ATC SCM100 vs B&W 802 D2

vintageaxeman posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Yes, as a package ATCs actives seem remarkably good VFM, as well as, erm, compact (if you can call rather large speakers compact).

The trouble with my experimentation with active is that it will involve either a stack of 3 stereo amps somewhere, or potentially a pair (1 stereo and 1 mono)  exude each speaker, all more bulky and costly than true active speakers because the amps are designed for independent use. 

Except that ATC actives include the power amps, mounted on the rear....

Yes, that was exactly my point - my activating if my speakers has the disadvantage of the additional space (and cost).

Beachcomber posted:

I would imagine that the crossover frequencies would be wrong, plus the Naim amps, AIUI, need a minimum length of speaker cable to work properly.

To do that, better buy the passive version and remove the crossovers (I have no idea how easy that is, but knowing ATC I would be surprised if it’s a problem)

Crossover points seem the same and obviously any length of speaker cable could be applied

lyndon

lyndon posted:

Crossover points seem the same and obviously any length of speaker cable could be applied

lyndon

 

Snaic should be settable to any crossover frequencies, though whether their roll off rate (crossover order) is best suited to ATC’s drivers I have no idea. But the amps are highly unlikely to  fit in the ATC cabinets, so you’d need some speaker cable anyway - but of course x3.

Hungryhalibut posted:

The ATC manual for the SCM20ASLT states that one should start with the speakers 2m from the wall, which would rather rule them out. 15cm is about all I could manage. I’d imagine this would give far too much bass. 

Ignore that, it's an ideal, it's the same in every ATC speaker manual. In practice the sealed design firing from the front will allow them to go as close as any other speaker.

So anybody in a position to compare NDS/555, 552 ,active 2x NAP300, Kudos 707. @ c£60000 with say Melco, DAVE, preamp with XLRs and ATC SCM100 @ c£30000?

The £30000 price difference is significant but would the loss of the Naim sound signature be a step too far? 

Are there any dealers that sell Chord, Naim and ATC to set up the comparison? I can think of a few that do two out of the three but not all three.

Jonn posted:

So anybody in a position to compare NDS/555, 552 ,active 2x NAP300, Kudos 707. @ c£60000 with say Melco, DAVE, preamp with XLRs and ATC SCM100 @ c£30000?

The £30000 price difference is significant but would the loss of the Naim sound signature be a step too far? 

Are there any dealers that sell Chord, Naim and ATC to set up the comparison? I can think of a few that do two out of the three but not all three.

[N.B. Preamp not strictly needed in the non-Naim system, unless you have analog inputs (in which case Davina?) or  want a Naim influence in there.]

That is the comparison that, in part, many people are always doing. And if I was buying a full system from scratch with adequate funds, there would be benefit in being able to compare as simple discrete systems. 

But would there then be the thought “what about component X”?  E.g. for me, I would need convincing that ATC SCM100A sounds better than PMC MB2SE, active or passive - not because I doubt, but because I know I love the MB2 but don’t know if I love the ATC (apart from its mid) - though the PMC actives  would push the price up closer to the Naim-Kudos setup...  etc

of course, your question begs another in return: what exactly is the ‘Naim sound’...?

IB are you aware PMC in it's early days used ATC drivers? Either got too expensive or ATC stopped selling them so PMC started to replicate them. For example, the 75 mid driver in the mb2s you love traces its roots back to ATC.

For me the "naim sound" has , apart from the PRAT which most people identify, a certain organic quality which gives it body and substance as well as sounding lifelike and engaging. I've heard a number of other makes, Linn in particular, that emphasise detail over substance so can sound impressive, but too clinical and uninvolving for my liking.

Halloween Man posted:

IB are you aware PMC in it's early days used ATC drivers? Either got too expensive or ATC stopped selling them so PMC started to replicate them. For example, the 75 mid driver in the mb2s you love traces its roots back to ATC.

I do know that they used the SM75-150 mid unit, until they produced their own clone (but only in the big models like MB2). And I have experimented at home with the ATC driver in conjunction with my own PMC speakers- (not one with ATC clone mids - and found them to be an improvement (reported in another thread).

The question mark in my head is with regard to bass, as i) from experience I prefer the sound of transmission line bass over reflex (used in the SCM50 and upwards which might be regarded as equivalents to the larger PMCs), and ii) on spec at least, the ATCs roll off quite a bit higher at the bass end than the PMCs. These considerations don't rule out ATCs as I haven't heard them, but simply begs the question.

