Expert level setup (NDS/552/300) ?

Am following this and other related posts with interest, as over the last couple of months i have built up a similar (but not quite as spectacular) system with a 252 and non DR 300 to accompany an ex dem NDS.

Would a similar configuration of brain/brawn suit the 252 in the same way as it is suggested the 552 benefits?

Of the two vacant shelves, is one of these a suitable place for the Unitiserve and is one better than another?

Mr Dusty Sox system rebuild was with NDS-2x555PS - 552 - 500 components and he reported that his system 'came alive' when he moved the NDS that was previously sitting atop the two 555PS on the brawn stack over to the top of the brain stack, as I'd suggested he try before I visited.

In short we re-did the system to end-up with:

Top: NDS on std level - std level empty space - 552 on tall level - 500 Head on std level - empty base level

Top: 555PS on Med level - 555PS on Med level - 552PS on std level - std level empty space - 300PS on base level

Both stacks ended-up the same height, which was important to the owner.

What type of shelf the component sits on also impacts the sound of the system and I find not having all standard levels adds a lot more colour and openness to the voicing in the final result.

This had space around all boxes and sound rather good. Not having boxes crammed-close is more important than having the top shelf. The top shelf does ensure at least one side of the box is free, but you achieve very similar with space of larger shelf-spacers or empty shelves.

I always found the 552 worked fine on the second shelf down as long as it had plenty of space from the next item above or below it. Medium shelves sounded best and tall can also work very well, but only one tall level in any stack.

I never found any source of any kind ever sounded right with a transformer box right under it. Space will obviously help, but in a different rack is best.

Then arrange to assist cable-dressing and you are there.

But whatever is decided - as long as you think it sounds good and enjoy it then you have your answer. My suggestions are for those that are not happy they are getting the right level of performance from their investment and are willing to experiment.

DB.

ct posted:

Am following this and other related posts with interest, as over the last couple of months i have built up a similar (but not quite as spectacular) system with a 252 and non DR 300 to accompany an ex dem NDS.

Would a similar configuration of brain/brawn suit the 252 in the same way as it is suggested the 552 benefits?

Of the two vacant shelves, is one of these a suitable place for the Unitiserve and is one better than another?

I’m sure your system is plenty good enough to respond to careful setup and racking order. I wouldn’t bother putting the Unitiserve on the rack, as it takes up rack space and adds to the complications of cable dressing. I would put it somewhere else altogether, anywhere you can give it a network connection is fine. 

DB,

Thanks for your comments and describing  Dusty's setup above.

Thinking about the key components, I think I have achieved the same result by my setup,  namely:

a) Placing the amp's head unit above the bottom most shelf.
b) Leaving room below the NDS.

As far as the 552 goes, in your system, you've got about 1/2 a standard shelf's spacing above the 500. This is probably the same effect as no spacing above the Nap300's head unit.

Comparing my current setup to the one below, current setup is better.

Old setup:

Brain: NDS/552/space/300 (or) NDS/space/552/space/300.
Brawn: 555/552/300.

This I ascribe to 
a) Moving Nap300's head unit above ground, and placing heavy Nap300 PSU at the bottom.
b) Placing Heavy 555 at the bottom level on brawn side.

Come to think of it - this is much like the statement - Brawn at the bottom, brains above. It also seems asthetically more pleasing.

In fact, that brings me to another plan - use the material used in the statement between brain and brawn in my racks to see if that makes any difference (acrylic  sheets per website) - not sure where to source this...

 Another thought - the difference between fraim lite and fraim - is it just due to physical isolation by adding glass - or is there more to it? Namely electromagnetic isolation too? Not sure glass would actually afford any, but still..

Balls!

and cups, there's an extra decoupling of transverse vibration between the shelf and rack but compression waves are still transmitted though the resonant frequency(s) will be altered by the weight of the glass, it's springiness and the different location where the weight bears on the "wooden" shelf which is itself a different shape comparted to the Lite.

Where are you with plug order, assuming you use a multiblock of some kind?

Amp, preamp, source in that order..

PL on NDS and 552. Tibia on 300. Prefer the PL on the 272.

That’s DBs preference, I’ve never been happy with the result when I’ve tried it and I’ve tried several times as I’ve upgraded. The last time was about 2 months ago and I heard detail I’d never noticed before but returning to the reverse of that order still had the detail but it contributed more to the whole rather than standing out and that whole was more than the sum of its parts.  Just another experiment to try but since you’re in the mood...

Expert?

Best definition I ever came across was: ex = a has been, spurt = a drip under pressure.

Sorry guys, couldn't resist. The two words in the English language guaranteed to provoke me are 'expert' and 'superior'.

