ATC SCM40 Active or Not

One non-trivial hitch to consider with the active speakers; plugging them into power. I found no information on ATC's site as to the power cords or their length. Depending on the room configuration (dedicated spur, location of outlets) it could become a factor, even if only unsightly, but I suppose that can always be dealt with by a sparky if the actives sound good enough.

FWIW - I listened to the passive 19s last weekend at a dealer (272 into bare SN2). Still waiting months for them to get the passive 40s in stock for a home demo. Before I heard the 19s I listened to Devore Gibbon Super 8s. In comparison the 19s were more analytical and refined, but for my ears lacked bottom-end body. The Devores had a greater bass presence (still tight) and while not being far behind for resolution, presented greater top-to-bottom tonal balance. Took the Devores home hoping they'd be the end of my speaker upgrade quest, but despite their high musicality, just not enough bass heft to fill my semi-open 14x16 ft room. Has me wondering now as to whether the passive 40s, even with their additional bass driver, will provide enough bass in my room. Time will tell and I'm at the mercy of the lone ATC dealer in my region to get the 40s home, now promised to arrive early next year.

One other thought occurs to me here. With a commitment to go with fully-integrated active speakers, at what point do you begin building a system around the speakers? You throw amplification out of the equation. Does the pre-amp become the largest variable in the system sound? Sources? Or the active speakers themselves? Does it make sense to go with a ATC pre-amp to optimize the system balance?

Foxman50 posted:

johnG posted:

Foxman thanks for the details - much appreciated and I will certainly have a look at it.

Post your thoughts once you've tried, if you would.

Yes certainly although it will be into next year before I get to it.

joerand posted:

One other thought occurs to me here. With a commitment to go with fully-integrated active speakers, at what point do you begin building a system around the speakers? You throw amplification out of the equation. Does the pre-amp become the largest variable in the system sound? Sources? Or the active speakers themselves? Does it make sense to go with a ATC pre-amp to optimize the system balance?

Hi Jo, although on paper the 19 and 40 have similar specs, in reality the 40 has quite a bit more bass making them full range speakers. They actually have a little too much bass for my 4m x 4.3m room but careful positioning of speakers and listening chair has helped a lot. The balance of the 40 from top to bottom sounds about perfect to my ears.

i think the 40 actives are quite transparent so your pre and rest of system sound signature should remain intact. I think it makes sense to go with the pre you like, many have commented 272 sounds superb through 40 actives. I do think a dac with built in pre such as 272 makes sense if you only have digital sources. No necessity for atc pre as far a I know.

So, to recap:

It costs about the same to keep the 272+250DR and buy the SCM40 or to sell the 250DR and get the 272+40A. Both alternatives have their pluses and minuses but SQ wise, which one is better?

Starting at which NAP level do the passive 40s sound better than active 40s? 300? 500?

Dan.S posted:

So, to recap:

It costs about the same to keep the 272+250DR and buy the SCM40 or to sell the 250DR and get the 272+40A. Both alternatives have their pluses and minuses but SQ wise, which one is better?

Starting at which NAP level do the passive 40s sound better than active 40s? 300? 500?

Given no price difference I would get the SCM40A actives, I don’t think any level NAP with passive SCM40 will better the SCM40A due to the technically better design characteristics  of the actives. Then again I’ve never listened to any NAP amp with passive SCM40.

Dan.S posted:

So, to recap:

It costs about the same to keep the 272+250DR and buy the SCM40 or to sell the 250DR and get the 272+40A. Both alternatives have their pluses and minuses but SQ wise, which one is better?

Starting at which NAP level do the passive 40s sound better than active 40s? 300? 500?

If ATC offered an active version of a particular model i was interested in then to me, it would be a compromise sticking a passive crossover back into the mix. You really need to find that out for yourself though and see which route you prefer.

Technically better doesn't always translate into musically better.

Halloween Man posted:

Given no price difference I would get the SCM40A actives, I don’t think any level NAP with passive SCM40 will better the SCM40A due to the technically better design characteristics  of the actives. Then again I’ve never listened to any NAP amp with passive SCM40.

Statement level possibly? But seriously, for all practical purposes I would agree with this. Having heard SCM50 passives (£14k) + Vitus Signature power amp (£20k) against SCM100 actives (£18k) I would say the 50 passives weren't really in the same league. Appreciate it's not a like-for-like comparison but as ATC will happily tell you, there's no quality difference between 50's, 100's, 150's etc., just pick one based on the bass extension and max SPL required. My feeling when hearing the above comparison was that the 50's passive were significantly behind to the point that it was unlikely any further improvement in power amps would get them performing better than the 100 actives.

james n posted:

Technically better doesn't always translate into musically better.

