NAC A5 – What Did I do Wrong?

I would really suspect you have them wired out of phase if you hadn't said you've checked it.  Even so I gonna say are you sure,  are you really sure ??   How did you check this ??    I really would go over that again - do you know how to check it using a 1.5v battery ??

Re the long shot other possibilities.   It may possibly be you do have a bad solder joint,  but even if its not so neat I doubt a bad joint would give the effects you describe.    Re banana plug pin material/plating,  the Naim pins are the same material as used in the Naim amp speaker sockets so they are 100% right for the job,  besides even if it was rhodium or anything different, it would not cause your problem.

Soldering NACA5 has to be done properly. Have you read the section on it in the Forum FAQ? Alternatively, ask your dealer to do it for you. 

The Naim right angled plugs are the right ones to use at the amp end, and nickel plated Deltrons at the speaker end are a good choice. Also, make sure that the stiffness of the cables is not exerting any tension on the ends, especially the amp sockets. Softening it up with a hairdryer and preforming a bend can help. 

Hi George,

May l suggest that you take the NACA5 cables to your local dealer and kindly ask them to make them up for you. I have found the soldering, type of solder and termination technique are critical to A5 performance and it really 'is' a big deal. I have proved this to myself time and time again!!

It took me quite a bit of practice with a solder iron to get the process right over time and I have been soldering for over thirty years!!

The difference between the job being a good one or a bad one is massive in terms of performance, get it right however and everything falls into place as well as the penny and why one should be using it in the first place.

georgecart posted:

I am not an expert in soldering, at the amplifier end, based on the photos I have seen from the internet, my termination was not the prettiest, but by far not the worst.

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...-andamp-f-connection

Various aspects like direction, coating on plugs, etc. shouldn't be make-or-break matters.

You seem to have a decent relationship with your dealer. If he's happy so to do - I'd take the cables to his shop and (if he uses NAC A5) substitute them in a known system to check they aren't doing something disastrous.

I'd suspect a problem with the soldering. It would be useful anyway for the dealer to check this. It's one of those jobs that's fairly easy - the 50th time you do it but a bit-of-a-bugger the 1st.

If all is well with the cables and you prefer the ones you have - resell the Nackers on-line.

.....also, did you strip the insulation back until you found pristine, shiny copper before soldering the new plugs. If corrosion has crept under the insulation over time, you should cut beyond it through clean wire. 

ChrisSU posted:

.....also, did you strip the insulation back until you found pristine, shiny copper before soldering the new plugs. If corrosion has crept under the insulation over time, you should cut beyond it through clean wire. 

Good point!  

Maybe you just prefer the sound of the Audioquest cables. Ask your dealer to solder up the A5 properly, using the plugs you have, and see if it makes a difference. If it doesn’t, you have your answer. 

ChrisSU posted:

.....also, did you strip the insulation back until you found pristine, shiny copper before soldering the new plugs. If corrosion has crept under the insulation over time, you should cut beyond it through clean wire. 

This has been a question I've raised with myself and haven't been arsed to answer.

NAC A4 used to go green like gang busters and it was considered good practice to trim back to the copper before soldering (new) plugs. I slightly wonder if the worries prompted by the visuals were necessarily indicative of actual deterioration within the working bits of the solder joint.

Since NAC A5 became semi-ubiquitous I haven't noticed that verdigris as a problem. That said, like the Queen visiting a hospital, when you work at Naim, all the cable you encounter 'smells of new paint'.

The problem with A4 was able to migrate inside the insulation. Perhaps A5 melds these two elements better and maintains airtight conditions within.

My (longstanding) Naim dealer hates the Naim right angle plugs because they are so prone to poor soldering. They always install high quality crimped plugs on NAC A5. I say that not because they are necessarily taking the right approach but because it might explain why you are not getting good results with your soldering.

Adam Meredith posted:

ChrisSU posted:

.....also, did you strip the insulation back until you found pristine, shiny copper before soldering the new plugs. If corrosion has crept under the insulation over time, you should cut beyond it through clean wire. 

