Please Naim make a Class A amplifier

I quite liked the idea of a differetial output stage feeding a transformer, class A without the high primary currant of a single ended design. I’ve never heard one but I think Vacuum State came up with something like it using 300Bs. Costly mind but less than a 500. They would need sympathetic speakers which probably doesn’t include anything ending in BL.

A class A amplifier working at reduced current in the output structure is class A/B!

Wow, enough from Naim disciples. Since no one in this forum seem aware of the brands of far superior quality which run solid state Class A, let alone understand the real benefits of it's sound. Since I mentioned this issue, it as usual has warmed up the attitudes of you usual smart alecs.  I have been all too honest and forgiving in the past, no more. This forum is run by a team of ëxpert" owners whom have opinions on every topic, as though they are the gatekeepers of all thinks electronic and naim. If Naim think Class A is all heat sinks, I refer their engineers to Boulder Audio USA, let alone all the other top shelf brands which CAN do it, all without huge heatsinks and NO transformer hum. Use your own ears, have a listen to horn speakers NOT through tubes but solid state, it has the creamy silkiness of tubes without the power limitations, bi-amped as was my post's first intention, it would be great.  Member "Simon of Suffolk" is a decent man with the nouse to always listen and play with an idea, not shut it down like a little weed. Listen hard ALL, I bought Naim, I own Naim, do I regret it? a little however the sound is fine for mid hifi. Therefore I have no issue with putting my thoughts down, I accept other views but no more smart alec comments.

Moderated Post: Aussiesteve, I have edited your post, removed what is not strictly relevant, and the unhelpful and substituted for the unacceptable language. Please keep your posts civil, to the point and not make observations on members. I don't see any particularly rude or "smart alec" posts leading up to this one that would in any way warrant such a response. The key here is respect - for the forum, the members, your hosts - as someone mentioned on here it's a "two way street". As an aside, Naim don't think anything on this thread, as they have not commented, and likely won't - they do what they do and use Class A where they feel it is best used.  If you want their view then you will need to ask Roy George. In the meantime, if you've found something different that you prefer then go for it.  There's no law to say you must stick with a certain brand and plenty of makers out there of very fine hifi equipment.

blimey 

Brands of far superior quality ?

Naim is Mid-fi?

Clearly the OP isn't enjoying the Pace Rhythm and Timing aspect of Naim, the reason one purchases Naim in the first place, the USP of Naim.

Hi AussieSteve,

I am not familiar with horn speakers but can understand where you are coming from. Most if not all horn speakers are high sensitivity designs hence can be driven by low-powered amps. Owners mostly use low-powered tube or Class A amps to drive horn speakers so I can somehow relate to the purpose of this thread.

I have owned a full Class A Plinius SA-100mkIII (100W) amp and the sound is surely, well, Class A - silky and creamy. I have also briefly tried the classic Musical Fidelity Class A amp when a friend brought it over. The sound quality of the Musical Fidelity amp is surely quite special and it runs very hot after 1 hour. As I changed speakers I figured out the "Naim sound" is more to my cup of tea. Specifically conventional BBC box speakers. I have no doubts Class A amps will be more suitable for specific systems or speakers when compared to Class AB or B amps apart from listening preference playing a role.

I have briefly checked on Boulder amps and they appear to be big and heavy with many openings for heat dissipation. Comprehensible if looking at the circuitry of the amp and the power that it puts out. These days, I prefer amps that are sleek, clean and discreet. I used to adore my Plinius Class A amp - huge, heavy and looking the part with beautiful heat sinks which add to the exclusivity. My uncle who isn't into hifi once mistook the Plinius for a high-end microwave oven when he visited as it looked huge and a solid chunk of metal.

Make no mistaken as the above is not a denigration of Class A amps. It is just an observation of the aesthetics of larger Class A amps. A small Class A amplifier can still look discrete and well, sound like a Class A amp. I would echo some of the sentiments here on Naim making a Class A amp purely on sound quality aspects. The Naim sound is quite distinct in my opinion and experience, and that is what that separates it from the rest of the Class A, AB or B amps.

I looked at the Boulder web site, not sure that’s class A to anyone but their marketing department. Modulating the bias current of the output stage doesn’t look like class A, nor does a nominal 300W power consumption on a 6000W amp but an interesting idea nevertheless.

What are the horns that need so much power? Usually you use  horns for their efficiancy and put up with their size and a bit of colouration for the sake of their dynamics.

You’re on a hifi forum, you’ve got to expect a few nerds.

well I looked at OP profile.

He is running CD5XS with a 282 and 2 Hicaps.

as he says I own Naim, Do I regret it, "a little"

You aren't getting your money's worth with that set up..... You really needed a CDX2 or CDS3 to get your money's worth of from  282.250 DR amplifier.

