Mac Mini Streaming

I am not sure what the requirements of roon are, but I would imagine the last mini with a DVD drive (I think the late 2009), will be a bit weedy and very very second hand.

For my money I would be looking at a 2011/2012 model which is the newer look but with upgradable harddrive and ram, which is not an option on other minis.

Rip on something different or get a USB dvd drive for the mini.

Thanks GARYI and I have just found an old usb dvd drive,  I have been googling myself and I think you are right 2011 - 2012 possibly late 2010 seem to be the best vfm minis.

Bob There's an interesting thread on Head fi forum by a blogger with a good story and a how-to on setting up his preferred specific 2009 model mac mini as a server. It's a bit around the houses, but he gets there in first 10-12 pages and it's not a bad read.   https://www.head-fi.org/thread...obert-hunter.784471/ 

I've bought said 2009 model ($120 NZD) and haven't yet got around to the mods. I also have a series case of "I can't be arsed, I'd rather buy and play records at the moment."

The 2012 i7 Mac Mini is the one to look out for.  You may be able to buy a basic spec version at a reasonable price and if it does suit your needs it is easily upgradable to something that is better than the current Mac Mini.  I have 2 which were bought with a basic spec but I swapped out the hard drives for SSD's and increased the RAM to 16 gb without paying Apple's ridiculously priced upgrades.

Bob the Builder posted:

 ... Number two if I get one with a disc drive can I rip CD's straight on to the Mini's hard drive? ...

Yes. That's exactly what I do - no problems at all.

Prices for the upgradeable mac minis seem to be going up now. I picked up a core i5 with 4Gb of ram and a 500Gb conventional drive last year for reasonable money. It now has a 240Gb ssd boot drive and 500Gb ssd music drive along with 8Gb of ram. I run Asset on this. You can pick up external usb dvd drives pretty cheaply now to allow ripping. I think the 2012 models are definitely the one to go for.

Bob the Builder posted:

 

Number three I have a Chord 2Qute which has an excellent usb input but also has optical and BNC which would be the best? I would ideally not want use another gadget in the chain i.e. a usb>>spdif converter so if the Qute's usb input was the best that would be great.

 

Not a problem as Mac Mini's have optical outputs, try them all and see which sounds best to you. On my set up, Optical sounded best. 

In my setup, I use all 3 options for output - usb, usb to the a usb isolator to spdif, optical - optical sounds best.

Peg posted:

The 2012 i7 Mac Mini is the one to look out for.  You may be able to buy a basic spec version at a reasonable price and if it does suit your needs it is easily upgradable to something that is better than the current Mac Mini.  I have 2 which were bought with a basic spec but I swapped out the hard drives for SSD's and increased the RAM to 16 gb without paying Apple's ridiculously priced upgrades.

Definitely the "late 2012" MM, because it is the last one that is substantially user-upgradeable. Mine is the Core i5 2.5GHz model, which IIRC came with 4GB RAM and a 500GB HDD. In the same way as PEG, I upgraded to 16GB RAM and 2x 1TB SSDs. (Website iFixit gives guidance on how to open up the MM). 

N.B. I don't upsample with Audirvana - I triedt, to the highest bitrate my DAC takes (768KHz), but there were occational glitches (well actiually a single brief one, but that was enough) whereas Dave does it perfectly itself. I don't know whether a more powerful version of MM would handle that process any better is it is desired.

My IOS is "El Capitan" 10.11.6.  I haven't upgraded to the later Sierra IOS because it doesn't support the highest quality "direct mode" in Audirvana (on Audirvana's own forum there is a work-around to re-enable it if you have Sierra or later, though it needs redoing after every IOS version update).

I use the MM headless, using (free) software called VNC control it from any other networked computer, tablet etc. (Audirvana itself can also be controlled using VNC, or Audirvana's own app.).

I use Audirvana v2.6.8, not being interested in the Tidal MQA capability introduced with v3 and also wary of some comments made about change in sound quality. My setup is fully optimised following theAudirvana manual (including Direct Mode - Integer Mode 1, dedicated usb port, sysoptimised). When I used with Hugo I found it had to be RF isolated, and used an inexpensive Gustard U12 to do that, which worked wonders. Into Dave that is not necessary, connected by USB though as recommended by Dave's designer who detected a slight beneficial difference I use an Audioquest USB Regen in between. 2Qute with its ground plane isolation would probably be fine on its electrical inputs. (I understand a number of people consider the 2Qute's sound to be different from Hugo, which is likely due to their different output stages, but that is another subject.)