I read ATC don't use the port to extend bass, not sure if it's strictly considered a reflex design, it's only there to help the bass driver in some way to reduce distortion.

One of the reasons I didn't try the SCM40A sooner was because of the modest low frequency specs. Needless to say I'm pleased I eventually did because in practice the speakers make a mockery of the specs and are indeed full range speakers with more than enough low frequency extension for most typical UK living rooms. The bass is precise and natural.

PMC make great speakers (my previous speakers were 20.23, and I demo'd 20.26) so it will be interesting to know your thoughts if you ever do compare.

It's a bit of an anomaly having a thread about ATC on the Naim Forum, BUT, if Naim will kindly allow it....if I may....

ATC have been in the business since the mid seventies. That's a long time. In the early days, ATC used to sell their self-manufactured bass and mid units to third parties, but for a long time now, their premium mid driver has NOT been sold to anyone else. It is ONLY used in their own range of loudspeakers. The same applies to their own incredible tweeters, and as far as I know, to their SuperLinear bass drivers.

I run an LP12/LVIII/Akiva through a Superline/Hicap2, and a Krell KPS20i through a NaDAC/XP5-XS, through an ATC SCA2 pre-amp into a pair of their 150 litre active speakers. Rather than tell you just how wonderful I think ATC's speakers are, you could peruse ATC's client list, which just happens to be on their website and is also proudly engraved on a huge brass plate on the wall in ATC's reception area. The following is just a selection from their official client list.  My name isn't on the list, because I am just an ordinary Joe.  There will be hundreds of people just like me, who quietly enjoy these very special loudspeakers at home.  But ATC is NOT an ordinary company. And their speakers are most DEFINITELY not ordinary either.  Just take a look at the list. Then you'll see that, just like Naim, ATC have a particularly enviable reputation for a very good reason.

Dolby Laboratories Inc., San Francisco, U.S.A.

Mark Knopfler

Lenny Kravitz

Eric Johnson

Calvin Harris

Pink Floyd

Ian Anderson

Enya

Tom Petty (RIP)

Roger Waters

Manfred Mann

Beck

Daniel Bedingfield

The Rolling Stones

Kate Bush

Lou Reed

Jack White

Rick Springfield

Ziggy Marley

Ray LaMontagne

Coldplay

James Newton Howard

Diana Krall

Joe Satriani

The Killers

Sting

David Gilmour

Mark Ronson

Buddy Miller

Aura, London, UK 

The Living Room, New York, USA

Ronnie Scotts, London, UK

China White, London, UK

Maddox, London, UK

Walt Disney Concert Hall, Los Angeles, USA

The Wigmore Hall, London, UK

Royal Opera House, London, UK

Sydney Opera House, Sydney, Australia 

Bing Concert Hall, Stanford, UK  

Shanghai Symphony Orchestra, Shanghai, China

BBC UK

Carlton Television

London Post

Swedish Radio

Broadcast Station Sapporo

London Studios (ITV)

Polish Broadcast

CBC Canada

Hokkaido Television Sapporo

Asahi Television Tokyo

SBS Television Australia

Esprit Film & Television, Gloucestershire, England

Ishikawa Television Japan

Tokai Television Nagoya

Fuji Television Tokyo

WGBH Boston

Off the Fence, Bristol, England

Studio KGB, Paris, France

Doug Sax

Giles Martin at Abbey Road (on the Beatles re-Masters)

John McBride

George Massenburg

Greg Walsh

Omar Hakim

Hugh Padgham

Ian Broudie

Barry Grint at Alchemy Mastering “Remastering Jeff Wayne’s War Of The Worlds, The Stranglers, Declan McKenna, Tom Odell, Sean Paul, Roger Waters; vinyl mastering for All Tvvins, Gorillaz, Laura Mvula, Little Mix, Radiohead, Rag’n’Bone Man, The Libertines, The Rolling Stones…”

