Starting a longish journey. Somewhat inspired by the recent offering at the Warsaw Audioshow 2017. A highlight of a show for me was a demo of Hegel boxes powering a set of rather impressive Trenner & Friedl 'Taliesin' speakers. That was just pure music - who cares about the boxes if they produce such magic They only have one small 'problem' - a pair retails for nearly EUR 80k..
Back to reality....
First set arrived home today, delivered and set up by my long-suffering dealer. I suspect he will be making several trips with various boxes over the next months...
First in the line of fire.. Monitor Audio Platinum 300II - they had some rave reviews and I'm partial to Monitor Audio offerings (currently using MA Gold 300s).
First impressions..... hmmm.... probably not helped by a fact that the local distributor delivered a demo pair, which I suspect was never really used. So again - a home demo on un-run speakers. Painful....
My wife just looked at me, shrugged her shoulders and said - 'they are not run in, they sound horrible, and once one has heard Taliesins nothing sounds good...' One thing must be said though - an absolutely superb finish and they look stunning in piano black, with fronts covered in black leather.
Partnering electronics: NDX + 555PS, SN2 + HiCap DR + NAP 250 DR, SuperLumina full loom. I know, I know - SN2 as a pre is holding me back, NDX is rubbish without a Hugo, etc, etc. But it is what it is at the moment
So is there a question in this post? Not really... just a a bit of Friday-evening-frustration sharing with my fellow Forum friends.
To quote one forum member - "Enjoy The Music - The Why!"
but you also say that the 282/250.2 is pretty close to the SN2 ?
And you said that amplifiers can no longer be improved and only cables are capable of being improved.
Posted on: 27 November 2017 by analogmusic
I never said that... that's stretching it. Of course NAP 500 is better than 300 is better than 250. That hierarchy remains.
But even Naim did concede for their statement amp, they needed better cables than NACA5.
What I did say is that cables are a far weaker link than electronics. I did put my money where my mouth is, and rather than upgrade to a Hugo 2 from my Chord Mojo, I chose to buy some entry level affordable Vertere cables, and I'm delighted with the DFI cables. No further temptation to upgrade.
Anyway - I would agree with you with Lavender, and NACA5 are really very good cables.
Posted on: 27 November 2017 by badlands
analogmusic posted:
but you also say that the 282/250.2 is pretty close to the SN2 ?
Yes a SN2 with a SCDR is VERY close to that combo, believe it or not, I honestly don't care, my money my ears! I did the demo in my home, you didn't!
Different strokes and all that!!!!
Posted on: 27 November 2017 by badlands
analogmusic posted:
I never said that... that's stretching it.
What I did say is that cables are a far weaker link than electronics. I did put my money where my mouth is, and rather than upgrade to a Hugo 2 from my Chord Mojo, I chose to buy some entry level affordable Vertere cables, and I'm delighted with the DFI cables. No further temptation to upgrade.
Anyway - I would agree with you with Lavender, and NACA5 are really very good cables.
No, that's not what you said, I stand by my reply!!!!
Posted on: 27 November 2017 by analogmusic
you are misquoting me badlands. As I said rather than spend money on upgrading from Mojo to Hugo2, I spent little money on Vertere cables, and am delighted with the outcome. That is what I meant.
So yes I stand by what I also said which is cables hold back performance, and I would rather upgrade a source to preamp cable than upgrade a source or amplifier.
Anyway can we get back on track to this thread. Let's not spoil Adam's fun
It may be difficult to accept this - but according to Vertere, electronics are as good as they can possibly be now, and the weaknesses are the cables.... and for what I hear in their cables, they got a very convincing and compelling product.
Posted on: 27 November 2017 by badlands
OK, who is being misquoted here??????????????
Posted on: 27 November 2017 by badlands
analogmusic posted:
I never said that... that's stretching it. Of course NAP 500 is better than 300 is better than 250. That hierarchy remains.
But even Naim did concede for their statement amp, they needed better cables than NACA5.
What I did say is that cables are a far weaker link than electronics. I did put my money where my mouth is, and rather than upgrade to a Hugo 2 from my Chord Mojo, I chose to buy some entry level affordable Vertere cables, and I'm delighted with the DFI cables. No further temptation to upgrade.