Mac Mini's optical output is not its best as that still uses the computer's sound card, which is why I use usb output optimised as stated. With the Gustard isolator/converter fed from MM's usb there is an option of both electrical SPDIF and optical (also AES/EBU) to feed the DAC.

I have issues with Audirvana's library handling, but that is a separate subject, as others appear happy and it appears to depend on the metadata and on the user's need re playing. (Happy to go into more if/when that is relevant.)

Omitted to add:

I don't have a CD/DVD drive in my MM (the potential space is taken by the second SSD drive). If you only had a single storage drive e.g. A larger HDD, then It may be that a CD/DVD drive fits.

i usually rip on a seperate computer, and transfer across my network to the MM after completion. Ditto downloads. That leaves the MM to work in dedicated mode, with nothing else potentially impinging on performance if I am playing music at the same time. It is, however, simple to connect an external CD/DVD drive to MM, e.g via USB. If ripping on the same machine is desired.

in case of interest, I found that the MM with suitable UPnP software loaded can be used as a server for its stored files to an external player - before converting to Audirvana as renderer I used MM in that way, with free Serviio software, playing happily on an ND5XS. Effectively a NAS in that mode, it has the benefit of full computer capability if wanted, and is virtually silent (it has a small fan, but inaudible more than a couple of feet away, and of course with SSDs mine was silent in that regard too). 

When not playing music my MM also gets used as a video server using Plex, serving from a networked NAS drive to a networked Apple TV. A slightly odd setup, but it fits with where things are and local connections, and is complementary to its music function as my projector and hifi are in the same room so it is simply a choice of which will be in use.

Although I haven't got a Mac mini yet I have just acquired a Breeze Audio u8 USB - spdif converter which supposed to be at least equal to a Gustard I will try this with my MacBook first and see how that goes. 

One more thing, if you were using Audirvana plus 3, probably the best sound option is to use Audirvana UPnP with DSD 128 (filter set to C 7th order),

imperialline posted:

One more thing, if you were using Audirvana plus 3, probably the best sound option is to use Audirvana UPnP with DSD 128 (filter set to C 7th order),

But Audirvana's strength is its rendering sound quality, which it can feed out throu usb bypassing the Mac's soundcard, direct to a DAC (via an isolator if the DAC doesn't isolate itself from the RF. Using Audirvana as a uPNP player is not having it do the rendering, so no specific advantage over the dozens of others...

Innocent Bystander posted:

imperialline posted:

One more thing, if you were using Audirvana plus 3, probably the best sound option is to use Audirvana UPnP with DSD 128 (filter set to C 7th order),

But Audirvana's strength is its rendering sound quality, which it can feed out throu usb bypassing the Mac's soundcard, direct to a DAC (via an isolator if the DAC doesn't isolate itself from the RF. Using Audirvana as a uPNP player is not having it do the rendering, so no specific advantage over the dozens of others...

It does rendering before sending the music to the network.

imperialline posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

imperialline posted:

One more thing, if you were using Audirvana plus 3, probably the best sound option is to use Audirvana UPnP with DSD 128 (filter set to C 7th order),

But Audirvana's strength is its rendering sound quality, which it can feed out throu usb bypassing the Mac's soundcard, direct to a DAC (via an isolator if the DAC doesn't isolate itself from the RF. Using Audirvana as a uPNP player is not having it do the rendering, so no specific advantage over the dozens of others...

It does rendering before sending the music to the network.

Can you explain, please, because that doesn't make sense to me, as it doesn't fit with my understanding of a UPnP server. Are you saying that it is sent across the network as a digital music stream that feeds straightbinto a DAC? (WHat DACs have network inputs for the digital music stream?) 

Innocent Bystander posted:

imperialline posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

imperialline posted:

One more thing, if you were using Audirvana plus 3, probably the best sound option is to use Audirvana UPnP with DSD 128 (filter set to C 7th order),

But Audirvana's strength is its rendering sound quality, which it can feed out throu usb bypassing the Mac's soundcard, direct to a DAC (via an isolator if the DAC doesn't isolate itself from the RF. Using Audirvana as a uPNP player is not having it do the rendering, so no specific advantage over the dozens of others...

