd is an outdated medium and the player is (sadly) very old school.  Had I invested in a reference level DAC/streamer/ripper  instead of the 555 I might still be with them. 

Sadly very old school????????????? What is an LP12?  What about tube electronics, reel to reel tape players?  And what's so sad about it? There had to be something very special to begin with about CD replay for you to drop that kind of money on an outdated piece of old school junk.

There is something very special sonically about these "outdated" mediums. You state that the CD555 while brilliant, is an outdated medium. so what!  I have yet to hear any form of streaming that can better that CD player, or vinyl playback for that matter. It might be more impressive to show off this technology to your friends, but sonically, it falls way short !

badlands posted:

 

There is something very special sonically about these "outdated" mediums. You state that the CD555 while brilliant, is an outdated medium. so what!  I have yet to hear any form of streaming that can better that CD player, or vinyl playback for that matter. It might be more impressive to show off this technology to your friends, but sonically, it falls way short !

 

I moved on from CD555 because HUGO TT fed via USB sounded better ( an outcome I didn't want frankly).  I think you are way off the mark here. 

.sjb

I'm not surprised that my post has caused some disbelief. The comparison I'm making is not only between a cd555 and streaming, but also the pre/power amp sections of Devi and the Naim gear.  Simply put: a cd ripped using a Unitiserve, played back through the UServe to the digital input on the Devialet D400, sounds better than playing the same cd through cd555/552/300. 

Jedt/NigelB: Sorry I missed responding to your earlier post. I did try out a Superuniti and was generally dissatisfied with the power/pre sections. I was early in the streaming learning curve too and found internet radio lacking SQ and the streaming support clunky. My speakers sounded quite good but clearly were not optimized. The 400wpc  from the Devi and the Speaker Active Matching technology do. It seemed better to go to an integrated amp ( such as Devialet) with the streaming outboard so I could have superior amplification.

I have not shown all this off to others. ( It doesn't look as impressive as the Fraim racks full of black boxes. It's small and almost invisible in the room. )

Badlands: I say obsolescence "sadly" because the cd555 is brilliant but time is passing it by. 

I have experienced the ease of sticking with an "all Naim" system and it is truly rewarding. Advancements are happening at Naim but elsewhere too. Some will want to consider other options, depending on circumstances and preferences. I did and the result is also very rewarding (musically).

Halloween Man posted:

Devialet make the bold claim of having the best sound in the world. If this is true then they must be seriously good alchemists. They convert analogue audio to digital and then back again to analogue (using nothing special off the shelf AD/DAC chips) before it hits a class d amp. When using SAM processing any bit perfect digital audio will no longer be lossless. Is this really the future path to audio nirvana? I confess I have never heard a Devialet.

My brief exposure to the Devialet 400 led me to conclude their streaming is on par with brands like Naim and Linn. Peruse the "Why Naim?" tab on Naim's website and you'll find the phrase "a pure experience of music that is as close as possible to its original live source "; an equally insubstantive claim as "the best sound in the world ". All marketing parlance, but what would you expect a manufacturer to say about their products?

I believe Naim also use off the shelf DAC chips and optimize them to their products. If you're streaming a digital signal, why not introduce SAM thereby eliminating the need/cost for room treatments to fine-tune the sound to the room or user's predilections? A realistic wave of the future indeed.

The part of the equation I struggle with on Devialet's system is taking the vinyl signal, digitizing it, and reconverting it to analog. To me that defeats the purpose of spinning LPs in the first place. So for me, in all digital replay, lossless or otherwise, the Devialet makes sense. With a TT, me being an analog purist, I'd still like the option of direct analog replay via a phono amp.

mogul posted:

I'm not surprised that my post has caused some disbelief. The comparison I'm making is not only between a cd555 and streaming, but also the pre/power amp sections of Devi and the Naim gear.  Simply put: a cd ripped using a Unitiserve, played back through the UServe to the digital input on the Devialet D400, sounds better than playing the same cd through cd555/552/300. 

Mogul - I don't think it's caused disbelief. You like what the Devialet does compared to your Naim kit. Nothing wrong with that.  Saying your new kit, whatever flavour (seen it with Linn, Vitus etc etc) is better than the Naim kit is bound to rustle a few leaves 

badlands posted:

mogul posted:

Can't disagree re: Naim's long term vs Devialet with only a short term track history. But part of the reason I moved away from Naim was the cd555. While brilliant, the cd is an outdated medium and the player is (sadly) very old school.  Had I invested in a reference level DAC/streamer/ripper  instead of the 555 I might still be with them. 

Sadly very old school????????????? What is an LP12?  What about tube electronics, reel to reel tape players?  And what's so sad about it? There had to be something very special to begin with about CD replay for you to drop that kind of money on an outdated piece of old school junk.