Anyway - I would agree with you with Lavender, and NACA5 are really very good cables.
AGAIN................. You're turning this thread into a cable comparison thread, OK we get it, you're a cable connoisseur, but for goodness sakes, please give it a rest!!!!!!
Posted on: 27 November 2017 by spurrier sucks
I have Contiur C20 at the end of a 250DR and love the combo. I've considered C30 but really no reason to upgrade. To suggest a 300 or 500 is needed to drive the new Contours is taking it to an extreme. A SN2 will power Confidence C4. Some of the recommendations on this forum for amps to drive speakers is borderline insane at times. That said if you have the cash I'm sure a 500DR will do a fabulous job also.
Posted on: 27 November 2017 by badlands
Never said that the 300 or 500 is needed to drive the Contour line!! When you listen to the Contour line of speakers being driven by the different Naim amplifiers, their performance is enhanced GREATLY with the higher spec amps, and you hear what the speakers are capable of, deal with it!!
Posted on: 27 November 2017 by analogmusic
so what's the problem badlands - Vertere say they cannot go and create electronics that can beat what is already out there - for instance from Naim, but they do see a gap in the market for improving cables?
Posted on: 27 November 2017 by analogmusic
badlands posted:
Never said that the 300 or 500 is needed to drive the Contour line!! When you listen to the Contour line of speakers being driven by the different Naim amplifiers, their performance is enhanced GREATLY with the higher spec amps, and you hear what the speakers are capable of, deal with it!!
yes but that is true for any speaker, Ovator, Neat, Kudos, so why this generalization applied for Dynaudio only?
That is true for NSATs also.
Anyway for Adam
This weekend I heard also Uniti atom with Focal Kanta - wow, that was some combination
Bass, drive, musicality, everything really.
Look into Focal Kanta also if possible.
Posted on: 27 November 2017 by badlands
analogmusic posted:
so what's the problem badlands - Vertere say they cannot go and create electronics that can beat what is already out there - for instance from Naim, but they do see a gap in the market for improving cables?
I already proved what you said, and I didn't misquote you. Own up to it!!!!!!
Posted on: 27 November 2017 by No quarter
badlands posted:
Never said that the 300 or 500 is needed to drive the Contour line!! When you listen to the Contour line of speakers being driven by the different Naim amplifiers, their performance is enhanced GREATLY with the higher spec amps, and you hear what the speakers are capable of, deal with it!!
I completely agree with you badlands...I used to own(For 2 years) the confidence C1 mk11’s,and used them in home theatre with 350 watt/channel Cary audio 200.2 amp.That amp drove them no problem,but when I decided to get a floor stand Speakers for home theatre,I tried the C1’s driven off my SN2,that I had at the time for 2 channel only.It worked ok,but nowhere near as good as the 350 watt Cary amp with them.The bass lost control when I turned it up,it was obvious that they needed more power.
Posted on: 27 November 2017 by joerand
badlands and analogmusic,
You don't, by any chance, happen to be married with separate listening rooms? Certainly sounds like it
Posted on: 27 November 2017 by badlands
joerand posted:
badlands and analogmusic,
You don't, by any chance, happen to be married with separate listening rooms? Certainly sounds like it
How does that saying go.............? People living in glass houses...............
Posted on: 27 November 2017 by Adam Zielinski
So essentially, juding by this nice distraction I will avoid Dynudio speakers
Posted on: 28 November 2017 by analogmusic
Well it’s your decision
im delighted with my dynaudio speakers
I think the contour 30 might be better price to performance ratio, nothing to do with the contour 60 being too much of a load for a NAP250
Posted on: 28 November 2017 by Adam Zielinski
analogmusic posted:
Well it’s your decision
im delighted with my dynaudio speakers
I think the contour 30 might be better price to performance ratio, nothing to do with the contour 60 being too much of a load for a NAP250
Of course it is - especially after such a display of ‘advice’ exchange on this page, one can seriously start to doubt the value of it.
This thread is all about sharing my disappointment / expectations that come from auditioning speakers. Most of my Forum friends chipped in with very good recommendations and very useful advice. I've learned a lot, for which I'm grateful.
