Mac Mini Streaming

Bob

Around five years ago there was a frequent poster to these forums: Guido Fawkes, who did a lot of rather thorough comparisons in the area of streaming from a Mac mini into a Naim system.  I think you might find it valuable to put his name into the search facility and read through some of the threads.  Partly influenced by his findings I ended up with a system not unlike Winky's, although I did use a nDAC rather than the SN1's internal DAC.  So my system read: Mac mini (with SSD drive) -> nDAC/XPS -> SN1/H'Cap.  The Mac mini was connected to the DAC via a glass fibre optical cable.  I think cable quality matters in this application so I used a Wireworld supernova 6.  The Mac mini was run headless (it shared a shelf with the HiCap on the rack) and it was controlled through Apple's remote app.  The music player was iTunes (yes, I know) and I ripped using my laptop straight onto the Mac mini over our network.  One great virtue of this setup was ease of use which you say is important for gaining your partner's acceptance.  However, much to my surprise, I preferred the sound of CDs ripped and played this way to playing them on my CD5XS used as transport into the nDAC.  An optical cable does impose limits on high res tracks you can play but I never found this onerous.  This route may not suit, but it's easy to implement, relatively cheap to try, has the virtue of simplicity, does not require extra boxes and, to my ears, sounds very good.

Roger

Hanover33 posted:

Here is how I did this if its helpful:

MacMini (I used late 2012 server version) with 2 1TB disks.  Ideally you go for SSD.

MacMini is storage plus the player software.  I used Audirvana for a long time, and recently switched to Roon. Audirvana sounds slightly better but Roon sounds very good (and is getting better) and is easier to use and nice library management.  I’ve played with HQ Player integration but have not found it to be that much better vs. the complexity of adding it and you need a lot of power for HQPlayer to be stable.

I upgraded the MacMini with a linear power supply from UpTone Audio which has been great, but this is not necessary and maybe especially if you are not directly linking the MM to a DAC but streaming over your network but not sure.

Ipads /iPhones run Naim app and Roon, plus Pandora as control points or sources for AirPlay streaming.

MacMini is headless, I use Splashtop to control it from our iPads/iPhones  and this allows me to be tech support for my wife if I’m Away from home, VNC may do the same.

MacMini used to be connected to a SuperUniti through USB with a USB-SPDIF converter from Audiophilleo1 with pure power battery option.  This solution sounds terrific and the Audiophilleo islolated all noise from the USB.  Today, I would probably buy a Schiit Eitr as its much less expensive and reviews are very good.  This solution will play up to 24/192, Audiophilleo also has an upgrade version up to 24/384 with higher DSD support.

Recently a Uniti Nova replaced the SuperUniti, so since the Nova is Roon ready I eliminated the need for the USB altogether and stream from MacMini via wireless to the Nova.  This has been working terrifically and sounds really good, an upgrade from the SuperUniti.

Also, since the Nova has Airplay and Chromecast built in, I was able to retire an Airport Express connected via optical to the SU.  Optical

The Nova has NACA5 to GoldenEar Triton 2s.  I am considering the Focal Kanta and GoldenEar Triton Reference or B&Ws to upgrade speakers as the next step on the path of my addiction.

Hope this is helpful, I’ve been doing high res digital now for over 5 years and this is the result of much research, experimentation, and sometimes failure to get it to a very elegant point.

The end result - my wife can use the system to easily stream things like Pandora via AirPlay, we often have extended listening sessions and play “DJ” using Roon with its Tidal integration and our library of high res, plus AAC and other stuff we’ve collected and having Tidal there to find nearly any song to ‘play next’ has been awesome.

Thanks to all on these boards for your help as always!  If anyone has suggestions happy to hear them.

 

So if I'm reading this correctly you've gone from Audirvana as renderer on MM,  to Roon also on MM as renderer (poorer sound quality),  to using the MM as a NAS serving to Nova, using Nova's inbuilt renderer - with the benefit of ease of use (sound quality better than it was with Roon on MM to SU).

You refer to eliminating USB, as if that is a positive, but instead you stream across a network, potentially a negative, and wifi in particular, that the majority of people consider to be a bad idea. Out of curiosity, are you able to clarify why do you consider using wifi network streaming to be better than sending a rendered music stream from USB to DAC?  Or is it just that you feel Nova fed from a NAS is a better overall solution than SU fed from a renderer? (And if so have you tried a rendered signal to Nova's digital input?)