It really Needs to be said far too many people (I am guilty of that in the past) buy expensive amps, and then don't have the source at the same level to enjoy it properly.

My system at 202/200 level only started to make me smile and enjoy the tunes once I got the Chord Hugo and Naim Dac v1.

I disagree with you AM.

As a previous owner of cd5xs/Nait XS I was amazed at the difference a 282 made. I had it with a 200 and then a Hicap and it was always enjoyable in a way the cdx2 couldn't manage when I upgraded the CD player.

Ray

AussieSteve,

While I can acknowledge some of the lighter tones of your diatribe regarding a clique mentality here, I'd say what do you expect from a forum of Naim owners and why get upset about it? Some display a degree of tunnel vision on their choice to go with all Naim systems and can tend to get derisive. Other Naim owners are more open minded, happily use a mixture of brands, and realize Naim have no patent on PRaT, world class sound, or quality construction. There's also a handful of well-educated engineers and experienced dealers that offer objective views. Several responses here read quite constructive to me.

The odd part is that, as identified in this thread, there are plenty of high quality Class A manufacturers out there to choose from and it's obviously not in Naim's DNA to go there. You made a rather farcical wish on the Naim forum and got responses from Naim owners. I see you're essentially an all-Naim guy with your system. The reality is that if you want to include Class A amplification in it you'll have to introduce another brand.

As an owner of Naim intergateds for several years, I recently went from a SN2 to a Plinius Hautonga. Minor give and take, but overall I found the Plinius superior without a radical departure from Naim's sonic character. You're presumably Down Under, so maybe a demo of a Plinius Class A amp in your system wouldn't be too difficult? Or maybe you've done it already and hoping for better? Just my two cents, trying to be helpful.

thebigfredc posted:

I disagree with you AM.

As a previous owner of cd5xs/Nait XS I was amazed at the difference a 282 made. I had it with a 200 and then a Hicap and it was always enjoyable in a way the cdx2 couldn't manage when I upgraded the CD player.

Ray

But you sold all your naims for Rega ?

I agree with much of what you say Aussie Steve and respect your honesty I too am aware and sometimes annoyed by the hierarchical nature of this forum and can be made to feel a bit queasy at some of psychophantic posts toward those gatekeepers you mentioned but it comes with the territory I'm afraid there usually is a bit of the playground within these forums as they are populated by lots of overgrown school boys but as you mentioned there are also some very balanced members who can offer great advice.

My own advice from experience is listen to those balanced members ignore the rest and don't respond to the rest after a few beers. You are trying something different and that is great hope it all works out for you.

analogmusic posted:

He is running CD5XS with a 282 and 2 Hicaps.

You aren't getting your money's worth with that set up..... You really needed a CDX2 or CDS3 to get your money's worth of from  282.250 DR amplifier.

I've read responses here from folks that found a CD5X(S) more pleasing than a CDX2; the former "smoother, more analog", the latter "too aggressive" and/or "harsh, unforgiving". The notion that spending more on a source component will guarantee improved sonic results in a given system is pure poppycock to me. Furthermore, presuming to dissect another's system based on your own prejudices, or your own value of expenditures reads arrogant to me. Likely the kind of stuff that garnered the ire of the OP when he replied about "the shit from Naim disciples".

Aside from all that, and back to the OP, what does what you've interjected here AM have to do with Class A amplification?

nothing guarantees anything in this game, since expectations and the musical ear differ from person to person, not everyone got the same musical ear.

I thought it was pretty clear what I wrote, that instead of chasing down the amplifier upgrades like class A or whatever you got there "Plinius" (?) - to my ears after so many years, it's down to source to deliver musical satisfaction or not.

In my opinion Chord understand this very well, their DACs shine with pretty much any amp I've tried them with (Naim or not.) which makes me think, is it the source? is the amp? and to my ears, it's the source first that works for me.

282/250DR is a very fine amplifier, can respond to the highest level of sources, but will show up what is pretty much an  entry level Naim source which was meant to be used with a Nait XS.

When I used to own Naim DAC V1 it's musical prowess was easily audible on Non Naim amplifiers too.

People have used LP12 with a Nait, but nobody really uses a 552/500 with a entry level project debut carbon which is a sub 500 GBP turntable.

but whatever floats one's boat, you are happy with your "Plinius" and nobody can deny you are happier with that sound, anything can be argued in the Name of subjectivity and being so call open minded.

 in the end though, why is the OP asking Naim to build a class A amplifier?

Plenty of them available from other companies, so maybe the question hidden somewhere is how can I maximize the performance of my Naim setup?