This has been a question I've raised with myself and haven't been arsed to answer.

NAC A4 used to go green like gang busters and it was considered good practice to trim back to the copper before soldering (new) plugs. I slightly wonder if the worries prompted by the visuals were necessarily indicative of actual deterioration within the working bits of the solder joint.

Since NAC A5 became semi-ubiquitous I haven't noticed that verdigris as a problem. That said, like the Queen visiting a hospital, when you work at Naim, all the cable you encounter 'smells of new paint'.

The problem with A4 was able to migrate inside the insulation. Perhaps A5 melds these two elements better and maintains airtight conditions within.

I think you are right, Adam, in that A4 and other cables are more prone to this than A5. I did come across it once, though, on some very old A5 which I suspect had been flexed repeatedly at the ends to loosen up the insulation. There were small traces of green oxidation nearly 100mm inside it. 

Some years ago I owned Chord signature cables and ran these with my Olive system (82/180).  After reading about Naca5 I tried some, and did initially find that the sound was slightly 'thinner' than with the Chord, so I do understand where you are coming from here.  However, the Signature was just adding bass which shouldn't have been there in the first place. 

I also ran a Supernait for a while on demo with the Signature cable, and while I enjoyed the sound it was almost a tad vacuous, difficult to explain in words.  Also the S/N plays a very refined sound compared to the older Naim equipment, so Naca will accentuate these qualities (mid / treble, lots of detail).

Speaker cables can alter the sound of your system, and needs to be tried out to see which you prefer.

I would check it has been soldered properly as mentioned above, but be cautious, as there is an art to this and even dealer examples I have seen in the past have been shocking to say the least.  Dr Peter is the best man for that, he did my first runs of A5 and they are excellent.  Nowadays I solder my own cables as I have mastered it, however, you need a very good quality iron (to give an idea mine was approx £300).  Good tools and all that...

It could be that you just prefer the sound of your AQ cables, but I would give the Naca5 a couple of weeks as it took me a while to adjust to the sound but now I really enjoy it.  There is also the supposed burn in time but I equate this to relate to your ears adjusting to the sound more than anything else. 

This is just my personal opinion of course

In summary, once you've checked the phasing and soldering etc, give it some time to settle into the system and see how you feel in say three weeks or so.

Wow, thanks everybody for the quick responses.  I did strip the cable back by cutting of the exposed ends, I didn’t want to lose too much length so is didn’t go much further back than this.  Yes I did watch several tutorials on the termination of the Naim plugs before attempting myself.  My iron was not as powerful as some recommended, and it was my first not 50th time of course so not perfect by any means.

I have a couple of follow up questions.

1) Say I take the cables to a dealer, can the existing naim plugs be desoldered and re-soldered or do new ones need to be used?

2) If I chose to diagnose the issue by removing the naim plugs and installing high quality crimped plugs to at least see if I like the cable and to identify which way round the unmarked run should go, what high quality crimped plugs do you recommend?

Thanks for all the help so far!

George

BTW if it’s relevant I live in Toronto, Canada 

If you can get to a friendly dealer, take the cable and compare it to his demo set. 

JedT posted:

My (longstanding) Naim dealer hates the Naim right angle plugs because they are so prone to poor soldering.

The Naim pins are dream easy to solder with NACA5,  they're designed for just that.  Also required is operator training/skill,  the right solder & the right wattage/temperature soldering iron.  

georgecart posted:

Wow, thanks everybody for the quick responses.  I did strip the cable back by cutting of the exposed ends, I didn’t want to lose too much length so is didn’t go much further back than this.  Yes I did watch several tutorials on the termination of the Naim plugs before attempting myself.  My iron was not as powerful as some recommended, and it was my first not 50th time of course so not perfect by any means.

I have a couple of follow up questions.

1) Say I take the cables to a dealer, can the existing naim plugs be desoldered and re-soldered or do new ones need to be used?

2) If I chose to diagnose the issue by removing the naim plugs and installing high quality crimped plugs to at least see if I like the cable and to identify which way round the unmarked run should go, what high quality crimped plugs do you recommend?

