Buying NAC 252 now or wait?

I agree. The 272/555 is amazingly good, but it’s not an NDS/552. Something at that level or better in two boxes has got to be possible. A while ago I thought Naim would ditch the existing analogue preamps in favour of streaming preamps, but when the 172 went it made me think again. Almost certainly there will be a new platform 272 equivalent, and hopefully a 372 without inbuilt power supply and able to take both inputs of the 555, but how much further can they take it?

Buy it and stop reading the forum. 

My understanding is that Naim's philosophy is that putting multiple components in the same box ultimately limits the SQ available from such a box, be it a source, DAC, amplifier, power supply or a combination of these. Separating power supplies into discrete boxes is part of this philosophy.

One-box or boxes with more than one component inside is OK up to a point and that is where the Classic range come in. Essentially one box containing one component (pre amp/power amp/Streamer/DAC/power supply) or at least the possibility to add a separate power supply as an upgrade for those sources and pre amps that have their own power supply.

We would all like a lower box count and I am sure this is not lost on Naim. But there do seem to be some compromises that Naim are not prepared to make in the interests of SQ. This is why we may not see a 372 (unless there are some lessons on how to shield components learned from the new Uniti developments) and I am fairly sure we will never see a 572.

Although I have been wrong before. 

They just need to try harder and stop living in the 1980s. If Linn can do it, so can Naim. Who wants their sitting room to look like a Naim shrine. Of course it can be done. 

Isn't it something to do with how the signal is processed in the digital and analogue domain and the design of power supplies that is a fundamental difference between Naim and Linn design philosophies that makes it easier for Linn to consolidate components into one box but is a significant compromise should Naim do the same.

Those with more technical knowledge than me might be able to explain/enlighten.

Hungryhalibut posted:

They just need to try harder and stop living in the 1980s. If Linn can do it, so can Naim. Who wants their sitting room to look like a Naim shrine. Of course it can be done. 

Well said. And to all those who have a "SWMBO" who says all those boxes look 'orrible: well she is right. Still I feel Naim is trying hard.

nigelb posted:

Isn't it something to do with how the signal is processed in the digital and analogue domain and the design of power supplies that is a fundamental difference between Naim and Linn design philosophies that makes it easier for Linn to consolidate components into one box but is a significant compromise should Naim do the same.

Those with more technical knowledge than me might be able to explain/enlighten.

Linn use Switch Mode Power Supplies (SMPS) which are much smaller than conventional linear supplies so they can fit in a smaller form factor. There are of course compromises with using these type of supplies but done properly (Linn, Devialet etc) they can work very well.

The Naim approach still makes a lot of sense - keeping sensitive analogue circuitry away from noisy digital circuitry and power supplies. The compromise then comes with all the cabling needed to string it together.

As with most engineering challenges, there are many ways to achieve the same thing but all have their particular advantages and disadvantages. 

I am pretty sure that Naim are fully aware that domestic harmony is important and reducing box count would be appreciated by many of us and our other halves. Surely they would do this if technically possible without compromising SQ. For most (all?) of us optimising SQ is the ultimate goal or we would all be going for one or two box solutions.

I am not sure that urging Naim to try harder is the solution!

I'd contend that it's not the black boxes that potentially disturb the visual harmony of the domestic environment: it's the speakers. Many are big, have 'look-at-me' styling and need to be well away from the rear and side walls. Even so called 'book-shelf' speakers don't really sit discretely on bookshelves. They typically sit on stands that look like they are designed to support the weight of a large car. What catches the eye of visitors first?

[disclaimer - okay, I have eight black boxes ] 

Well just buy Linn stuff if you want fewer boxes, they are overpriced and sound very inferior to my ears. I would rather have the choice.

I think we will see a 500 series multi box streamer before anything else, so keep wishing on single box solutions. Naim will keep doing their own thing, despite the input. It’s why we still buy their kit........it’s different.

Gazza posted:

I think we will see a 500 series multi box streamer before anything else, so keep wishing on single box solutions. Naim will keep doing their own thing, despite the input. It’s why we still buy their kit........it’s different.

Yes - good to have so much choice in this big Hi-Fi world 

I like the look of my multiple boxes???? hope i can switch in near future from 1 box Nap 250 to 2 box 300 ????, but i have a seperate music room, so its a different story.

Just bought a NAP 300,what a step up in performance. They did it for a reason, I forgive them....

james n posted:

nigelb posted:

Isn't it something to do with how the signal is processed in the digital and analogue domain and the design of power supplies that is a fundamental difference between Naim and Linn design philosophies that makes it easier for Linn to consolidate components into one box but is a significant compromise should Naim do the same.

Those with more technical knowledge than me might be able to explain/enlighten.

Linn use Switch Mode Power Supplies (SMPS) which are much smaller than conventional linear supplies so they can fit in a smaller form factor. There are of course compromises with using these type of supplies but done properly (Linn, Devialet etc) they can work very well.

The Naim approach still makes a lot of sense - keeping sensitive analogue circuitry away from noisy digital circuitry and power supplies. The compromise then comes with all the cabling needed to string it together.

As with most engineering challenges, there are many ways to achieve the same thing but all have their particular advantages and disadvantages. 

Not wishing to get too bogged down in the engineering side of things, a mate of mine, with a full Linn system, initially  couldn't really "get" why my Naim setup required so many boxes, compared to his, with, as mentioned above, SMPS power supplies, which could be individually upgraded to the next level of Linn power supply level. 

However, over a year or two of listening to music Chez Dave, where he loved the musical presentation, he became somewhat disillusioned with what he was hearing at home, and has since made the move to Lejonklou amplification, and is currently very happy with things.