How I wish you'd not waited so long, AussieSteve, to answer my second question, in the third reply.

I tend to be more interested in people's motive for change here, than in amplifier design, or which cable fits where, which is why I asked you why do you ask naim to make a class A amp. As someone who was trying to tease out your thinking (in I way that I hoped was helpful) your response to my first question was curt. Respect is a two way street.

I do sympathise with AussieSteve he starts a thread with a very simple premise he then doesn't deserve to be ridiculed if you have nothing positive to say or if you cannot explain why something might not in your opinion be a good idea in a constructive and informative way then don't say anything.

This ganging up on someone because they have said something that doesn't fit in is really very childish and why do some of you on this forum get a kick out of trying to make someone else feel bad?  So what if the OP doesn't know the technical implications of putting a Class A amp into a small case I'm sure as he stated he is a fully function human being and has managed to get to a reasonable posistion in life without that knowledge.

There has always been a snide element on this forum but just lately it has been amped the recent thread about Naim being sold in Curry's is a great example of the fact that some of you perceive yourselves to be above or better than the rest purely because you own or can afford to own a particular brand and not only that but you only want to buy that brand at an outlet you percieve is a bit up market, what type of twisted snobbery is that?

Some of you seriously need to get over yourselves just because you have a few quid, have a mid level IQ, drink certain wine, eat certain food, go to certain places, listen to certain music and OWN A CERTAIN BRAND OF HIFI doesn't make you better a better person it just means your a bit MIDDLE class and a bit of a wannabe!

ps. Yes I did get out of the wrong side of bed. 

it's just not eco-friendly to build a Class A amp in 2017.

have you not seen an inconvenient truth part 2 ?  Don't you care about the planet ? 

Even Naim has to concede to EU regulations, for the very first time in Naim history, the new Uniti got SMPS power supplies which keep the unit preamp warm, and it can be put in standby mode. It therefore switches off the big heavy torroid transformers.

with the mains being polluted by SMPS all over the home, maybe SMPS are the way forward, as Chord Electronics and Linn are able to make very good sounding kit with SMPS.

Richard Dane posted:

It's worth remembering that with true Class A power amps there's a large amount of waste heat.  This isn't just inefficient, it can have an impact on reliability and longevity of the components. I learned that the hard way some years ago with a well known UK class A amp that got really hot then broke down - too often for comfort.  The biggest problem was that every time it came back from the manufacturer it sounded totally different to before (not in a good way).  I got rid of it pretty quickly.

Unfortunately, this resonates with my experiences too... severe along years back I was demoing at home a well known British class A amp .. oh boy it sounded sublime, it really did... but it got so hot, and the demo model did actually breakdown on me...perhaps I was unlucky, and I don’t see loads of comments about its unreliability now, but I decided to explore other avenues.

yes but Krell and D'agostino are able to build reliable class A amps....

Huge posted:

A class A amplifier working at reduced current in the output structure is class A/B!

Huge, I didn’t  think this right, and I went to check my aging electronics engineering university undergraduate notes and this isn’t the case at least as far as my university faculty was concerned.. in class B the amplifier splits the amplification and the transistor transfer function into positive and negative portions, the class A part of class AB is about biasing each side into the edge of the linear part of the function so as to increase the linearity of the combined amplification transfer function. Class B amps are rare in audio because of the distortion caused, but are more common say in FM RF amplifiers where distortion of the carrier is irrelevant as long as it’s low pass filtered.

Class A is about having the whole cycle amplified by a single transistor transfer function, and so the bias point is set in the middle of the linear part of the transfer function... hence at zero amplification the transistor is working nominally at 50% of its full gain hence the heat..

analogmusic posted:

it's just not eco-friendly to build a Class A amp in 2017.

have you not seen an inconvenient truth part 2 ?  Don't you care about the planet ? 

Even Naim has to concede to EU regulations, for the very first time in Naim history, the new Uniti got SMPS power supplies which keep the unit preamp warm, and it can be put in standby mode. It therefore switches off the big heavy torroid transformers.

with the mains being polluted by SMPS all over the home, maybe SMPS are the way forward, as Chord Electronics and Linn are able to make very good sounding kit with SMPS.

Nor is it eco-friendly to leave other power devices switched on when not in use.! I don't know what a Naim power amp with its separate power supply consumes as quiescent current when powered up and not in use - 50W maybe. That would be about the same electricity consumption as a class A amp consuming 250W powered for 5 hours a day every day.

SMPSs may well be the better answer for power amp power supplies - but the benefits would equally apply used for class A amps.