[@mention:1566878603909035] - tried it like you suggested - went back to original order .. don't remember  if I could tell much of a difference noe, but something must've made me go back to original plugin order

A subconscious preference? I think that’s quite reasonable, analysing it isn’t the point. Curious though that there isn’t consensus on this.  

MM -

Have close to the same setup:

Superline                        Turntable

552                                   (Empty)

(Empty)                            Turntable PS

NDS                                  300PS

(Empty)                            Supercap

300                                   552PS DR

(Empty)                            555PS DR

Sounds good to me, but am always open to suggestions for improvement.

apparently it seems better to put the ps on an different rack.  But anybody tried to put the 555 ps near the nds or preamp ps near the preamp and compared with the ps on a different rack? is it always better, for sound quality, to have the ps on a different rack?

Darke Bear posted:

Mr Dusty Sox system rebuild was with NDS-2x555PS - 552 - 500 components and he reported that his system 'came alive' when he moved the NDS that was previously sitting atop the two 555PS on the brawn stack over to the top of the brain stack, as I'd suggested he try before I visited.

In short we re-did the system to end-up with:

Top: NDS on std level - std level empty space - 552 on tall level - 500 Head on std level - empty base level

Top: 555PS on Med level - 555PS on Med level - 552PS on std level - std level empty space - 300PS on base level

Both stacks ended-up the same height, which was important to the owner.

What type of shelf the component sits on also impacts the sound of the system and I find not having all standard levels adds a lot more colour and openness to the voicing in the final result.

This had space around all boxes and sound rather good. Not having boxes crammed-close is more important than having the top shelf. The top shelf does ensure at least one side of the box is free, but you achieve very similar with space of larger shelf-spacers or empty shelves.

I always found the 552 worked fine on the second shelf down as long as it had plenty of space from the next item above or below it. Medium shelves sounded best and tall can also work very well, but only one tall level in any stack.

I never found any source of any kind ever sounded right with a transformer box right under it. Space will obviously help, but in a different rack is best.

Then arrange to assist cable-dressing and you are there.

But whatever is decided - as long as you think it sounds good and enjoy it then you have your answer. My suggestions are for those that are not happy they are getting the right level of performance from their investment and are willing to experiment.

DB.

i would like an advice from you:  i removed the 555dr under the nds and placed this ps on a different rack. I found effectively an improvement: more natural sound, better expressed bass...

The 555 ps sits above my nap 300:  do you think i should also put the ps away from the 300dr?

The ps above the 300 has the same negative impact as the ps under ( or above) the nds?   thanks in advance 

MangoMonkey posted:

[@mention:1566878603992423]

Over the years after any change, I've come to the following brain brawn setup -

 LEFT           RIGHT

NDS          555

552          552 PSU

SPACE          300 PSU

300          SPACE

 I've also noticed that the NDS and 552 both like to be on the top - but wasn't quite sure how to solve this without the racks looking too lopsided - with spaces and all the right one would be 6 or 7 tall.- and the left would have two boxes ....

 I tried this yesterday -

LEFT          RIGHT

NAC 552          NDS

NAP 300          SPACE

SPACE          552 PSU

300 PSU          555 PSU

Maybe this is expert level setup. ;-)

I realize it's easier to recommend the brain/brawn split - but maybe the NDS just messes things up for the 552 - and its better off on it's own on the side - and the spacing between the PSU and the head unit takes care of things.

do you think the space between nap 300 and 555 ps is so important than the space between the nds and its 555dr?     it put today my 555dr on another rack, so not above the nds as before.  I found an improvement: more natural sound and bass better expressed.

If you found the improvement you say then you hear things similar to me and I find the power supplies for NAP300/500 are better away from the other boxes at the bottom of the Brawn stack and with space between them and the next box.

The space can be either a larger level height or an empty level. Empty levels - if managed carefully - can be better; you need to leave the empty glass on the shelf and not have multiple empty shelves near each other in the same stack on the same height shelves, as they can interact in a not so good way. But when you get it right they add clarity - when wrong they add rattle and low-level mush, so need to get it right.

I generally use Medium and the occasional tall levels in the stack mix and have only one empty level glass shelf in any single fraim stack.

DB.

Hook posted:

MM -

Have close to the same setup:

Superline                        Turntable

552                                   (Empty)

(Empty)                            Turntable PS

NDS                                  300PS

(Empty)                            Supercap

300                                   552PS DR

(Empty)                            555PS DR

Sounds good to me, but am always open to suggestions for improvement.

Hook,

You should be runnning our space program..