It does rendering before sending the music to the network.

Can you explain, please, because that doesn't make sense to me, as it doesn't fit with my understanding of a UPnP server. Are you saying that it is sent across the network as a digital music stream that feeds straightbinto a DAC? (WHat DACs have network inputs for the digital music stream?) 

 

Reflecting, Audirvana might possibly do the first stage unpacking of MQA files and stream the decoded file across a network to a renderer (whether stand-alone like microRendu or a player like NDX etc) - but that is not Audirvana's key strength, and only relevant to anyone willing to ignore the limitations of MQA. Or am I missing something else?

IB, have you ever used the latest Audirvana plus? If you have, you will notice that the UPnP output is just an additional output, just as the built-in, or USB outputs, i.e. nothing special about the UPnP output channel.

Quang Tonthat posted:

IB, have you ever used the latest Audirvana plus? If you have, you will notice that the UPnP output is just an additional output, just as the built-in, or USB outputs, i.e. nothing special about the UPnP output channel.

No, I haven’t changed to v3 (because I am not interested in MQA, the sound quality of 2.6 is great, while there has been a change in v3 that is not necessarily positive, and until the library issues are resolved I do not feel minded to pay more).

I note what you say about UPnP appearing as an output option, but my question to [@mention:1566878603944198] still stands: what exactly does the UPnP output provide, other than possibly having done the MQA first stage unpacking where that is applicable? The suggestion above was that it is a rendered output, which doesn't make sense to me, as it doesn't fit with my understanding of a UPnP server. Is it is sent across the network as a digital music stream that feeds straight into a DAC? (If so, what DACs have network inputs for the digital music stream?) 

I’ve had a look at Audirvana’s description of the UPnP/DLNA output function, and it is clear that in this mode what it is doing is transcoding other formats to .wav, including software decoding of MQA where relevant - so it functioning similarly to other such servers that can transcode, and not rendering. Its strength - and what hitherto has been regarded by many as its major strength - in terms of sound quality as a renderer is thus lost.

It has a use for multi-room play where one room has the rendered output and others UPnP, but otherwise, apart from for those who desire MQA, the choice between it and other software that can serve and transpose [effectively] is primarily down to interface preference.

Innocent Bystander posted:

imperialline posted:

One more thing, if you were using Audirvana plus 3, probably the best sound option is to use Audirvana UPnP with DSD 128 (filter set to C 7th order),

But Audirvana's strength is its rendering sound quality,

{which it can feed out throu usb bypassing the Mac's soundcard, direct to a DAC (via an isolator if the DAC doesn't isolate itself from the RF.}

Using Audirvana as a uPNP player is not having it do the rendering, so no specific advantage over the dozens of others...

On the side line soaking up information.

Bypassing the sound card of the MM, sounds Great, if that is the case.

Being a novice to the World Of Streaming, I don't have a clue!

HCDR>282 ~ Analog Hub

Assuming I purchase a Pre-loved Ndac:

Ndac>282

MM/Audirvana = MMA = Renderer

I have a 4GB 1600 MHz DDR3 SDRAM MM, located in the Office, which I presently use for local (wireless) Streaming.

Airport Extreme >  Family-room Airport Express

Extreme > Rec- Room Express

{Its fine, but a noticeable difference between ripped CDs & Cdx2.}

Cdx2>282

It was bought to my attention, that in order to do Hi-Res Streaming @ 24 bit/192KHz,  one needs at least 8 GB MM.

I don't have a clue!

Hence, my plan of attack:

Hardwire Cat5e Ethernet from office MM/Extreme to Living-room.

Hence, bypassing the sound card of the MM, and a Hardwired System as opposed to wireless!

I'll stop here, probably a lot of errors!

Thanks In Advance!

Allante93!

PS. Note: The ignore button is accessible 24/7 on the Forum!

Just seeking information, that's all!

Allante93 posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

imperialline posted:

One more thing, if you were using Audirvana plus 3, probably the best sound option is to use Audirvana UPnP with DSD 128 (filter set to C 7th order),

But Audirvana's strength is its rendering sound quality,

{which it can feed out throu usb bypassing the Mac's soundcard, direct to a DAC (via an isolator if the DAC doesn't isolate itself from the RF.}

Using Audirvana as a uPNP player is not having it do the rendering, so no specific advantage over the dozens of others...