Peter Walsh

Michael Bishop

Robert Miles

Mark Ronson

Bob Ludwig

James Guthrie

T-Bone Burnett

Steve Perry

Ziggy Marley

Michael Cohen

Greg Hayes

Paul Reed Smith

Zak Starkey

Simon  Rhodes

Joe Chiccarelli

London College Of Music

US Airforce

Cambridge University

Cleveland Institute Of Music

Fife University

Birmingham University

Essex University

Bristol University

Surrey University

The Tate Gallery

University Of Wales

Columbia University Chicago

Library Of Congress USA

Istanbul Tech. University

Conservatory of Recording Arts and Sciences

Museum of World’s High End Audio and Visuals, Yangjiang, China

Bath University

The Hochschule für Musik Detmold, Germany

East West Studios, Los Angeles, USA

Mike Wells Mastering, Los Angeles, USA

Real Songs, Los Angeles, USA

The Magic Shop, New York, USA

Blue Man Productions New York, USA

Washhouse Studios, Hawaii

The Bridge Recording, California, USA

Barefoot Recording, Los Angeles, USA

The Great Divide Studios, Colorado, USA

Manifold Recording, North Carolina, USA

Odds On Studios , Las Vegas, USA

Wire Road Studios, Texas, USA

WGBH, Boston, Massachusetts, USA

Ex’Pression Center, Bay Area, California, USA

25th St Recording, Oakland, California, USA

Front Stage, Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Peabody Conservatory, Baltimore, Maryland, USA

Java Jive Studios, Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Alchemy Mastering, London, UK

Dean Street, London, UK

DVR Mastering, Bonheiden, Belgium

Lurssen Mastering, Los Angeles, California, USA

Sony Music Studios, New York, USA

Warner Bros, Burbank, California, USA

Polygram Wisseloord, Holland

Snap! Studios, London, UK

K&A Productions, Hertfordshire, UK

Pioneer, Barcelona, Spain

Telarc Records, Cleveland, Ohio, USA

Paramount Studios, Hollywood, California, USA

The Astoria Studio, London, UK

Bunkersound, North Carolina

Kore Studios, London

State of the Ark, London

Jarvis Recording, New York, USA

Beacon Recording Studios, Dublin, Ireland  

Alberts, London, UK

Angel Studios, London, UK

Chelsea Studio, New York, USA

Theirry Allard, Belgium

Fluxivity Recording, Brooklyn, USA

Matrix, London, UK

York Street Studio, London, UK

Boogiepark Studios, Hamburg, Germany

Bruce Dunlop Associates, London, UK

Sirensound Audio Archiving, Gloucestershire, UK

Crazy Sound, Guadeloupe

Dave Collins Mastering

Conservatory of Recording ARts & Sciences, Arizona, USA

Orrong Studio, Japan

Yellow Shark, Gloucestershire, UK

Expand, London, UK

Black Lab, Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Abko, New York, USA

Sony SACD, New York, USA

Yellow Box Studios, Singapore

Backstage, Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Fluke Productions, London, UK

Spectral Harmony, Mumbai, India

Sanctury Mobiles (Music Vault), London, UK

Hammon, Tel Aviv

Zaza Tel, Aviv

Third Man Records, Nashville, Tennessee

Loco Wales

Lakeside Studio, Zuchwil, Switzerland

Loud Recording, Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Crystalphonic, Charlottesvillie, Virginia, USA

Bonati Mastering, Brooklyn, New York

Loud Mastering, Taunton, England

Allen Hunnie Mastering

Studio G, Brooklyn

Air, London, UK

Moles Studio, Bath, UK

Arc Studio, Aberdeenshire, Scotland

Kash Productions, Madrid, Spain

The Dairy, London, UK

Will Shapland Mobiles

Sain Records, Wales, UK

Trypoul Recording Studios, Neerkant, Netherlands

Mute Records, London, UK

Todd Ao, New York, USA

Ground Control, Los Angeles, USA

Angell Sound, London, UK

Phoenix Sound Pinewood, London, UK

Mosfilm, Moscow, Russia

DTS, Calabasas, California, USA

The Premises Studios, London, UK

Beechpark Studios, Dublin, Ireland

Great Divide Studios, Aspen, USA

Electric Lady Studios, New York, USA

The Magic Shop, New York, USA

Rainmaker Studios, Richmond, Virginia, USA

RDB Adlabs Kolkata

Riverlight Studios, London, UK

Royal Palace Studio, Brunei

CTS

British Grove Studios, London, UK

Keynote Studios, Homebush, Alabama, USA

HP Mastering, Hamberg, Germany

Seismosonic, Lonsee, Germany 

Audionerve, Hamberg, Germany 

Cutting Room Studios, Stockholm, Sweden

The Ranch Mastering, Beacon, New York

MG Sound, Vienna, Austria

Skye Mastering, Isle of Skye, Scotland

MARSH Recording Studio, Slovenia

Maratone, Sweden

Edison Studios, New York, USA

The list was a bit much... especially as I suspect many on that list would be on a list of users of PMC speakers, a list of users of Genelec speakers, a list of users of Dynaudio speakers, a list of users of Focal speakers ... I’m sure you get the idea!