H

Wow - you guys must have bodybuilder's abs - I'll be happy if I never have to shift any of my boxes ever again. Single Isoblue stack as follows:

Xerxes

CDX2

252

Tuner

XPSDR

SCDR

250DR

before you ask - space limited by SWMBO. Lounge not to look like Kennedy Space Centre or some such rubbish.

Darke Bear posted:

If you found the improvement you say then you hear things similar to me and I find the power supplies for NAP300/500 are better away from the other boxes at the bottom of the Brawn stack and with space between them and the next box.

The space can be either a larger level height or an empty level. Empty levels - if managed carefully - can be better; you need to leave the empty glass on the shelf and not have multiple empty shelves near each other in the same stack on the same height shelves, as they can interact in a not so good way. But when you get it right they add clarity - when wrong they add rattle and low-level mush, so need to get it right.

I generally use Medium and the occasional tall levels in the stack mix and have only one empty level glass shelf in any single fraim stack.

DB.

so if i understand you well, you recommend me also to put my 300ps on another rack, or with one shelf space between it and the nap 300.   The only problem is that i will have two empty spaces on my fraimlite, so not very nice looking.....   is the 300ps interfering with the nap 300 as much as the 555dr with nds?

French Rooster posted:

....   is the 300ps interfering with the nap 300 as much as the 555dr with nds?

Everything is a compromise so you choose the best option to fit aesthetics, available space and desired performance - and verify by listening you are happy or not!

The Source is more important to be kept clear of big transformer boxes, then the Pre, then the Power Amp. Both the 300PS and 555PS are relatively noisy and IMO the 300PS  generates even more noise, though of different type, as the 555PS powers digital equipment so will have high-frequency noise.

So keep the NDS clear as first priority from 300PS (farthest away), then 555PS.

These are just suggested principles to aid you, as you will have your own rack puzzle to order to get it the way you like. It seems from what you say you are getting improvements, so just fit it all together and play some music and decide after a while if it pleases or not is what I'd suggest.

Sometimes changes are just different but not better, and sometimes they are definitely better and you will know it after playing some different music over time.

DB.

Darke Bear posted:

French Rooster posted:

....   is the 300ps interfering with the nap 300 as much as the 555dr with nds?

Everything is a compromise so you choose the best option to fit aesthetics, available space and desired performance - and verify by listening you are happy or not!

The Source is more important to be kept clear of big transformer boxes, then the Pre, then the Power Amp. Both the 300PS and 555PS are relatively noisy and IMO the 300PS  generates even more noise, though of different type, as the 555PS powers digital equipment so will have high-frequency noise.

So keep the NDS clear as first priority from 300PS (farthest away), then 555PS.

These are just suggested principles to aid you, as you will have your own rack puzzle to order to get it the way you like. It seems from what you say you are getting improvements, so just fit it all together and play some music and decide after a while if it pleases or not is what I'd suggest.

Sometimes changes are just different but not better, and sometimes they are definitely better and you will know it after playing some different music over time.

DB.

thanks for your support and advices. Before your answer i put the 300 ps on a different rack. I am not sure it changed significantly something, but i will keep all like that now. There is perhaps more clarity.

As you say, the most important was to keep the 555dr away from the nds: it gave the most significative improvements.  I have never believed before that it may change the sound positively, but now i believe.

There is the point where you get enough positive result and declare victory!

DB.

Haim Ronen posted:

Hook posted:

MM -

Have close to the same setup:

Superline                        Turntable

552                                   (Empty)

(Empty)                            Turntable PS

NDS                                  300PS

(Empty)                            Supercap

300                                   552PS DR

(Empty)                            555PS DR

Sounds good to me, but am always open to suggestions for improvement.

Hook,

You should be runnning our space program..

H

Ha!  Must admit that the abundance of green lights does give my smallish listening room a “mission control” feel. 

NASA = Naim Audio Stacking Administration.  

Hope all is well Haim.  Feels like the upper Midwest is in for another long, cold winter.

Hook posted:

Haim Ronen posted:

Hook,

You should be runnning our space program..

H

Ha!  Must admit that the abundance of green lights does give my smallish listening room a “mission control” feel. 

NASA = Naim Audio Stacking Administration.  

Hope all is well Haim.  Feels like the upper Midwest is in for another long, cold winter.

NASA = Naim Audio Stacking Administration.  

Excellent, Hook.

ASTRONAUTS= Audiophiles using empty spaces between components?

We matched the record lows (16 F) for November 10th. The weather had been less predictable than the Trump administration.. The trees are still insisting on keeping their leaves and the very few that drop are green. I am sure that Minnesota is not any warmer.

Have a good warm Sunday,

Haim