True. I can say that musically I did prefer the SCM40A actives over the SCM40 passives paired with the both excellent Bryston 4B³ and ATC P1 power amps. Never listened to 40 passives with any Naim amp.

jon honeyball posted:

For myself, if i was moving forward from my sixpack DBL solution, the items on dem would be:

1) kudos 808 driven actively by my existing amp stack

2) magico driven by 300DR -- why not 500DR? Cos the money difference helps buy bigger/better magicos

3) some form of active ATC, given my love of my little (passive) ATC11's

Not sure I would bother with anything else, to be honest.

jon

Yes, Naim no  longer manufacturers speakers.

Active Ovators $$$$$$

If you're lucky, DBLs, SL2s, maybe Briks!

In an ongoing thread, a gentleman got lucky, found a Brand new pair of SBLs, with crossovers.

Of course, he should utilize his 52, and go Active, but that's his call!

And as Jon Clearly States, If he was moving forward, from Naim's Iconic DBLs, those would be his choices.

Don't expect to see his thread anytime in the near future!

But a valid point, that's a lot of cash for Brand new Speaker Technology, to disregard the crossover.

Allante93!

PS. The Pioneers 

Peter Walker~ Speakers

Ivon ~ TT > Briks

Julian ~ Amps > DBLs

Hell of a System you got, Jon!

And Mr. tonym!

Hi all,

future owner of a pair of SCM40A (I've placed an order last week).

So this topic is like parmesan cheese on macaroni...

The idea is to coupled them with the 272 "naked" (I'll consider the PS upgrade next year...).

Which kind of termination do you suggest?
RCA to XLR or DIN to XLR?

Thanks!

Marco

joerand posted:

One non-trivial hitch to consider with the active speakers; plugging them into power. I found no information on ATC's site as to the power cords or their length. Depending on the room configuration (dedicated spur, location of outlets) it could become a factor, even if only unsightly, but I suppose that can always be dealt with by a sparky if the actives sound good enough.

Joe

I think the ATCs have IEC sockets.  I do not know how long are the leads supplied by ATC, but it is certainly possible to purchase long "kettle leads" at least in the UK.

I now wonder how long it will be before some owner of the SCM40As tries a pair of Naim Powerlines.  I anticipate the "... better than a pair of box upgrades" post soon

Roger

joerand posted:

One non-trivial hitch to consider with the active speakers; plugging them into power. I found no information on ATC's site as to the power cords or their length. Depending on the room configuration (dedicated spur, location of outlets) it could become a factor, even if only unsightly, but I suppose that can always be dealt with by a sparky if the actives sound good enough.

 

Ignoring dedicated mains supplies to the hifi electronics position, most rooms have several mains supplies dotted around, so that it is not far from anywhere to a mains point. (At least, that is my experience, and I have ensured it when I've wired houses.)

Regarding power leads etc . The info I received from the very un-pushy dealer who demoed me Active 50s was that the ones supplied more than suffice , in fact on inspecting the rear I doubt the Powerline IEC would fit . Personally I would add something like a Powerline Lite or similar as icing on the cake . The thought of reduced connections , fewer boxes and lack of speaker cables is as appealing as the superb sound I heard in an untreated room . 

I use Mark Grant Black Series DSP 2.5 Dual Screened power cables, high quality and good vfm.

Happy Listener posted:

In tech terms, the ATC's don't look up to the minute vis drivers* and the detailing which seems to go in to say a Kudos product, plus the amps appear to be 'on board' (which is far from ideal) and how are they supported/service arrangements/can they be upgraded, et al. I'm sure many of us find the speakers market in general very challenging, not helped by some dealers who will happily sell Naim's 500 range but often have a very limited offering of speakers to go alongside - and then there's our unique listening rooms. Compromise abounds.

 

Not sure what "up to the minute" looks mean in the context of drive units? I became aware of ATC in the early days, when they had set out to produce excellent  no-compromise drivers, and that they did.  Taking the  sublime dome midrange driver as an example (SM75-150), it was first produced in the mid 1970s - and whilst it has had a few refinements I believe has changed little in 40 years. It was reported in the 1970s as being a superb driver - so why replace it? ATC are clearly not interested in fashion - and indeed over the years their prime market has been critical pro use, initially only making drivers not complete loudspeakers, an d even with complete loudspeakers the domestic side I believe has been very much of a sideline, or at least that is the impression I have had, with only the relatively recent introduction of the small models and the greater domestication in appeatance of the bigger ones marking their recognition of the sales potential in this area.

Their drivers are not cheap - last I saw the SM75-150 cost not far short of £500 each (standard version - they also do a high power higher efficiency vrsion), but for good reason. And yet the complete loudspeakers do seem remarkably cheap compared to some, though if compared to, say, PMC that is because the latter have a much more complicated transmission line cabinet design). However, the drivers do have replaceable diaphragms/voice coils, reflecting their pro heritage (the bass and mid anyway - I don't know about their tweeters) 

Halloween Man posted:

I use Mark Grant Black Series DSP 2.5 Dual Screened power cables, high quality and good vfm.

