front-end beef or full seperates

Well - looking at your profile you have an excellent system.    I would be minded to demo a 282/250 and take from there.  

Good luck 

Lindsay

Hmmm — I would add Dave into a beefy poweramp to the audition list. I haven‘t tried yet but thought about trying a Hugo 2 into a 250DR. Many argue that most of the Naim sound comes from the preamp. I have little clue, as I am rather new to Naim. But according to the gentlemen at Signals, Hugo TT into 250DR works rather well. Worth a try I think. 

Agreed, very nice selection of kit.  In your position I would be auditioning the 282/250DR route, no question.  I'm afraid I cannot speak from experience, but all I've read suggest that such a move would be a big leap over the SN2.  Your source seems nailed and pretty kick-ass, so seems the logical starting place to me.

I’d just reflect on whether you really want a three box source and a four box amplifier, with wires all over the place. There are other ways to skin the cat. 

Wires all over the place?  What are you doing them?  One corner of the room behind a bamboo rack, or otherwise, shouldn't be too much of an intrusion....IMO, IME....and all of that.  It's all about the sound, man.  Although, arguably, it should be all about the music.  Hmm.

Hungryhalibut posted:

I’d just reflect on whether you really want a three box source and a four box amplifier, with wires all over the place. There are other ways to skin the cat. 

hmmm suppose end point for me would be NDS (or NDS v2 heres hoping); 555 DR into 282; SC DR; 250 DR   or if i won the lottery maybe full active on the S20a with 2x 250DRs 

alt to that could be DAVE DAC into a 250DR but worry about losing the naim sound....

reflecting on it think i may have a black box fetish of some form if theres a name for such an affliction  

interested how you found moving from a 250 to 300 DR HH?

thanks,

I’ve not compared a SN2 to a 282/250 so can’t really advise. 

In July, when visiting Seoul, I had a chance to compare the XS2, SN2 and 282/250 — however, only relatively brief comparisons. To be honest, I was a bit disappointed about the step up from XS2 to SN2. It was better, certainly — but not as much as I expected considering the praise the SN2 receives. However, from the SN2 to 282/250, I felt a much bigger “jump” than from XS2 to SN2. And then the Hugo (old) was thrown in — marvellous. Sadly, Hugo 2 wasn’t available in Seoul at that point in time... We had ProAc D30 as speakers. 

I made another comparison: Starting from my XS2/ND5XS, I compared improving the amp (SN2) with improving the source (Hugo). That is when I understood the source-first dogma... However, I need to emphasise thsese were all relatively short comparison in a show room, but with music I am very familiar with (my Naim audition playlist on Tidal...).

I have recently had the Hugo 2 on demo for a month,I did not have the proper cable to connect it to my 250 DR directly,but did connect it to another amp direct(RCA connection).It was fantastic,made me forget all about “Naim sound”,I was using the Core as a source into the H2.I am now saving for a Dave,the small footprint and connections on the H2 was a turn off.Whether or not I use it directly into an amp,or keep the 272 in the mix will be figured out when I am closer to pulling the trigger,my dealer does have a Dave on hand for me to try,but it is his home system,so I don’t want to bother him,until I am ready to buy.He did mention that Naim amps-are a different breed,and may not work as well as others fed directly from the Chord.

I would reflect on whether you need a separate pre such as 282 when only have digital sources. A DAC/pre such as 272, Hugo 2, Hugo TT (my personal favourite), Benchmark DAC3, or Dave are maybe better options for digital only sources going direct into active speakers or power amp. 272 into 250 is a very popular Naim option.

Halloween Man posted:

I would reflect on whether you need a separate pre such as 282 when only have digital sources. A DAC/pre such as 272, Hugo 2, Hugo TT (my personal favourite), Benchmark DAC3, or Dave are maybe better options for digital only sources going direct into active speakers or power amp. 272 into 250 is a very popular Naim option.

That’s what I thought, but my ears told me otherwise, and despite having only a single digital source, a 282 was still the best sounding option for me. 

ChrisSU posted:

Halloween Man posted:

I would reflect on whether you need a separate pre such as 282 when only have digital sources. A DAC/pre such as 272, Hugo 2, Hugo TT (my personal favourite), Benchmark DAC3, or Dave are maybe better options for digital only sources going direct into active speakers or power amp. 272 into 250 is a very popular Naim option.

That’s what I thought, but my ears told me otherwise, and despite having only a single digital source, a 282 was still the best sounding option for me. 

Did you try a Chord DAC straight into Naim poweramp? If so, what was lacking without the 282?

Cheers! 

I wonder if there are a couple of “sweet spots” in the Naim range.  ND5(CDS5)/XS2

NDX/SN

NDX/XPS/282/HC/250

272/XPS/250

272/555/300

Well more than a couple

Timo posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Halloween Man posted:

I would reflect on whether you need a separate pre such as 282 when only have digital sources. A DAC/pre such as 272, Hugo 2, Hugo TT (my personal favourite), Benchmark DAC3, or Dave are maybe better options for digital only sources going direct into active speakers or power amp. 272 into 250 is a very popular Naim option.