Peakman posted:

Bob

Around five years ago there was a frequent poster to these forums: Guido Fawkes, who did a lot of rather thorough comparisons in the area of streaming from a Mac mini into a Naim system.  I think you might find it valuable to put his name into the search facility and read through some of the threads.  Partly influenced by his findings I ended up with a system not unlike Winky's, although I did use a nDAC rather than the SN1's internal DAC.  So my system read: Mac mini (with SSD drive) -> nDAC/XPS -> SN1/H'Cap.  The Mac mini was connected to the DAC via a glass fibre optical cable.  I think cable quality matters in this application so I used a Wireworld supernova 6.  The Mac mini was run headless (it shared a shelf with the HiCap on the rack) and it was controlled through Apple's remote app.  The music player was iTunes (yes, I know) and I ripped using my laptop straight onto the Mac mini over our network.  One great virtue of this setup was ease of use which you say is important for gaining your partner's acceptance.  However, much to my surprise, I preferred the sound of CDs ripped and played this way to playing them on my CD5XS used as transport into the nDAC.  An optical cable does impose limits on high res tracks you can play but I never found this onerous.  This route may not suit, but it's easy to implement, relatively cheap to try, has the virtue of simplicity, does not require extra boxes and, to my ears, sounds very good.

Roger

If you used Mac Mini just with iTunes and MM's internal software and soundcard you may not have been achieving the best that can be achieved with MM: for that I suggest trying Audirvana, which when fully optimised bypasses the MM's own software and soundcard. (Interestingly Audirvana provides an iTunes library interface for people who are hooked on it, but even Audirvana itself says that using that interface degrades sound quality.)

Incidentally, glassfibre optical 'cables' are not necessarily better than plastic - the two have different strengths depending on the wavelength of light used for the optical transmission - indeed there is more than one type of glass suited to different applications. SPDIF wavelength is 650nm, where plastic is quite good, and for short lengths plastic or glass is quite immaterial. More important is the quality for termination (and plastic can be easier to terminate than glass).

Hi, the MM is a storage and “player” - sending digital files to the DAC (SU and now the Nova) for Digital to Analog conversion. Nothing changed there per se between set ups with the SU and Nova - I had already switched to Roon before I got the Nova, the MM was always music file storage and the box running the player software for sending the file to the DAC - and the difference in SQ between Audirvana and Roon is very small and getting smaller as Roon is improved.

In moving the files to the DAC, with the SU and Nova there are no USB inputs for file streaming (only UPnP). The digital inputs are limited by virtue of their technical limiations - the BNC connector’s max resolution is 24/192Hz DoP64Fs and Toslink is 24/96. The Nova’s wireless can receive up to 24/384Hz and DoP128Fs so not sure why you think the Wireless is a bad way to connect unless you have a bad network and have drop outs - I have a good network at home and no issues with drop outs since the Nova has much better wifi than the SU. Further, USB and the MM themselves are notoriously noisy due to power interference etc. and thus the reason for my linear power supply upgrade (reduces power noise) and why people use an isolator/reclocker to remove the power interference between source (MM) and DAC.  In my original set up I used the Audiophilleo1 to convert USB to S/PDIF into the SU using BNC.  So, this required about US $1K worth of equipment and 2 more boxes and another power line to clean the signal and transform it and was limited to 24/192 and DoP64 due to the BNC limitations.  That was fine becuase the SU DAC was also limited to 24/192 I believe but the Nova is not.  Interestingly as a side note, I believe Naim licensed some of Audiophilleo’s technology for the DAC1 USB input to help clean up the signal, but for some reason they are not doing this on the Nova?

The Nova also has BNC inputs limited to 24/192 and no USB input for some odd reason (most high end DACs do and many now support 32/384+), but the Ethernet (wired or wireless) supports up to 24/384.   Maybe people think there is wireless network noise but i have not seen this to be the case?  Maybe someone has some details on why wireless is a bad idea but to my experience its higher resolution support (the limit is the DAC not the connection) and none of the issues of noisy signals from power.

