ATC SCM100 vs B&W 802 D2

This would be interesting.  I suppose with Active ATC would only allow a preamp connection.

Romi posted:

This would be interesting.  I suppose with Active ATC would only allow a preamp connection.

Quite so Romi, so the question will be how does the ATC active tri-amp compare to the passive Naim NAP500 ?

If the answer is 'better', then the sale of the NAP500 could part-fund the ATC100 purchase and the sale of B&W 802's could cover the remainder of the (approx) £17k.

But then, who in their right mind would wish to get rid of a NAP500 ?   

You should try the 802 D3.

I’ve not heard the scm100 actives but I did the scm50. It sounded nice but too polite for my tastes. Analytical I’d say when compared to a good Naim plus passive setup. It lacks the slam and openness that Naim amps bring. They’re great for studio monitoring and friendly to the ears which may be good or bad depending on your preference. They certainly sound nowhere as ”live” as Naim, in fact far from it.

Fwiw I’m running a nds/555dr/552dr/500dr/SL full loom with a passive scm40v2 which totally kills the scm50. The scm50 actives were hooked up to a Prism sound Callas DAC. 

I still fail to understand this with Naim gear and Naim owners (me included). I just don't see how fronting a $7K speaker with $80K worth of electronics works. 
In other words, why does one need $80K worth of Naim gear to get the best out of $8K speakers? I would think a NDX/SN2 should suffice from a price point perspective.

I'm guilty too - got NDS/552/300 fronting Kudos Super 20s.

MangoMonkey posted:

I still fail to understand this with Naim gear and Naim owners (me included). I just don't see how fronting a $7K speaker with $80K worth of electronics works. 
In other words, why does one need $80K worth of Naim gear to get the best out of $8K speakers? I would think a NDX/SN2 should suffice from a price point perspective.

I'm guilty too - got NDS/552/300 fronting Kudos Super 20s.

Nail hit on head for those who are the believers.

TOBYJUG posted:

MangoMonkey posted:

I still fail to understand this with Naim gear and Naim owners (me included). I just don't see how fronting a $7K speaker with $80K worth of electronics works. 
In other words, why does one need $80K worth of Naim gear to get the best out of $8K speakers? I would think a NDX/SN2 should suffice from a price point perspective.

I'm guilty too - got NDS/552/300 fronting Kudos Super 20s.

Nail hit on head for those who are the believers.

1. 

I've never seen such convincing proof before Tobyjug... this is life changing stuff  (not unlike the NAC552 in fact) 

MangoMonkey posted:

I still fail to understand this with Naim gear and Naim owners (me included). I just don't see how fronting a $7K speaker with $80K worth of electronics works. 
In other words, why does one need $80K worth of Naim gear to get the best out of $8K speakers? I would think a NDX/SN2 should suffice from a price point perspective.

I'm guilty too - got NDS/552/300 fronting Kudos Super 20s.

Lol. I’ve an 803d3 on order to replace the scm40’s if that makes it more balanced. 

But the SCM40 really are hard to drive speakers and benefits from a 500.

Well I've spent the majority of today listening to a variety of my favourite music in both CD and hi-res formats. I've swapped between my own B&W 802 D2's and the demo ATC SCM100's.  I've done the 'listen awhile to one then change to the other set of speakers'  and I've done the  'listen to one track twice carefully then swap speakers & play the same track again'  modes of auditioning.  I've used the 'involuntary foot tapping' test (the 'if you find your foot moving without deliberate thought, it must be good' test). And I've taken tea breaks at appropriate intervals.  Most importantly, I've remained sober throughout.

And my thoughts at the end of the day, surprisingly perhaps, are that my initial impressions have not altered...  I prefer the openness and slight brightness of the 802's compared to the ATC100's.  My imression of the bass remains likewise unaltered, the ATC's have it in spades (don't you just hate that phrase?), but it still dominates just that tad too much and has an effect akin to hiding or confusing the upper registers ever so slightly.

There is no doubting the fact that these ATC 100 speakers, in passive mode, are remarkably accomplished speakers and there's no doubting that there are many speakers from which the ATC will be a huge jump in SQ,  but for me I'm loving my 802 D2's more than I'm loving these 100's and so, next week, they are moving on to the next potential purchaser for their evaluation, and I've forgone the opportunity to audition an active pair on the basis that a NAP500 will better the inbuilt ATC amps (I hope that supposition is correct!).

Oh, and one final comment from the ultimate authority on speakers... "They don't look as nice as your ones" - SWMBO (bless her).

Roger

Sounds like you've reached the right conclusion, Roger.  Initial impressions can be misleading because sometimes we are attracted to the 'difference' we are hearing rather than making a more reflective judgement on preference. So being patient and coming to the question several times for re-evaluation is very prudent (how many people make snap judgements in dealers' demos and later regret it, I wonder?).  Moreover, I've always told myself that potential upgrades have to be a substantial improvement - incremental 'improvements' that you have to listen for aren't sufficient.

