New Turntable

There is tendency hereabouts to revere and worship expensive things. I have a Nait1 and Kans, and could be perfectly contented with that along with a basic Rega. Its the music that matters, not how many 555PS's you have bolted onto your NDS. 

And yes, I am naturally cynical when someone asks "1. Linn LP12 Majik $5k or Akurate $10k".  

Get the VPI scout. Then upgrade it later to what ever you want...super scout. Prime. Prime sig... you could even put a Linn or Naim arm on it.

As a kid I used to listen to radio Luxembourg and Radio Caroline on a shortwave radio. I would also tape Top of the Pops through a microphone placed in front of the TV set. Sound Quality?  Nah, it was just about the music. But then I got into hi-fi and found out just how good recorded music could sound....Quad Amps, Kef speakers, Thorens TT, SME arm and the old Shure V15.  My system eventually evolved to a full-house Linn/Naim TT (LP12, Aro, Armageddon, Cirkus, Mana Phase §.) At some point I decided to get into Compact Disc so dipped my toe into the water with a Sony. A CDP player and 40 CDs later I was still grinding my teeth listening to digital so the thing had to go.  Couple of years later I had the urge to try again....this time with a Meridian. More CDs but the same result....lots of subconscious teeth grinding and the inevitable sale of the system.  Finally I bought a Naim CDS and finally I could listen to CDs. I loved the convenience, the lack of faff and the stability of the system and the sound wasn’t a million miles away from what I was used to, which was exactly why I never bonded with my previous attempts at digital. I was already way beyond their sound quality and quite unable to step backwards. And that’s exactly the problem with this hobby. Once you’ve heard true high-end it really isn’t possible to enjoy entry level....because all you’ll ever hear is what’s missing. The sound stage, the finesse, the timbre, the emotion, the refinement, the black silences, the timing, the rhythm. 

I’m now facing exactly the same decision as the OP. I’ve just implemented a new system and find myself with the top shelf of my rack free and a built-in phono stage in my amp so I’m looking at vinyl again. Why? Because this is a hobby....it doesn’t have to make economical sense....it just needs to be pleasurable and fun. But I do know one thing. If I don’t buy a TT that sounds better than my digital set-up, I won’t give it the time of day. Why would I want to sit with an archaic format, spinning records that sound inferior to my super convenient high-end digital system?  No, if I’m going to all the fuss of taking records out of their sleeve, clamping them to a turntable platter and carefully lowering a super delicate diamond into the run-in groove, there better be a big reward and that certainly won’t come from an entry level TT and cheap phono amp set-up. 

Thanks for the comments, which are mainly supportive and useful.

I have tried the new Rega Planner 3 with its Elys 2, but unfortunately, it came no where close to the turntables I mention, nor my Naim streamer with Chord Hugo.

It would seem pointless to purchase the Rega ‘to get back into and try vinyl again’, on the basis that I would want something to exceed the performance level of my digital source - otherwise, why bother .... the vinyl simply wouldn’t get played and this defeats the object.

Having previously owned a Linn LP12 for many years, I was more than happy with the sound and wouldn’t want to invest in a new turntable, which did not match its performance.

If I did, I suspect that the turntable simply wouldn’t get played and it would be a wasted investment .... inevitably leading to wanting to check out the better performance decks - which was the whole point.

You may ask, why not simply go for the Linn again? 

Well .... things have moved on in the last 20 years ...  particularly at the price level I quoted originally. There may be better performance from other manufacturers (e.g. the highly acclaimed VPI Prime) compare to the Linn at that price point.

The Linn would previously have always been my  first choice, but there are now other equally fine decks out there.

I am aware of the care required with vinyl and its inherent clicks and pops ... but that does not concern me. After all, I was playing records well before CDs came along

If I could audition the VPI against the Linn here in NZ, I wouldn’t have needed to post on the forum. I am simply seeking informed guidance from actual users of the decks, who may have had the opportunity to compare etc.

It’s a fine balance between the cost outlay and the performance level, which is why I am considering the decks I mentioned.

Unfortunately, I could not justify the cost of a full Klimax level LP12 - particularly since I have digital sourced too.

I simply want a turntable which matches the performance of my digital and not be disappointed, each time a play a record .... and regret not buying a better turntable in the first place.

Sorry for the lengthy post, but I just wanted to explain the rationale for not wanting to buy an entry level deck to ‘dip my toe in the water’ ... I already know what sound performance level will or won’t satisfy.

So, I go back to my original question/post!