So, I can feed the Nova the very best resolution files I have, with zero extra equipment in the signal path to clean the signal.  I should do some A/B testing with the Audiophilleo1 to see for sure but not sure i have the energy for that when the Nova sounds so good as its currently set up.

Make sense?  I’m not super technical this is my understanding...happy for more info.

Hanover33 posted:

Hi, the MM is a storage and “player” - sending digital files to the DAC (SU and now the Nova) for Digital to Analog conversion. Nothing changed there per se between set ups with the SU and Nova - I had already switched to Roon before I got the Nova, the MM was always music file storage and the box running the player software for sending the file to the DAC - and the difference in SQ between Audirvana and Roon is very small and getting smaller as Roon is improved.

In moving the files to the DAC, with the SU and Nova there are no USB inputs for file streaming (only UPnP). The digital inputs are limited by virtue of their technical limiations - the BNC connector’s max resolution is 24/192Hz DoP64Fs and Toslink is 24/96. The Nova’s wireless can receive up to 24/384Hz and DoP128Fs so not sure why you think the Wireless is a bad way to connect unless you have a bad network and have drop outs - I have a good network at home and no issues with drop outs since the Nova has much better wifi than the SU. Further, USB and the MM themselves are notoriously noisy due to power interference etc. and thus the reason for my linear power supply upgrade (reduces power noise) and why people use an isolator/reclocker to remove the power interference between source (MM) and DAC.  In my original set up I used the Audiophilleo1 to convert USB to S/PDIF into the SU using BNC.  So, this required about US $1K worth of equipment and 2 more boxes and another power line to clean the signal and transform it and was limited to 24/192 and DoP64 due to the BNC limitations.  That was fine becuase the SU DAC was also limited to 24/192 I believe but the Nova is not.  Interestingly as a side note, I believe Naim licensed some of Audiophilleo’s technology for the DAC1 USB input to help clean up the signal, but for some reason they are not doing this on the Nova?

The Nova also has BNC inputs limited to 24/192 and no USB input for some odd reason (most high end DACs do and many now support 32/384+), but the Ethernet (wired or wireless) supports up to 24/384.   Maybe people think there is wireless network noise but i have not seen this to be the case?  Maybe someone has some details on why wireless is a bad idea but to my experience its higher resolution support (the limit is the DAC not the connection) and none of the issues of noisy signals from power.

So, I can feed the Nova the very best resolution files I have, with zero extra equipment in the signal path to clean the signal.  I should do some A/B testing with the Audiophilleo1 to see for sure but not sure i have the energy for that when the Nova sounds so good as its currently set up.

Make sense?  I’m not super technical this is my understanding...happy for more info.

It is interesting that you find streaming files via WIFi to be problem-free. I never tried WiFi, but received wisdom on this forum is that it is asking for trouble. As for wired networks (ethernet), whilst I had no problems when I had an ND5XS fed from first a Zyxel NSA325 NAS and later a Mac Mini running Serviio acting as a NAS, it seems not everyone is so fortunate as there are frequent threads seeking solutions to networking problems. That is where I see the integrated store-renderer such as MM-Audirvana as a perfect solution, as opposed to doing as you now are and streaming the file across the network  - yes, it does require removal of the RF hash from the USB output, but that is more straightforward than some people's network issues.

I wonder if your experience is  a demonstration that the Nova, with its more up-to-date approach, has solved all the issues to which Naim's other streaming platforms have been prone. If so, that has to be good news - it would be nice to hear how other people are getting on with it to see if it is universal or if you have just been fortunate to not hit on any network problems.

Agreed - I think the networking is much improved over the SU which had drop out problems, and on the same network (I use an Eero mesh system) the Nova has been nearly flawless.  This could also let me move my MM and power supply to another part of the house.  SQ is improved vs. the USB/Audiophilleo SU set up which I”m sure has multiple reasons including improved amplification section so hard to tell what impact the networking side has without doing some more testing.  I’ve also just got a Mu-So Qb which will do multi-room wih the Nova from the Qb but not the other way round - so streaming Tidal or iRadio sounds great across the two together. Nova supports Ethernet (10/100Mbps), WiFi (802.11 b/g/n/ac with internal antennae) and maybe the system is a bit more fault tolerant than previous Naim wireless.