On the side line soaking up information.

Bypassing the sound card of the MM, sounds Great, if that is the case.

Being a novice to the World Of Streaming, I don't have a clue!

HCDR>282 ~ Analog Hub

Assuming I purchase a Pre-loved Ndac:

Ndac>282

MM/Audirvana = MMA = Renderer

I have a 4GB 1600 MHz DDR3 SDRAM MM, located in the Office, which I presently use for local (wireless) Streaming.

Airport Extreme >  Family-room Airport Express

Extreme > Rec- Room Express

{Its fine, but a noticeable difference between ripped CDs & Cdx2.}

Cdx2>282

It was bought to my attention, that in order to do Hi-Res Streaming @ 24 bit/192KHz,  one needs at least 8 GB MM.

I don't have a clue!

Hence, my plan of attack:

Hardwire Cat5e Ethernet from office MM/Extreme to Living-room.

Hence, bypassing the sound card of the MM, and a Hardwired System as opposed to wireless!

I'll stop here, probably a lot of errors!

Thanks In Advance!

Allante93!

PS. Note: The ignore button is accessible 24/7 on the Forum!

Just seeking information, that's all!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Firstly regarding wiring: hardwire of network from MM to living room is good for playing as you are now, UPnP server on MM like a NAS.

But putting Audirvana on MM and using that way is just using Audiv as an alternative UPnP player: it might be good transcoding to wav if tgat’s What you want  (and if the MM is up to it), but if your present UPnP player can transcode there might not be any benefit.

To use Audiv in its rendering mode and bypassing the MM’s sound card you would need to use the USB output, and connect that to your DAC, preferably via an RF isolator.  USB cable length might make it better to move the MM to the living room - however some RF idolaters also convert to SPDIF or optical, which possibly would be IK with a longer run.

The minimum MM spec for Audirvana is a Core 2 Duo processor and 2GB RAM running IOS 10.9 or later. Your MM probably would work - you can get Audirvana on free trial, so nothing to stop you trying to see what you think.

Set up is best ‘headless’ once installed, with neither monitor nor keyboard. Control would be from some other computer or tablet on the network - I use free software called VNC player, which lets you control anything on the MM (including installing software etc).

Audiv do a control app for iPhones and iPads to control playing - not essential as you can use VNC to play, however the app is better (but is not free for trial). 

Hope  this helps

Innocent Bystander posted:

To use Audiv in its rendering mode and bypassing the MM’s sound card you would need to use the USB output, and connect that to your DAC, preferably via an RF isolator.  USB cable length might make it better to move the MM to the living room - however some RF idolaters also convert to SPDIF or optical, which possibly would be IK with a longer run.

The minimum MM spec for Audirvana is a Core 2 Duo processor and 2GB RAM running IOS 10.9 or later. Your MM probably would work - you can get Audirvana on free trial, so nothing to stop you trying to see what you think.

Set up is best ‘headless’ once installed, with neither monitor nor keyboard. Control would be from some other computer or tablet on the network - I use free software called VNC player, which lets you control anything on the MM (including installing software etc).

Audiv do a control app for iPhones and iPads to control playing - not essential as you can use VNC to play, however the app is better (but is not free for trial). 

Hope  this helps

 

Allante93 posted:

 

OK, it appears I was on the right track, thanks to you and others!

This is my Office 4 GB 1600MNHz MM, with all that cheap noise, connected to it. HP monitor, keyboard, AT&T Modem.

Broadband > Modem > Extreme >MM

So it's only two purchases I need!

1. Pre-loved Ndac ~ $2.0K USD

2. 2nd headless 8 GB MM ~ $ 500

Excuse my terminology, a novice!

But here we go:

Hardwire Cat5e from Airport Extreme to Living-room, and place headless MM next to Fraimlite.

Bypassing MM's soundcard by utilizing an RF isolator Usb > S/pdif. > Ndac.

What am I missing???????

Thanks In Advance!

Allante93!

PS. Trying to ensure that the 2nd Headless MM acting as a Renderer, will do Hi-Res 24 Bit/192 K Hz.

Still a little confused of how & where the Audirvana Plus will fit in.