They look perfect, Marks cables are always very well made IME . 

Peakman posted:

I now wonder how long it will be before some owner of the SCM40As tries a pair of Naim Powerlines.  I anticipate the "... better than a pair of box upgrades" post soon

Roger, I had that very same thought in mind when I posted. You're limited to 2-m distance to the outlet with PLs, but I don't doubt they would make an audible difference. Better or not? That would be in the ear of the listener. Given the "savings" on the no longer needed amp, the cost of two PLs could be justified if they worked.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Ignoring dedicated mains supplies to the hifi electronics position, most rooms have several mains supplies dotted around, so that it is not far from anywhere to a mains point. (At least, that is my experience, and I have ensured it when I've wired houses.)

Right IB. I don't question lack of a convenient outlet to power the actives. The bigger question for someone like me that has their rack on the wall opposite the speakers (supposing I had run dedicated mains to that location) is wouldn't I want the actives to tap into the dedicated circuit rather than the random household circuitry?

I think it's reasonable to assume that the benefits of a dedicated circuit on the usual gear boxes would be equally important to a speaker with integrated amplification.

The big question is whether ATCs inbuilt amps are immune to imperfections in the mains.

All this talk of dedicated mains and posh kettle leads can bring on audioneurosis. I have mine on regular shared mains circuit and enjoy momentary bliss each day 

a.diabelli posted:

Hi all,

future owner of a pair of SCM40A (I've placed an order last week).

So this topic is like parmesan cheese on macaroni...

The idea is to coupled them with the 272 "naked" (I'll consider the PS upgrade next year...).

Which kind of termination do you suggest?
RCA to XLR or DIN to XLR?

Thanks!

Marco

Congrats Marco, enjoy! I believe Naim favour din so perhaps din to XLR is best. If you decide RCA then take a look at my profile for wiring, this gets the best out of RCA to XLR for noise rejection. I used Redco website in the states to make cable up for me.

Innocent Bystander posted:

The big question is whether ATCs inbuilt amps are immune to imperfections in the mains.

I suspect they're not and I'm sure you could go OTT here with boutique mains cables if that's your bag... 

One thing that would be worth trying is to run the speaker power cables back to a common mains block with the rest of the system, but room layout may preclude this. 

On the other hand, just enjoy them 

Foxman50 posted:

Hi John

Notice you have TQ black speaker cables also, which is what I was using at the time I made the mod. I don't know if you are using the TQ black jumper leads, not that its relevant but annoying you need two sets for the three way terminals on the speakers.

Anyway what I noticed was that the sound changed depending on which terminals I plugged the speaker cables into on the speakers ie if I plugged them into the bass terminals then the bass became better defined, if I plugged into the mid terminals then the mids were better, when I plugged.........you see where i'm going with this.

If you haven't tried it give it a go and see what you think, it sounds completely different depending on the where the speaker cables are plugged into. Surely this should not be the case.

Anyway this got me thinking why should this be and came to the conclusion it can only be either the jumper leads or the binding posts on the speakers. So I opened up the rear panel to have a look and noticed that the internal wiring is terminated on what looks like gold plated push on shoes that connect to nickel plated spades that are connected via a nut on the speaker binding posts. I just thought that's a lot of connections even before the speakers cables are connected.

So firstly I undid all the nuts and removed the spades from the binding posts, then placed them all on one terminal, obviously keeping the positives on one terminal and negatives on the another terminal. So now I could do away with the jumpers and just use the speaker cables, this made a very worth while improvement. However after looking at the speaker terminals I thought they looked cheap and nasty, so looked at alternatives.

I Purchased a set of four WBT-0730.01 Topline Pole Terminal, Gold Plated and WBT flat push-on cable shoes, about £150 in total. The push on shoes were purchased so that I could revert them to stock should this not go well . Opened up the back of the speakers again, cut off the existing shoes from the internal wiring at the binding post end, opened up the holes in the plastic plate slightly, stripped the internal cables back slightly and fitted into the WBT binding posts. What a difference this made I tell you, like new speakers.

Improvements in soundstage, coherence and definition of the speakers was vast, they never sounded disjointed before but now they sound like a single driver. Can honestly say its the best money ive spent on this hobby. £150 and an hour or so to do, selling the two sets of TQ black jumpers will pay for the WBT outlay so its basically a free upgrade.

If nothing else try moving the speaker cables about on the rear and see what you think. Even putting all the internal cabling onto a pair of binding posts made a decent improvement which costs nothing but time, so give it a go if you can.

Apologies Dan, didn't mean to high jack your thread.

 

 

I was very interested in the article you wrote, concerning the ATC SCM40 terminal connections.  I understand what you have done with internal wiring, however, would it be possible to post a external picture of the new terminals fitted. The reason I ask, is that I also own the SCM40’s and have always thought this area one of the weak links in manufacture. Thank you.