Of course, for energy efficiency, perhaps class D is the environmentally correct mode (Devialet anyone?). And for energy efficiency, full horn loading can require only a tenth or less of the amplifier power for the same sound level. (And with horns, the OP is largely cancelling out the lower efficiency of class A).

but this is all missing the point - are we in it for the sound, or what? My desire is the best sound, and with that the most environmentally friendly way of delivering it. So the qestion is, which type of amp gives the best sound? (Of course, it depends on what charactaristics each individual regards as 'best'.)  

AussieSteve posted:

Wow, enough from Naim disciples. Since no one in this forum seem aware of the brands of far superior quality which run solid state Class A, let alone understand the real benefits of it's sound. Since I mentioned this issue, it as usual has warmed up the attitudes of you usual smart alecs.  I have been all too honest and forgiving in the past, no more. This forum is run by a team of ëxpert" owners whom have opinions on every topic, as though they are the gatekeepers of all thinks electronic and naim. If Naim think Class A is all heat sinks, I refer their engineers to Boulder Audio USA, let alone all the other top shelf brands which CAN do it, all without huge heatsinks and NO transformer hum. Use your own ears, have a listen to horn speakers NOT through tubes but solid state, it has the creamy silkiness of tubes without the power limitations, bi-amped as was my post's first intention, it would be great.  Member "Simon of Suffolk" is a decent man with the nouse to always listen and play with an idea, not shut it down like a little weed. Listen hard ALL, I bought Naim, I own Naim, do I regret it? a little however the sound is fine for mid hifi. Therefore I have no issue with putting my thoughts down, I accept other views but no more smart alec comments.

Moderated Post: Aussiesteve, I have edited your post, removed what is not strictly relevant, and the unhelpful and substituted for the unacceptable language. Please keep your posts civil, to the point and not make observations on members. I don't see any particularly rude or "smart alec" posts leading up to this one that would in any way warrant such a response. The key here is respect - for the forum, the members, your hosts - as someone mentioned on here it's a "two way street". As an aside, Naim don't think anything on this thread, as they have not commented, and likely won't - they do what they do and use Class A where they feel it is best used.  If you want their view then you will need to ask Roy George. In the meantime, if you've found something different that you prefer then go for it.  There's no law to say you must stick with a certain brand and plenty of makers out there of very fine hifi equipment.

Thank you to the moderator.

This was an offensive post, and not deserving of the rational responses it received. The previous comments by forum members may (or may not) have been opinionated, Naim-oriented or whatever, but they were aimed solely at Class A amplification. Not so the OP, who posted personal and offensive criticisms. To me, that is quite different, and totally unacceptable.

I wish we wouldn’t over use the word ‘offensive’.. it’s lazy... yes a post can be distepectful, conceited, bigoted, churlish, inflammatory etc... but offensive on such a benign subject? I don’t think so.. my little request is we don’t dilute our language... people seem far to willing to take offence, and that is an issue, in my opinion, more with the person being offended and their lack of tolerance and sense of perspective rather than the person giving the perceived offence...which more often than not is simply a case of a lack of manners and can simply be ignored.

To the OP: out of interest, what speakers are they you have? Commercial horns or home brew? Is the bass fully horn loaded (wow, big!)?

I had some experience using horns a few decades back when I ran a rock disco, when the efficiency meant my 50wpc Radford amp from my hufi system of the day was sufficient to have high sound levels in a pub packed with 3 hundred or so Reading Rock festival fans. At one gig I was asked "what are you running, 2k, 3k? And my 100w answer was met with disbelief.

Those were far from being hifi speakers, but the directness of sound (pun not intended!) was quite something, reinforcing the soft spot I'd had for horns ever since the Wireless World article back in 1974 that included DIY details. The usual concerns are a tendency to a 'honkiness', though I have always assumed that is a matter of purity of design, which is so difficult to get right in a domestically manageable object.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I wish we wouldn’t over use the word ‘offensive’.. it’s lazy... yes a post can be distepectful, conceited, bigoted, churlish, inflammatory etc... but offensive on such a benign subject? I don’t think so.. my little request is we don’t dilute our language... people seem far to willing to take offence, and that is an issue, in my opinion, more with the person being offended and their lack of tolerance and sense of perspective rather than the person giving the perceived offence...which more often than not is simply a case of a lack of manners and can simply be ignored.

I agree Simon that people are all to ready to take 'offence' IMO more often than not it is those that find no issue being offensive that are too ready to take offence.  There are those in every walk of life today that hide behind 'homespun', 'straight talking' who are in fact just lacking in manners and also there are those that hide behind humour to be rude,

'I was only joking' is a firm favourite,  I was always taught that if you can't take it then don't give it.  Nobody wants watered down opinion and everybody is entitled to their own opinion this however does not excuse being rude.