I think it's only a matter of time though, until he becomes convinced that the Naim approach of separating power supplies from source components really does work, engineering considerations notwithstanding.

If Naim didn't exist I would probably own a good Linn system and be very happy. Having compared the best that both can offer back to back, the Naim presentation won. It was an easy victory to my ears. Still a victory, but not so clear cut to Helen's ears. I can easily see why others would reach the opposite conclusion. It's good that we have so much choice.

On the subject of speaker aesthetics, the Linn Akurate system scored badly here. Neither Helen nor I could live with those speakers. Visually.

Why do Linn think that putting a huge sock over their speakers is a good idea aesthetically? They look like they are about to rob a bank.

Hungryhalibut posted:

They just need to try harder and stop living in the 1980s. If Linn can do it, so can Naim. Who wants their sitting room to look like a Naim shrine. Of course it can be done. 

it has been done, it's called Uniti Atom, Star and Nova?

Life. Live it now, or wait?

G

nigelb posted:

I am pretty sure that Naim are fully aware that domestic harmony is important and reducing box count would be appreciated by many of us and our other halves. Surely they would do this if technically possible without compromising SQ. For most (all?) of us optimising SQ is the ultimate goal or we would all be going for one or two box solutions.

I am not sure that urging Naim to try harder is the solution!

Indeed that is one of the reasons why apparently  they built the new Uniti series, but if you go to the factory and talk to some of the design leadership, they tell you it’s in the Naim DNA to decouple and have separate boxes, that is how they achieve the quality they do on their premium models.. by careful physical decoupling.

Sure, some manufacturers like Linn go for mass miniaturisation... well only your ears can decide, I listened to Naim and Linn, and still do, and for my tastes it’s a no brainer to go Naim.

As far as decoupling goes, I think and have found there is great benefit in decoupling streamers from DACs, but Naim don’t appear to be pursuing this path right now... but it does mean the media server and codec type have a disproportionate impact on the SQ. Decouple and the effects are hugely minimised.

From what I hear from certain sources we  might see more from Naim in the future about going back to their roots of decoupling and separation....  BTW 12 months ago I was told by Naim on a visit there were no plans to update the Classic series... and this sort of development if it were to be done would take several years assuming it even came to fruition which would also be uncertain... I wouldn’t hold your breath, they find it quite challenging to keep up with demand with current product sets...

Finally Naim also have / had an interesting marketing slide which showed  the Unitis and the combined units being an optional stepping stone to full Classic Series or higher compononent separates ... however clearly there was an appreciation that many customers would be satisfied with their audio and not progress up the Naim value ladder... it was like a trickle up....

Simon

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

nigelb posted:

I am pretty sure that Naim are fully aware that domestic harmony is important and reducing box count would be appreciated by many of us and our other halves. Surely they would do this if technically possible without compromising SQ. For most (all?) of us optimising SQ is the ultimate goal or we would all be going for one or two box solutions.

I am not sure that urging Naim to try harder is the solution!

Indeed that is one of the reasons why apparently  they built the new Uniti series, but if you go to the factory and talk to some of the design leadership, they tell you it’s in the Naim DNA to decouple and have separate boxes, that is how they achieve the quality they do on their premium models.. by careful physical decoupling.

Sure, some manufacturers like Linn go for mass miniaturisation... well only your ears can decide, I listened to Naim and Linn, and still do, and for my tastes it’s a no brainer to go Naim.

As far as decoupling goes, I think and have found there is great benefit in decoupling streamers from DACs, but Naim don’t appear to be pursuing this path right now... but it does mean the media server and codec type have a disproportionate impact on the SQ. Decouple and the effects are hugely minimised.

From what I hear from certain sources we  might see more from Naim in the future about going back to their roots of decoupling and separation....  BTW 12 months ago I was told by Naim on a visit there were no plans to update the Classic series... and this sort of development if it were to be done would take several years assuming it even came to fruition which would also be uncertain... I wouldn’t hold your breath, they find it quite challenging to keep up with demand with current product sets...

Simon

If we take your logic together with Steve Sells stating in a recent interview that the story of digital development is in its infancy (and you extrapolate from that that the the next developments by Naim are more likely to be in the digital realm), it is not unreasonable to speculate that the next big thing from Naim will be a Statement level streamer with a the streamer and DAC in separate boxes. The learning from this new thing would possibly then trickle down to a new Classic level Streamer and DAC. Only guessing of course.

Let's see.

Indeed, you never know 

Simon, your answer to Nigel comment is quite interesting and reassuring. I already had made my mind regarding the purchase of the 252/300DR combo, but it is comforting to know that nothing in terms of preamp is about to show up.

The upcoming combo isn’t the only novelty in our living room.

I added a dedicated main (2 furutech schuko wall sockets connected to an independent 2,5 mm high-quality wiring).

As half of the walls are windows, I also ordered acoustic curtains. It’s made of a light fabric that lets sunlight in, but has an alpha-p coefficient of 0.8. It absorbs 80% of sound energy, which is amazing for such a light fabric!

It’s a Swiss product. I’m pretty sure that this might interest some people in this forum.

Her is an article :
https://newatlas.com/empa-tran...rbing-curtain/18556/

The fabric designer website :
http://www.douglas-textiles.ch/

And another website with the specs:
https://www.architonic.com/en/...-pro-col-100/1335598

Tomser,

Is that you in your avatar up a well high mountain ? Looks terrifying.

Ray

Ray,

Yes it's me. Apine climbing is quite a relaxing hobby. And pretty less terrifying then driving a bicycle through the city. I have some more pics here : http://www.serra.se

Tom