Thanks for all the help so far!

George

BTW if it’s relevant I live in Toronto, Canada 

1. Yes you can

2. The Naim plugs are the ideal connection at the amplifier end. 

georgecart posted:

... what high quality crimped plugs do you recommend?

None.

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...84#21277303071503884

Hungryhalibut posted:

Maybe you just prefer the sound of the Audioquest cables. Ask your dealer to solder up the A5 properly, using the plugs you have, and see if it makes a difference. If it doesn’t, you have your answer. 

There is the distinct possibility that THIS is going on

georgecart posted:

1) Say I take the cables to a dealer, can the existing naim plugs be desoldered and re-soldered or do new ones need to be used?

 

Well; you can if there wasn't too much solder applied in the first place and it hasn't flowed into the grooves below the cable slots, otherwise i'd start again with new ones.  The pins need to have play in them and the plug top should not touch the solder joints after it is screwed back on, everything should be free to wriggle around or performance will be severely impaired as it will be stressed upon insertion. I have found that all this stuff really matters, I can clearly hear it in my system if attention to detail is ignored.

If you're in Toronto then try someone like Steve at Hififofum who can check the NACA5 and strip and resolder if needed.

Crimped plugs are pants unless they are properly mechanically crimped on with a tool and then soldered.  Most 'crimped' plugs are just screwed on, and whilst they might work you aren't getting the best connection.  All 'proper' speaker cable terminations used by the likes of Chord and Naim are soldered.

My advice is to take the time to do it correctly, or send the cable to a dealer that you know is able to do the work to a professional standard. 

I had a similarly disappointing and alarming experience when I first switched to NAC A5, and started a thread along the same lines.  I received much of the same advice, with the addition of letting them burn in  as my cables were brand new.  They didn't burn in, I didn't adjust to them, my (now) dealer checked them out and found the solder to be a good job.  But...when I bought them my situation was different, and i was not in that happy place with the system, which shares the SN2 and actually Van Den Hull D102-III (which I think are great BTW), but digital front-end.  I was hoping A5 would mend something that was a bit broken, but what they actually did was accentuate the gripes, namely over emphasized top and bottom end, and worse still the stark absence of mid range grunt and warmth.  They did make the sound cleaner and more defined, but also it was thin and vocals in particular were really grainy.  

I still use NAC A5 with my current speakers after a re-think, and the system has had me utterly hooked ever since they arrived 6 months ago.  From some of the demos I had too, it seems quite clear that the all Naim amp and cable arrangement does not work well with some speaker combinations, not in terms of what I want anyway.  As already suggested it might just be it's not for you, at least not with your speakers.  It's a cable that is quite clearly different in presentation to that I've used previously, and even when perfectly terminated can sound both pretty awful, and, thankfully, absolutely sublime depending on what you hang on the end. 

Richard, I got in contact with Steve at HiFiFoFum.  I'm going to head there tomorrow to get the cables checked out. 

bulky connection soldering demands 1  correct new stock solder ,clean contact area. correct clean tip and temperature   patience/practice    if not et someone else do it  

Update: so I took the cables to Steve at Hififofum, a local Naim dealer.  My soldering job and terminations checked out ok.  His belief is that the NACA5 cables should sound better and that the set up of my system could be a factor right now.  Left with plenty of advice to check out my speaker stands for resonance for starters and some loaner isolation pucks to see if isolating any one component helps the sound to aid diagnosis of the root cause.

Steve was very helpful, thoroughly recommended!

JedT posted:

My (longstanding) Naim dealer hates the Naim right angle plugs because they are so prone to poor soldering. They always install high quality crimped plugs on NAC A5. I say that not because they are necessarily taking the right approach but because it might explain why you are not getting good results with your soldering.

I wonder if your dealer is my former dealer?  They persuaded me to crimp a broken NACA5 cable (and its partner) and it sucked out a lot of what I liked about NACA5 and the Naim sound.  The three highly respected Naim dealers I've had dealings with since (I'm going back 12 years to the crimping job) swear by a good solder joint and will have nothing to do with crimping.