lyndon posted:

so theoretically could the ATC amps be replaced by naim amps and a snaxo ??

lyndon

 

NOTHING would stop you doing that. It's all perfectly feasible, but ATC's plate amps are perfectly matched to their loudspeakers.  ATC's larger speakers (SCM50xxx, 100, 150, 200 or 300 litre sizes) all use either a crossover and tri-amped plate amp OR a passive crossover mounted on a plate at the rear of the speaker in its own compartment. Same sized plates for either active or passive. So it's easy to switch from one to the other. I actually have all the wiring diagrams for ATC speakers (and the amp schematics too!), so it is very straightforward for me to make any changes or mods.

If you wanted to use Naim power amps, you COULD plan to buy some used ATC speakers and remove whatever active or passive panel is on the back, and have then a correctly sized panel made up with banana type speaker terminals on it. I actually made up one a CAD design for a London studio for a pair of these last year. They had it cut in London, and wired it up themselves. 

You could then use Naim power amps and a 3-way crossover such as a 3-way Snaxo. I actually did that once and still have the three NAP160s and the Snaxo if anyone is interested.

Or if you wanted to buy new, you could get in touch with ATC and ask them to quote you for a passive pair minus crossover, with drivers connected directly to the terminals on the rear panel. ATC used to make active crossover units....I have had two of these in the past, and sold one to a recording studio only recently. I don't know if ATC still makes active crossover units. You would have to ask.

Yes, ATC speakers are very fine, I've listened to them many times. But I still prefer the legacy Naim speakers, driven actively as they were originally designed to do. So in the end, it's what individual tastes dictate, thank god.

Eloise posted:

The list was a bit much... especially as I suspect many on that list would be on a list of users of PMC speakers, a list of users of Genelec speakers, a list of users of Dynaudio speakers, a list of users of Focal speakers ... I’m sure you get the idea!

I can not argue with your point. I did realise it was a long list, even in its truncated form. I had hoped that nobody would criticize me too harshly for including it, and you do make your point very clearly but respectfully, which I thank you for.  I am sure, though, that most forum members would, like myself, think the list of ATC users to be extremely impressive.

vintageaxeman posted:

It's a bit of an anomaly having a thread about ATC on the Naim Forum, BUT, if Naim will kindly allow it....if I may....

ATC have been in the business since the mid seventies. That's a long time. In the early days, ATC used to sell their self-manufactured bass and mid units to third parties, but for a long time now, their premium mid driver has NOT been sold to anyone else. It is ONLY used in their own range of loudspeakers. The same applies to their own incredible tweeters, and as far as I know, to their SuperLinear bass drivers.

I run an LP12/LVIII/Akiva through a Superline/Hicap2, and a Krell KPS20i through a NaDAC/XP5-XS, through an ATC SCA2 pre-amp into a pair of their 150 litre active speakers. Rather than tell you just how wonderful I think ATC's speakers are, you could peruse ATC's client list, which just happens to be on their website and is also proudly engraved on a huge brass plate on the wall in ATC's reception area. The following is just a selection from their official client list.  My name isn't on the list, because I am just an ordinary Joe.  There will be hundreds of people just like me, who quietly enjoy these very special loudspeakers at home.  But ATC is NOT an ordinary company. And their speakers are most DEFINITELY not ordinary either.  Just take a look at the list. Then you'll see that, just like Naim, ATC have a particularly enviable reputation for a very good reason.

This is not arguing against your point, but balancing it a little. Personally I am quite convinced of the quality and integrity of ATC's products, just with the one question mark in my head mentioned above. A comparative audition would be a nice thing to do! I would certainly like to hear the SCM 100s, as just purchased by the OP, in my room, also the 150 - but the shear size and weight of these might be another matter. ATCs are quite a bit cheaper than the similarly sized PMCs, I guess largely a function of the cabinet complexity necessary for that bass extension in the PMCs, though I think the lower cost also extends to the amplification when active versions are compared. All in all, if the ATCs do indeed sound as good in the bass as some on here have said, notwithstanding the specs, then they are mighty good value for money, as well as sounding mighty good!