Love to hear others experiences, and maybe one day I’ll do some A/B testing with the USB-S/PDIF vs. wireless to see if there is SQ differences.

This is exactly what I have been telling IB, i.e. using Audirvana UPNP output to stream music to the DAC without the hassle of SPDIF, TOSLINK hard-wired connection, and I think the SQ from the Audirvana UPNP is the same as the other output options.

imperialline posted:

This is exactly what I have been telling IB, i.e. using Audirvana UPNP output to stream music to the DAC without the hassle of SPDIF, TOSLINK hard-wired connection, and I think the SQ from the Audirvana UPNP is the same as the other output options.

Erm, not quite!

You said it sent the rendered music stream across the network, which I didn't understand - and indeed as I subsequently reported I checked Audirvana's description and confirmed that what is sent across the network by v3.1.x's UPnP capability is indeed not a rendered music stream, however if desired it can be transcoded to .wav (like some other UPnP servers) or can have the first stage MQA unpacking before.

The sound quality then depends on the renderer receiving the stream, rather than Audirvana's ability on the MM (which in turn depends on how it is set up and how effective the RF removal if the DAC is susceptible. I found Audirvana fully optimised through Gustard U12  better as a renderer than ND5XS (both into Hugo). But it may well be that Nova (as used by Hanover33) is better than ND5XS.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Peakman posted:

Bob

Around five years ago there was a frequent poster to these forums: Guido Fawkes, who did a lot of rather thorough comparisons in the area of streaming from a Mac mini into a Naim system.  I think you might find it valuable to put his name into the search facility and read through some of the threads.  Partly influenced by his findings I ended up with a system not unlike Winky's, although I did use a nDAC rather than the SN1's internal DAC.  So my system read: Mac mini (with SSD drive) -> nDAC/XPS -> SN1/H'Cap.  The Mac mini was connected to the DAC via a glass fibre optical cable.  I think cable quality matters in this application so I used a Wireworld supernova 6.  The Mac mini was run headless (it shared a shelf with the HiCap on the rack) and it was controlled through Apple's remote app.  The music player was iTunes (yes, I know) and I ripped using my laptop straight onto the Mac mini over our network.  One great virtue of this setup was ease of use which you say is important for gaining your partner's acceptance.  However, much to my surprise, I preferred the sound of CDs ripped and played this way to playing them on my CD5XS used as transport into the nDAC.  An optical cable does impose limits on high res tracks you can play but I never found this onerous.  This route may not suit, but it's easy to implement, relatively cheap to try, has the virtue of simplicity, does not require extra boxes and, to my ears, sounds very good.

Roger

If you used Mac Mini just with iTunes and MM's internal software and soundcard you may not have been achieving the best that can be achieved with MM: for that I suggest trying Audirvana, which when fully optimised bypasses the MM's own software and soundcard. (Interestingly Audirvana provides an iTunes library interface for people who are hooked on it, but even Audirvana itself says that using that interface degrades sound quality.)

Incidentally, glassfibre optical 'cables' are not necessarily better than plastic - the two have different strengths depending on the wavelength of light used for the optical transmission - indeed there is more than one type of glass suited to different applications. SPDIF wavelength is 650nm, where plastic is quite good, and for short lengths plastic or glass is quite immaterial. More important is the quality for termination (and plastic can be easier to terminate than glass).

Which is why I suggested the OP might find some value in looking at the threads involving Guido Fawkes.  Audirvana and mini-Toslink cables in the context of Mac Mini streaming were both discussed at length by GF.  Sure I could have done lots of experimentation myself but the nDAC was originally bought as an upgrade to my CD5XS and having got it I simply wanted to dip a toe into using a computer as a digital source with as straightforward a setup as possible.  So I was happy to let GF do the comparing and evaluating and simply chose the setup he recommended.  That I was very pleased with the result both in terms of usability and sound was if anything something of a bonus so it is just within the bounds of possibility that others may as well.  And if you read my comments on cables as indicating a belief in the superiority of glass fibre over plastic, I don't think I said that and certainly didn't mean it.  The choice was again just following GF's recommendation.  Since I no longer use this setup, I will let the discussion rest there.

Roger