However reading an exchange on whether this amp is up scratch or those cables are good or not, makes me wonder why this exchange even started. That's an exchange I'd rather not read and I feel it is a detraction from the thread rather than a valuable addition. So please gentlemen - restrain your tempers and please focus on the topic.
Posted on: 28 November 2017 by No quarter
Sorry Adam for the sidetrack,but I consider the C1 to be Dynaudio’s toughest speaker to drive,the newer Contours are probably a much easier load.Also I did demo a pair of C1’s after I switched from SN2 ,to my current 250 DR,and it handled them much better.The real point is,that the more power they get,the better they sound,which goes for any speaker really.
Posted on: 28 November 2017 by Innocent Bystander
Adam Zielinski posted:
The living room is where the speakers are being auditioned. It’s much larger than my music room (40 sqm vs 18 sqm) so it can benefit from some large boxes.
Nice size room, which prompts a couple of thoughts:
i note your comment in an earlier post re utilitarian styling of ATC: I recognise that, though some models Are more domesticated in appearance than others, with some of the big ones now even having versions with slightly curved sides (check out 'special editions'). Models from SCM40 upwards have ATC's glorious dome midrange unit which is "to die for". The big models (SCM100 or even 150) might not seem oversize in a room the size of yours, and pricewise seem rather a bargain (perhaps because they have spent less on appearance?). They also have the active option. Much on some recent threads here.
Other than that midrange unit I haven't heard ATCs myself, however I have heard PMCs as suggested by someone else. To me the current model of choice is the MB2, which has a midrange unit that is a clone of the ATC (they used to use the ATC unit), and (to me) superb presentation - however new they are quite pricey (£18.5k list price in UK). If you wanted diminutive looking floorstanders the Fact 12 do amazingly well, though I don't know how well they would fill your room - depends on your listening distance and preferred sound levels.
Posted on: 28 November 2017 by Adam Zielinski
No quarter posted:
Sorry Adam for the sidetrack,but I consider the C1 to be Dynaudio’s toughest speaker to drive,the newer Contours are probably a much easier load.Also I did demo a pair of C1’s after I switched from SN2 ,to my current 250 DR,and it handled them much better.The real point is,that the more power they get,the better they sound,which goes for any speaker really.
Good point - thanks!
Posted on: 28 November 2017 by analogmusic
NQ, Adam doesn't want to know about Dynaudio anymore.
That's ok, who would want to pursue this after reading that the contour 60 needs a NAP 500 DR to get the most of it.
Posted on: 28 November 2017 by analogmusic
and old post... might be interesting... and Norman has a PHD in loudspeaker design.....
It seems to me that there is a common misconception about Dynaudio loudspeakers in general, in that they are not difficult to drive as is often suggested. The nominal impedance of Dynaudio loudspeakers is indeed 4 ohms whilst many makers have a more conventional 8 ohms. But the key to understanding this though is the word nominal, as the actual impedance presented to the amplifier will change with frequency. Dynaudio loudspeakers vary very little from their 4-ohm load over the full range of frequencies whilst other manufactures can at some frequencies go down as low as 2 ohms and as high as 16 ohms.
I suspect that the confusion arises as result when better Naim poweramps are connected that the qualities of the better Poweramp is revealed. I have tried the Special 25’s on everything from a Nait5i, NAC552/500 & the amplifier they were designed on (Dynaudio Arbiter) and much else in-between, the results were the differences between those amplifiers and not a reflection upon the complexity, or in Dynaudio’s case the lack of the complexity of the load.
As an interesting aside Naim poweramps often derive their model numbers from the output measured in Watts RMS into a 4-ohm load.
Hope you find that helpful
Regards,
Norman Partner – Ultimate Home Entertainment Solutions
Posted on: 28 November 2017 by Timo
Adam, don't let a silly argument (sorry guys, and don't shoot the messenger) prevent you from trying out some great speakers. Where the budget allows, I would certainly recommend giving the new Contour range a try -- very transparent, clean sound, and also some serious gravitas. I only heard the C30, and I would assume more authorative sound with the C60. If my recollection is correct, at the Acoustica show in Chester, the C30 were driven by a 300DR -- source NDS/555DR, sorry can't remember the preamp, but probably 252/Supercap. Quite a few Forum members attended the Chester show, so maybe someone else can recall the full set-up...