Thank you for those who took the time to add sound and valuable advice and I welcome other such comments.

Blackmorec posted:

As a kid I used to listen to radio Luxembourg and Radio Caroline on a shortwave radio. I would also tape Top of the Pops through a microphone placed in front of the TV set. Sound Quality?  Nah, it was just about the music. But then I got into hi-fi and found out just how good recorded music could sound....Quad Amps, Kef speakers, Thorens TT, SME arm and the old Shure V15.  My system eventually evolved to a full-house Linn/Naim TT (LP12, Aro, Armageddon, Cirkus, Mana Phase §.) At some point I decided to get into Compact Disc so dipped my toe into the water with a Sony. A CDP player and 40 CDs later I was still grinding my teeth listening to digital so the thing had to go.  Couple of years later I had the urge to try again....this time with a Meridian. More CDs but the same result....lots of subconscious teeth grinding and the inevitable sale of the system.  Finally I bought a Naim CDS and finally I could listen to CDs. I loved the convenience, the lack of faff and the stability of the system and the sound wasn’t a million miles away from what I was used to, which was exactly why I never bonded with my previous attempts at digital. I was already way beyond their sound quality and quite unable to step backwards. And that’s exactly the problem with this hobby. Once you’ve heard true high-end it really isn’t possible to enjoy entry level....because all you’ll ever hear is what’s missing. The sound stage, the finesse, the timbre, the emotion, the refinement, the black silences, the timing, the rhythm. 

I’m now facing exactly the same decision as the OP. I’ve just implemented a new system and find myself with the top shelf of my rack free and a built-in phono stage in my amp so I’m looking at vinyl again. Why? Because this is a hobby....it doesn’t have to make economical sense....it just needs to be pleasurable and fun. But I do know one thing. If I don’t buy a TT that sounds better than my digital set-up, I won’t give it the time of day. Why would I want to sit with an archaic format, spinning records that sound inferior to my super convenient high-end digital system?  No, if I’m going to all the fuss of taking records out of their sleeve, clamping them to a turntable platter and carefully lowering a super delicate diamond into the run-in groove, there better be a big reward and that certainly won’t come from an entry level TT and cheap phono amp set-up. 

Fantastic post ... you have hit the nail on the head.

Your experience echoes that of mine.

As has been said get a used basic LP12 from a decent dealer and go from there.

When I went back into vinyl I temporarily had a Rega P3 with Rega Phonostage on home trial and was surprised how in so many ways it did things - groove, swing - which my thenCDX2/XPS couldn’t compete.  

Hi There Mr Frog

There's a mint Rega RP10 that keeps coming up locally for a shade under $5k which might be a good toe in the water with an Apheta2. 

I was recently rather impressed with an RP8/Apheta 2 demo with a Aria/Supernait it sounded better to me than a 272/200 playing flac, an experience that might be worthy of separate post.

Holmes posted:

Hi There Mr Frog

I was recently rather impressed with an RP8/Apheta 2 demo with a Aria/Supernait it sounded better to me than a 272/200 playing flac, an experience that might be worthy of separate post.

I have a vpi scoutmaster (with sds and flywheel) which is as good as and sounds similar to the prime (i heard both). I highly recommend this player and the tonearm. Sounds great, easy use, Not so sensible with adjustment, and the opportunity to change the cart very simple is great. Match in heaven with koetsu-cartridge! Christoph 

You cannot under estimate the investment a decent vinyl set can take and it isn't just about money.  Getting the right set up for you can take a lot of time and if you do not have the money to walk into shop and buy a top notch record player with all the support that entails it can be a bit risky.  I was very lucky because although I had to buy used I bought my set up from other enthusiasts who had taken good care of their equipment and who were only looking to recoup some of their investment instead of making a profit.  

If you do go down the used route then a local expert is invaluable I'm very lucky as I live in Brighton and the Audio T shop here has an excellent service centre with very, very knowledgeable staff who can really look after you. But having said all that if it where me I would invest that money in the highest spec used LP12 I could afford from an expert as that deck has a real synergy with Naim that goes back decades.

I would also echo the sentiments above there is no value in buying a Rega RP1 and a Rega Fono Mini and expecting it to sound better than a £4,000 Naim digital source like a CDX or an NDX just because it is a record player there is no magic at work it will only sound better of you invest the right amount of time and money.

Bob the Builder posted:

I would also echo the sentiments above there is no value in buying a Rega RP1 and a Rega Fono Mini and expecting it to sound better than a £4,000 Naim digital source like a CDX or an NDX just because it is a record player there is no magic at work it will only sound better of you invest the right amount of time and money.