There is something very special sonically about these "outdated" mediums. You state that the CD555 while brilliant, is an outdated medium. so what!  I have yet to hear any form of streaming that can better that CD player, or vinyl playback for that matter. It might be more impressive to show off this technology to your friends, but sonically, it falls way short !

 

we like old school......

joerand posted:

The part of the equation I struggle with on Devialet's system is taking the vinyl signal, digitizing it, and reconverting it to analog. To me that defeats the purpose of spinning LPs in the first place. So for me, in all digital replay, lossless or otherwise, the Devialet makes sense. With a TT, me being an analog purist, I'd still like the option of direct analog replay via a phono amp.

According to my understanding of the HiFi News review that's exactly what my new Naim Nova does. As I posted elsewhere, my Linn LP12 based vinyl playing has never sounded better. It does seem counter intuitive to me and I would have had doubts had I known about this before purchase (I only demmed with streamed files) but I am very happy with it now. I guess we are all interested in what's inside the box but if it works this well...

mogul posted:

 

Jedt/NigelB: Sorry I missed responding to your earlier post. I did try out a Superuniti and was generally dissatisfied with the power/pre sections. I was early in the streaming learning curve too and found internet radio lacking SQ and the streaming support clunky. My speakers sounded quite good but clearly were not optimized. The 400wpc  from the Devi and the Speaker Active Matching technology do. It seemed better to go to an integrated amp ( such as Devialet) with the streaming outboard so I could have superior amplification.

 

Well I wasn't suggesting a SU could  compete with either of your systems! I was thinking it would have been interesting to compare NDS or NDX into your Naim amps vs your current system

Pev posted:

joerand posted:

The part of the equation I struggle with on Devialet's system is taking the vinyl signal, digitizing it, and reconverting it to analog. To me that defeats the purpose of spinning LPs in the first place. So for me, in all digital replay, lossless or otherwise, the Devialet makes sense. With a TT, me being an analog purist, I'd still like the option of direct analog replay via a phono amp.

According to my understanding of the HiFi News review that's exactly what my new Naim Nova does. As I posted elsewhere, my Linn LP12 based vinyl playing has never sounded better. It does seem counter intuitive to me and I would have had doubts had I known about this before purchase (I only demmed with streamed files) but I am very happy with it now. I guess we are all interested in what's inside the box but if it works this well...

I not an expert, but IIUC the main problem with getting digital to sound right is that ideally the DAC's filters should mirror those of the ADC, which doesnt happen with disparate recording studios or digital mastering facilities and domestic hifi DACs. But when the ADC and DAC are provided by the same manufacturer, it becomes possible, so there is a much better chance of the conversion to digital and back to analog being undetectable. This is true also with products like DSP processors used as active crossovers for loudspeakers. It is also the thinking behind Chord's development of Davina, an ADC to match the Dave DAC, though that is in a rather different class to the DSP examples.

On that basis, it is not surprising that the Devialet and Nova approach to analog inputs does actually work effectively.

Halloween Man posted:

Devialet make the bold claim of having the best sound in the world. If this is true then they must be seriously good alchemists. They convert analogue audio to digital and then back again to analogue (using nothing special off the shelf AD/DAC chips) before it hits a class d amp. When using SAM processing any bit perfect digital audio will no longer be lossless. Is this really the future path to audio nirvana? I confess I have never heard a Devialet.

naim audio claims the same and it is even written on the packages »world class sound ».....

Rui Marques posted:

Hi,

We all listen differently.

Myself and a friend had a demo of Devialet (200 i think) and we both found the sound very clear and precise but ultimately neither of us felt connection to the music, lacking musicality, enjoyment.

Once we "got" devialet sound, each music sounded lifeless (we took our own CDs)

But, if to your years it sounds better, that's all that matters. I would also like to replace my N Naim boxes system by a much simpler system 

Regards

Rui

i found the same, i didn’t remember which devialet it was( 180 or 200). Clean, detailed sound, not agressive , good bass and soundstaging.....but lacking the urgency, weight and tension of naim sound.  But aesthetically it is very nice, nice remote too, only one box.... very tempting but i was disappointed by what i heard. It reminded me accuphase or esoteric sound.

Rui Marques posted:

Hi,

We all listen differently.

Myself and a friend had a demo of Devialet (200 i think) and we both found the sound very clear and precise but ultimately neither of us felt connection to the music, lacking musicality, enjoyment.