The Noisy MM, or the Headless MM?

 

 

Allante93 posted:

 

 

Allante93 posted:

 

OK, it appears I was on the right track, thanks to you and others!

This is my Office 4 GB 1600MNHz MM, with all that cheap noise, connected to it. HP monitor, keyboard, AT&T Modem.

Broadband > Modem > Extreme >MM

So it's only two purchases I need!

1. Pre-loved Ndac ~ $2.0K USD

2. 2nd headless 8 GB MM ~ $ 500

Excuse my terminology, a novice!

But here we go:

Hardwire Cat5e from Airport Extreme to Living-room, and place headless MM next to Fraimlite.

Bypassing MM's soundcard by utilizing an RF isolator Usb > S/pdif. > Ndac.

What am I missing???????

Thanks In Advance!

Allante93!

PS. Trying to ensure that the 2nd Headless MM acting as a Renderer, will do Hi-Res 24 Bit/192 K Hz.

Still a little confused of how & where the Audirvana Plus will fit in.

The Noisy MM, or the Headless MM?

 

 

 

Audirvana is rendering software that sits on the MM and outputs the music in a form that can go straight to a DAC (like happens in the first section of an NDX etc before its internal DAC). 

However, as you already have a MM in your office, why not borrow that one  briefly to do a trial, and buy a second one when you are sure it is the way you want to go?

if you go for n-DAC, I don’t think it has a USB input, so you’ll definitely need a converter from USB to SPDIF or optical if you use Audirvana in its best mode.

Bob the Builder posted:

Although I haven't got a Mac mini yet I have just acquired a Breeze Audio u8 USB - spdif converter which supposed to be at least equal to a Gustard I will try this with my MacBook first and see how that goes. 

I tried a USB-SPDIF converter from my Mini to SN, but after it failed, and the replacement failed, I just went back to SPDIF optical. My cloth-ears couldn't tell the difference anyway.

Here is how I did this if its helpful:

MacMini (I used late 2012 server version) with 2 1TB disks.  Ideally you go for SSD.

MacMini is storage plus the player software.  I used Audirvana for a long time, and recently switched to Roon. Audirvana sounds slightly better but Roon sounds very good (and is getting better) and is easier to use and nice library management.  I’ve played with HQ Player integration but have not found it to be that much better vs. the complexity of adding it and you need a lot of power for HQPlayer to be stable.

I upgraded the MacMini with a linear power supply from UpTone Audio which has been great, but this is not necessary and maybe especially if you are not directly linking the MM to a DAC but streaming over your network but not sure.

Ipads /iPhones run Naim app and Roon, plus Pandora as control points or sources for AirPlay streaming.

MacMini is headless, I use Splashtop to control it from our iPads/iPhones  and this allows me to be tech support for my wife if I’m Away from home, VNC may do the same.

MacMini used to be connected to a SuperUniti through USB with a USB-SPDIF converter from Audiophilleo1 with pure power battery option.  This solution sounds terrific and the Audiophilleo islolated all noise from the USB.  Today, I would probably buy a Schiit Eitr as its much less expensive and reviews are very good.  This solution will play up to 24/192, Audiophilleo also has an upgrade version up to 24/384 with higher DSD support.

Recently a Uniti Nova replaced the SuperUniti, so since the Nova is Roon ready I eliminated the need for the USB altogether and stream from MacMini via wireless to the Nova.  This has been working terrifically and sounds really good, an upgrade from the SuperUniti.

Also, since the Nova has Airplay and Chromecast built in, I was able to retire an Airport Express connected via optical to the SU.  Optical

The Nova has NACA5 to GoldenEar Triton 2s.  I am considering the Focal Kanta and GoldenEar Triton Reference or B&Ws to upgrade speakers as the next step on the path of my addiction.

Hope this is helpful, I’ve been doing high res digital now for over 5 years and this is the result of much research, experimentation, and sometimes failure to get it to a very elegant point.

The end result - my wife can use the system to easily stream things like Pandora via AirPlay, we often have extended listening sessions and play “DJ” using Roon with its Tidal integration and our library of high res, plus AAC and other stuff we’ve collected and having Tidal there to find nearly any song to ‘play next’ has been awesome.

Thanks to all on these boards for your help as always!  If anyone has suggestions happy to hear them.