ATC were actually still selling their superlative SM75-150 mid unit on the open market right up to this year - indeed, I posted a notice on the forum when I learned it was about to be withdrawn, maybe about April or so. However I did hear somewhere that although PMC used it early on, they had to change quite a few years ago because ATC didn't want to keep selling to a direct competitor, but that is hearsay.

PMC, by the way, though they haven't been going as long as ATC, also have an extensive pro client list (though I can't be bothered to compare directly - and I suspect for many the long list above will simply be a turn-off).

tonym posted:

Yes, ATC speakers are very fine, I've listened to them many times. But I still prefer the legacy Naim speakers, driven actively as they were originally designed to do. So in the end, it's what individual tastes dictate, thank god.

I totally agree, Tony.  I am not personally promoting ATC above any other make. But as an ATC owner, I did want to respond to some of the questions that were being posed.  I genuinely believe that Naim speakers, like B&W, DynAudio, and many, many others, are SUPERB.  I was simply underlining the fact that ATC speakers have a reputation for a reason too, for anyone who was unsure about them.

I have to say, reading vintageaxeman's list of ATC clients, I wondered if the inclusion of the US Air Force should make me re-think my buying decision... but then I remembered Naim count Bentley among its clients, and if cars are good enough for Naim, then aircraft would be good enough for ATC.  And besides that ATC have a lot more credible clients on their list, so needn't really have included USAF.  

I'm now wondering if it's the classic stand mount or the towers they install in their planes over there accross the pond? 

rjstaines posted:

I have to say, reading vintageaxeman's list of ATC clients, I wondered if the inclusion of the US Air Force should make me re-think my buying decision...

Surely you’ve seen the Apocalypse Now “Ride of the Valkyries” scene...

I thought Kate Bush had DBLs  ??

lyndon

Innocent Bystander posted:

This is not arguing against your point, but balancing it a little. Personally I am quite convinced of the quality and integrity of ATC's products, just with the one question mark in my head mentioned above. A comparative audition would be a nice thing to do! I would certainly like to hear the SCM 100s, as just purchased by the OP, in my room, also the 150 - but the shear size and weight of these might be another matter. ATCs are quite a bit cheaper than the similarly sized PMCs, I guess largely a function of the cabinet complexity necessary for that bass extension in the PMCs, though I think the lower cost also extends to the amplification when active versions are compared. All in all, if the ATCs do indeed sound as good in the bass as some on here have said, notwithstanding the specs, then they are mighty good value for money, as well as sounding mighty good!

ATC were actually still selling their superlative SM75-150 mid unit on the open market right up to this year - indeed, I posted a notice on the forum when I learned it was about to be withdrawn, maybe about April or so. However I did hear somewhere that although PMC used it early on, they had to change quite a few years ago because ATC didn't want to keep selling to a direct competitor, but that is hearsay.

PMC, by the way, though they haven't been going as long as ATC, also have an extensive pro client list (though I can't be bothered to compare directly - and I suspect for many the long list above will simply be a turn-off).

 

Absolutely, IB.

The Midrange unit by the way, had 2 versions....The SM75-150 and the SM75-150S.  I agree that the non-S version was available through Wilmslow Audio until some time ago for DIYers, but the S version has not been for at least a decade.... Wilmslow now sell a similar looking Volt unit but it has some quite different specs.  Celef also used ATC drivers years ago, and certainly PMC did too.

Cheers, David

rjstaines posted:

I have to say, reading vintageaxeman's list of ATC clients, I wondered if the inclusion of the US Air Force should make me re-think my buying decision... but then I remembered Naim count Bentley among its clients, and if cars are good enough for Naim, then aircraft would be good enough for ATC.  And besides that ATC have a lot more credible clients on their list, so needn't really have included USAF.  

I'm now wondering if it's the classic stand mount or the towers they install in their planes over there accross the pond? 

OMG, and there was me thinking ATC stood for Air Traffic Control..... 

vintageaxeman posted:

OMG, and there was me thinking ATC stood for Air Traffic Control..... 

Perhaps the USAF just use ATC speakers for earthquake testing!

I think anyone with DBLs can create their own personal earthquake with that 15” ATC bass driver

lyndon