Nice post by Bob and I would also add that for those looking to enter the vinyl realm with exclusively new LPs the experience may fall short of expectations, In your case Mr Frog, since you have a collection of vintage vinyl, those LPs (assuming in good condition) are worthy of gear commensurate with your digital side, otherwise you may be let down (as you've indicated). I don't have experience with LP12s and there is some commitment to maintenance via a dealer associated with them. Rega decks are a good alternative as they're pretty much set and forget. My only caveat would be to not necessarily get tied to a Rega cart. I've found cheaper carts that readily outperform those from Rega on their decks. Any dealer ought to have such cart options on hand. In short, it's as much about the cart as the deck, and be sure to demo with vintage vinyl as opposed to strictly recent pressings.

The thread Best TT? earlier this year may be worth checking out for other possibilities, and some comparative info.

We really must nail this myth that a Linn LP12 has this golden synergy with Naim.  It wasn’t true in the 80s and isn’t now.   Of course it remains an excellent deck albeit completely different to its 70/80s forbears.   But to all the disciples out there how many have conducted a meaningful comparison in recent years against the opposition?

I did a mistake of buying a mid level turntable, just sat there after couple of lps, now I got a better beast that can compete with 272 streamer I listen more and more

i am not a LP12 fan at all, it is overpriced and fussy with millions of upgrades, there are many far better alternatives for the money they are asking, it is a British nostalgia, it is a Harley Davidson of turntables, I prefer a BMW, no need for million accessories, rides far better, looks good ( well Harley looks better )

so brands like transrotor, dr fieckert, VPI, Rega, Kronos offer good alternatives in all price range

The Strat (Fender) posted:

We really must nail this myth that a Linn LP12 has this golden synergy with Naim.  It wasn’t true in the 80s and isn’t now.   Of course it remains an excellent deck albeit completely different to its 70/80s forbears.   But to all the disciples out there how many have conducted a meaningful comparison in recent years against the opposition?

Good point Lindsay.

Yes, okay, I confess.  I'm a fan of the Linn LP12, having owned 2 of them over the years.  Yet I preferred the Roksan Xerxes 20+ (at equivalent cost, an important consideration with versions of the LP12) when I made a back-to-back comparison using the same cartridge and Naim system. 

A few years later the new baby Vertere turntable & arm sounded musically more rewarding to these cloth ears than my then top spec Xerxes.

The Well Tempered Versalex somehow manages to make music in a far more beguiling way than I would have thought possible, judging by looks alone.  Yes, I rather like what it does, though not to the extent (or cost) of a high spec Xerxes or Vertere.

Finally, if you have the right support for it, the Rega 10 with Alpheta 2 (or even Aphaleon) represents tremendous value for money and plays captivating, proper music. Can it compare with an equivalently priced new LP12?  No, it sounded better than that to me.

Have I actually heard these decks?  Ummm, guilty m'Lord.

p.s. I still like the LP12 in most of its guises though!

Best regards, FT

Foot tapper posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

We really must nail this myth that a Linn LP12 has this golden synergy with Naim.  It wasn’t true in the 80s and isn’t now.   Of course it remains an excellent deck albeit completely different to its 70/80s forbears.   But to all the disciples out there how many have conducted a meaningful comparison in recent years against the opposition?

Good point Lindsay.

Yes, okay, I confess.  I'm a fan of the Linn LP12, having owned 2 of them over the years.  Yet I preferred the Roksan Xerxes 20+ (at equivalent cost, an important consideration with versions of the LP12) when I made a back-to-back comparison using the same cartridge and Naim system. 

A few years later the new baby Vertere turntable & arm sounded musically more rewarding to these cloth ears than my then top spec Xerxes.

The Well Tempered Versalex somehow manages to make music in a far more beguiling way than I would have thought possible, judging by looks alone.  Yes, I rather like what it does, though not to the extent (or cost) of a high spec Xerxes or Vertere.

Finally, if you have the right support for it, the Rega 10 with Alpheta 2 (or even Aphaleon) represents tremendous value for money and plays captivating, proper music. Can it compare with an equivalently priced new LP12?  No, it sounded better than that to me.

Have I actually heard these decks?  Ummm, guilty m'Lord.

p.s. I still like the LP12 in most of its guises though!

Best regards, FT

I fully agree with Foot Taper and Lindsay. I have the RP10/Aphelion/Aria setup with SL RCA to DIN  (full SL in fact) and it’s vinyl heaven for me. Whoever says vinyl is second rate to CD or other digital sources just hasn’t heard it at its best.