Once we "got" devialet sound, each music sounded lifeless (we took our own CDs)

But, if to your years it sounds better, that's all that matters. I would also like to replace my N Naim boxes system by a much simpler system 

Regards

Rui

same impression of the sound: clear, precise, detailed, good bass and soundstage....but no urgency, tension, weight of naim sound: a little boring, like accuphase, esoteric, ch precision or goldmund.

but very nice aesthetics and no 36 boxes as naim....

badlands posted:

mogul posted:

Can't disagree re: Naim's long term vs Devialet with only a short term track history. But part of the reason I moved away from Naim was the cd555. While brilliant, the cd is an outdated medium and the player is (sadly) very old school.  Had I invested in a reference level DAC/streamer/ripper  instead of the 555 I might still be with them. 

Sadly very old school????????????? What is an LP12?  What about tube electronics, reel to reel tape players?  And what's so sad about it? There had to be something very special to begin with about CD replay for you to drop that kind of money on an outdated piece of old school junk.

There is something very special sonically about these "outdated" mediums. You state that the CD555 while brilliant, is an outdated medium. so what!  I have yet to hear any form of streaming that can better that CD player, or vinyl playback for that matter. It might be more impressive to show off this technology to your friends, but sonically, it falls way short !

 

exactly, the cd555 is very very close to the nds, better on some areas and not on other( details and soundstage), so not outdated at all. It is just more convenient to use a streamer with a tablet or ipad.....

As for ultimate sound quality, reel to reel and the best turntables are even better....

French Rooster posted:

Rui Marques posted:

Hi,

We all listen differently.

Myself and a friend had a demo of Devialet (200 i think) and we both found the sound very clear and precise but ultimately neither of us felt connection to the music, lacking musicality, enjoyment.

Once we "got" devialet sound, each music sounded lifeless (we took our own CDs)

But, if to your years it sounds better, that's all that matters. I would also like to replace my N Naim boxes system by a much simpler system 

Regards

Rui

same impression of the sound: clear, precise, detailed, good bass and soundstage....but no urgency, tension, weight of naim sound: a little boring, like accuphase, esoteric, ch precision or goldmund.

but very nice aesthetics and no 36 boxes as naim....

Although I do not have experience with the Devialet, I share the same impression on the "Naim sound" when comparison was made to other non-Naim makes. In summary, the non-Naim amps sound clean and a little flat in comparison, uninspiring although few may sound more detailed, refined etc. The urgency and weight that you mention are the macrodynamics or transient in music that leaps out more from a silent background. There are others who find the urgency of the Naim to be a negative trait though as they prefer a more relaxed, refined and sophisticated albeit boring presentation.

Aethetics-wise I prefer the looks of the Naim. I wouldn't want to comment on the looks of the Devialet or pass any negative remarks about it as I understand some folks find it appealing in both sound and looks.

French Rooster posted:

Halloween Man posted:

Devialet make the bold claim of having the best sound in the world. If this is true then they must be seriously good alchemists. They convert analogue audio to digital and then back again to analogue (using nothing special off the shelf AD/DAC chips) before it hits a class d amp. When using SAM processing any bit perfect digital audio will no longer be lossless. Is this really the future path to audio nirvana? I confess I have never heard a Devialet.

naim audio claims the same and it is even written on the packages »world class sound ».....

Saying it is world class is very different to saying it is the best in the world, that is some claim

Halloween Man posted:

Saying it is world class is very different to saying it is the best in the world, that is some claim

Damn those marketing people !

james n posted:

Halloween Man posted:

Saying it is world class is very different to saying it is the best in the world, that is some claim

Damn those marketing people !

But to the marketing people it may be the best in the world, so a truthful statement (?!)

Can't blame the marketing bods for hyperbole and, well let's be generous and say exaggeration. That is what they are paid to do. There are advertising standards and laws to protect us consumers from being lied to and misled. We of course can use our own judgment and experience to challenge the veracity of extreme claims.

Hi Mogul,

I always thought your Naim kit sounded absolutely superb. I know I only heard it on a couple of occasions and you were on the "upgrade path" at the time, but you had made wise choices and the systems delivered a wonderful experience.

I for one, do not doubt your description of the improvement that you have experienced with Devialet ! I moved on from Naim power amps many, many years ago with no regrets whatsoever. I might be tempted to listen to Devialets given your post here. I wish I had had time in August/September to get in touch, but the extended family and business in Vancouver swallowed up all of my time !!

I think that your Verity Parsival speakers have a lot to answer for ! (in a nice way). They obviously suit the Devialets just as beautifully as they enhanced your Naim equipment. I think they are a well-kept secret !

Have you listened to Linda Ronstadt's Winter Light CD through the new setup ? You might be surprised at the detail in A River For Him and Winter Light that Naim was unable to reveal.

Great to know that you are still enjoying more and more music from your hifi.

Cheers

Don