Still, you no doubts enjoyed the trial. That's all part of what makes this hobby/passion fun.  

Did you have the tweeters on the inside or the outside ?

On the inside, Tobyjug, as per the user manual. Not that I'd have noticed, but Dave from ATC installed them for the dem and thankfully he seems to know how they should be (unless he just got lucky  ).

Well, keeping with the 802s saves money, never a bad thing! Personally I didn't feel they were for me, but I compared with PMC MB2SE not ATCs - however it would be boring if we all liked the same thing - enjoy!

rjstaines posted:

...... I've forgone the opportunity to audition an active pair on the basis that a NAP500 will better the inbuilt ATC amps (I hope that supposition is correct!).......

Roger

You owe it to yourself to listen to the Active version - which is in a completely different league.

ATC SCM 100 ASL should be superior to seperate power amps and speaker cables driving a passive speaker. Much more control and accuracy.

Though with your substantial investment in those expensive 500’s, it is understandable that  you would want to avoid any chance of being disappointed with what you already have.

On the other hand ....... give it a go!

There area good reasons why many professional artists use ATC. Check out the user list.

It is the crossover which is the weak point in any speaker configuration..... which is why active designs are generally much better than a passive.

ATC are predominately used in recording studios and know exactly how active should be executed.

I listened recently to the SCM50's passive with a Vitus Signature power amp (about £20k) vs SCM100's active. No contest to my ears, SCM100's easily, despite the SCM100's (including their own inbuilt amps) costing less than the Vitus power amp on its own. SCM50's passive were ok and quite pleasant but a bit pedestrian compared to the SCM100's which were a goosebumps on the arms moment within 20 seconds. I wouldn't underestimate ATC's power amps in active configuration.

MangoMonkey posted:

I still fail to understand this with Naim gear and Naim owners (me included). I just don't see how fronting a $7K speaker with $80K worth of electronics works. 
In other words, why does one need $80K worth of Naim gear to get the best out of $8K speakers? I would think a NDX/SN2 should suffice from a price point perspective.

I'm guilty too - got NDS/552/300 fronting Kudos Super 20s.

Agree.  Better to use money to but a new stand

Allan Probin posted:

I listened recently to the SCM50's passive with a Vitus Signature power amp (about £20k) vs SCM100's active. No contest to my ears, SCM100's easily, despite the SCM100's (including their own inbuilt amps) costing less than the Vitus power amp on its own. SCM50's passive were ok and quite pleasant but a bit pedestrian compared to the SCM100's which were a goosebumps on the arms moment within 20 seconds. I wouldn't underestimate ATC's power amps in active configuration.

This is interesting Allan, the 'goosebumps' effect was what I got at the dealer ATC day - they were active SCM100s - but 'goosebumps' I certainly didn't  get with my passive + NAP500 home dem.  And as I mentioned above, with everyone telling me the NAP500 + passive would certainly out-perform the active version, I've foregone an active home dem.

I wonder if I'm doing the right thing by writing them off on the basis of their passive performance?  (and other people's opinions)  

Hi RJ,

Having heard a pair of active SCM150, I would say keep the 500DR and maybe consider the B&W802D3.

Just a thought, as I help you spend your money on an already fabulous system that will be awesome as it is!

Best regards, FT

Foot tapper posted:

Hi RJ,

Having heard a pair of active SCM150, I would say keep the 500DR and maybe consider the B&W802D3.

Just a thought, as I help you spend your money on an already fabulous system that will be awesome as it is!

Best regards, FT

Thanks FT, your help is appreciated  (although I'm not sure I speak for SWMBO ...but then she doesn't read this forum)

Hi Roger,

Interesting read especially as I am a B&W 802D2s owner and really enjoy them in my system ????

Back in Jan 2016 I had a dem of the 802D3s along with Steve J and I think we were both impressed but I am still very happy  grooving with my D2s ????

Steve J, I trust all is well with you and yours if you are reading this.

All the best,

Richard

I have used a variety of active ATCs for many years - 100s, 25s and 50s. I really do suggest you listen the active versions, they are in a different league, for very good reasons. And if the 100s produce more bass than you want in your room, try the 50s. And don’t forget you can have tower versions, possibly with the rather special Anniversary amp packs as opposed to the standard amp pack. They also look very nice, simple understated high quality,

FangfossFlyer posted:

Steve J, I trust all is well with you and yours if you are reading this.

 

Haven't seen Steve J on here for quite a while. Perhaps he's driving around the world in that new Defender of his.  

Yeah, whatever he is doing I hope he is having fun!

Hi RJ. What was the source used for the ATC actives demo that gave you goosebumps? If you found the bass a little much it could be because ATC designs tend to have slower bass roll off (a good thing) which can result in more perceived bass. The port on the  50 and 100 is for woofer loading only, it doesn't boost bass.

Bass is likely to be better controlled on the actives. As you go down the range the bass gets more diminished. Perhaps the active 50 or 40 would be a better match for your room or taste.

It may be that you simply prefer the B&W sound. Have you considered the 802 D3 or 803 D3?