Cracks and pops don’t get noticed when the setup is spot on. Bad timing makes surface imperfections much more noticeable so get an RCM, but equally double the spacing between Power Supplies and brain boxes and all your sources will sound much more amazing because the timing becomes spot on.

I have been playing Clannad, Cream and Mike Oldfield on this wet day in the UK. These sounded really good before, but now the timing is prefect they sound transformed to another level and I wonder whether I am listening to the same music.

I have lots of CDs as well but vinyl is still magical. It has taken me 23 months to get my system to where it now is.

I wish Mr Frog well with his return to vinyl. He will not be disappointed with a top Rega system (even RP8). It leaves money to spend on other parts of the system and time to get the Naim setup right without worrying about calling out the specialist LP12 dealer.

I have a Thoren TD 124 Mk 2 with the RP8 arm and Dynavector DV10x5 as well which was restored and replinthed by Loricraft, and despite the price difference for the cartridges it is really good and a tenth of the price of the Aphelion. I can’t comment on the comparison between Rega and others cartridges.

Phil

Just reading with interest. I'd looove to get back into vinyl. You know what I miss? Listening to an album in its entirety.

Clemenza posted:

Just reading with interest. I'd looove to get back into vinyl. You know what I miss? Listening to an album in its entirety.

Except for, of course, having to stop halfway through, to turn it over! 

Sorry, couldn't help myself. 

Clemenza posted:

Just reading with interest. I'd looove to get back into vinyl. You know what I miss? Listening to an album in its entirety.

Besides listening to an album in its entirety, those with digital/streaming will have the health benefit of the extra exercise. It seems to passive my vivoactive HR watch!

Enjoy the return to vinyl!

Phil

Clemenza posted:

Just reading with interest. I'd looove to get back into vinyl. You know what I miss? Listening to an album in its entirety.

There's nothing to stop you listening to an album all the way through when playing from a digital source. I haven't lost that habit. I scarcely ever play odd tracks and don't have any playlists either on my NDS or iPhone. 

Clive B posted:

Clemenza posted:

Just reading with interest. I'd looove to get back into vinyl. You know what I miss? Listening to an album in its entirety.

There's nothing to stop you listening to an album all the way through when playing from a digital source. I haven't lost that habit. I scarcely ever play odd tracks and don't have any playlists either on my NDS or iPhone. 

I agree with you totally Clive, I always prefer listening to albums in their entirety for a whole variety of reasons, streaming never changed that habit, strangely it probably reinforced it. 

Stevee_S posted:

Clive B posted:

Clemenza posted:

Just reading with interest. I'd looove to get back into vinyl. You know what I miss? Listening to an album in its entirety.

There's nothing to stop you listening to an album all the way through when playing from a digital source. I haven't lost that habit. I scarcely ever play odd tracks and don't have any playlists either on my NDS or iPhone. 

I agree with you totally Clive, I always prefer listening to albums in their entirety for a whole variety of reasons, streaming never changed that habit, strangely it probably reinforced it. 

Me too, if anything vinyl is the medium where I’m most likely to only play half an album, that moment when the first side makes you think of something else and you change album instead of turning over. But pretty much every time I play the album through on all media.

dave marshall posted:

Clemenza posted:

Just reading with interest. I'd looove to get back into vinyl. You know what I miss? Listening to an album in its entirety.

Except for, of course, having to stop halfway through, to turn it over! 

Sorry, couldn't help myself. 

Ha! True that, but I'm pretty energetic, I don't think I'll mind bouncing up and giving it a flip.

Clive B posted:

Clemenza posted:

Just reading with interest. I'd looove to get back into vinyl. You know what I miss? Listening to an album in its entirety.

There's nothing to stop you listening to an album all the way through when playing from a digital source. I haven't lost that habit. I scarcely ever play odd tracks and don't have any playlists either on my NDS or iPhone. 

True Clive, it's a bad habit of mine born of instant gratification. Before I left vinyl I found that when I loved the whole album I'd buy it on vinyl and would listen to it in its entirety fairly often, but over the last ten years or so with digital I added individual songs instead of whole albums. I definitely tended to do that with albums that had one or two greats songs on it and the rest was lackluster and then it became a habit to just add tracks one by one. Remember when a CD was $16USD and you ended up liking just one or two songs on the disc? 

I most often liked albums of live recordings best because they rendered a full performance. I do find that, even in digital, when I buy and play live albums, I still buy and play them in their entirety.