That’s what I thought, but my ears told me otherwise, and despite having only a single digital source, a 282 was still the best sounding option for me. 

Did you try a Chord DAC straight into Naim poweramp? If so, what was lacking without the 282?

Cheers! 

No, but with NDX/282, my options are still open! Plenty of other options on this route if you care to search. 

ChrisSU posted:

Timo posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Halloween Man posted:

I would reflect on whether you need a separate pre such as 282 when only have digital sources. A DAC/pre such as 272, Hugo 2, Hugo TT (my personal favourite), Benchmark DAC3, or Dave are maybe better options for digital only sources going direct into active speakers or power amp. 272 into 250 is a very popular Naim option.

That’s what I thought, but my ears told me otherwise, and despite having only a single digital source, a 282 was still the best sounding option for me. 

Did you try a Chord DAC straight into Naim poweramp? If so, what was lacking without the 282?

Cheers! 

No, but with NDX/282, my options are still open! Plenty of other options on this route if you care to search. 

Sorry, meant to say ‘opinions’ not options!

ChrisSU posted:

Halloween Man posted:

I would reflect on whether you need a separate pre such as 282 when only have digital sources. A DAC/pre such as 272, Hugo 2, Hugo TT (my personal favourite), Benchmark DAC3, or Dave are maybe better options for digital only sources going direct into active speakers or power amp. 272 into 250 is a very popular Naim option.

That’s what I thought, but my ears told me otherwise, and despite having only a single digital source, a 282 was still the best sounding option for me. 

Where a DAC has a built in volume control (preamp), such as 272 or Hugo TT, it doesn't make sense to add on top of that another volume control, unless the DAC preamp can be bypassed.

Quite a few years ago a guy on another forum had a Wadia CDP (beautiful piece of engineering) with volume control which he ran straight to a couple of mono blocks.   After a while he put in a dedicated pre and things improved - very considerably. 

When does a DAC with a built in volume control become a preamp with a built in DAC and how much compromise is there in putting a DAC in the preamp? Only an audition or two will sort that out. I wonder how many DAC heads have done that comparison.

Halloween Man posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Halloween Man posted:

I would reflect on whether you need a separate pre such as 282 when only have digital sources. A DAC/pre such as 272, Hugo 2, Hugo TT (my personal favourite), Benchmark DAC3, or Dave are maybe better options for digital only sources going direct into active speakers or power amp. 272 into 250 is a very popular Naim option.

That’s what I thought, but my ears told me otherwise, and despite having only a single digital source, a 282 was still the best sounding option for me. 

Where a DAC has a built in volume control (preamp), such as 272 or Hugo TT, it doesn't make sense to add on top of that another volume control, unless the DAC preamp can be bypassed.

Halloween Man, can Benchmark DAC3 be bypassed?

Sorry, I don't know if it can or not. I suspect not as, on the contrary, there can be sonic advantages with digital volume control, some such as Rob Watts of Chord Electronics consider this design superior for digital sources.

Timo posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Halloween Man posted:

I would reflect on whether you need a separate pre such as 282 when only have digital sources. A DAC/pre such as 272, Hugo 2, Hugo TT (my personal favourite), Benchmark DAC3, or Dave are maybe better options for digital only sources going direct into active speakers or power amp. 272 into 250 is a very popular Naim option.

That’s what I thought, but my ears told me otherwise, and despite having only a single digital source, a 282 was still the best sounding option for me. 

Did you try a Chord DAC straight into Naim poweramp? If so, what was lacking without the 282?

Cheers! 

I suspect that most of the people who do not believe a Chord DAC straight into an amp could be better than into a preamp have NOT tried it.Since Chord is a British company,I would think it would be easy enough to get a demo Hugo 2,to try for themselves...it convinced me that Rob Watts is really on to something here.After a week long demo,if you do not like the result,send it back.

Naim power amps are designed and optimised to work with Naim preamps so when using a third party DAC/pre direct into a Naim power amp then all bets are off. This may be the reason why some prefer sound of DAC > Naim pre > Naim power amp.

Given the digital world we now live in and with so many third party DAC/pres available it would make sense for Naim to offer a power amp that was happy to accept a third party DAC/pre for those with only digital source and no need for an analogue preamp.

yeti42 posted:

When does a DAC with a built in volume control become a preamp with a built in DAC and how much compromise is there in putting a DAC in the preamp? Only an audition or two will sort that out. I wonder how many DAC heads have done that comparison.

A clean implementation of a Naim DAC-preamp would be a winner for me. It would allow me to upgrade from my SN1 to "separates" by only adding one more to my box-count, not two. I have no interest in the nightmare, twonky world of the laughably named UPnP streaming, but do like my music to be on a computer, feeding a DAC directly.

hmm interesting points and a lot to mull over must say always had the view that you'd get a better sound from the full separates route (not actually heard a full set up mind, just listening to people talk about theirs)

guess things moved on a lot now with DACs/pre combos and digital transports flooding the scene and opening up other upgrade paths