Reality Gap (reversed): Why such an emphasis on Hi Fi sound stage and imaging?

There are so many things I would like to comment on, but trying to cut and paste and attribute the original on a little tablet is too much.

So - sound stage in a concert - on a rare occasion I went to a large hall in the last year wherd the support act was a solo singer. I was sat in the balcony and as well as the left, right side of stage PA, there was a speaker array on a bar among the lights.  It was most disconcerting to quite clearly hear the guitar on the stage and the vocal up by the ceiling.

At home I definitely have width and depth at the armchair directly facing the speakers and about ten feet away, but if I sit at the PC at the far end of the room there is just a ""wall" of sound.

And does it matter - there is the video still available about the manufacture of a well known turntable where the man puts a record on then goes and sits at the side of the room....

In my experience, imaging, sound stage mapping, and how a system projects into a room are the result of complex interactions among a number of variables in any system.    Speaker design, and particularly cross over design seem to have the largest role in how a system images, but they are certainly not the only factor which contributes to this experience.   In some fundamental ways this is a real estate issue.     To recreate depth of field, most speakers need to be placed well into the room, and this is often very hard, if not impossible, to manage in many homes-even among those music lovers who own superb equipment.   When we were first mixing Naim electronics with American high end speakers in our store in New York, starting in the late 90's, the olive generations of the Naim electronics did tend to create a more uniform wall of sound than some other electronics, but could certainly image far better than the myth might have suggested.     These performance attributes have improved over the ensuing decades of Naim's electronics and modern Naim amps are far more capable of this sort of performance when used with speakers capable of excellent imaging, and when set up to allow this to manifest.    I have heard many Naim systems with both Wilson and Avalon speakers which image superbly, and preserve the hallmark Naim dynamics and musicality.    Now, whether a given listener will be attracted to the musicality in a system's performance, or the imaging is a very personal matter.    Imaging does seem to be a "leaned skill", if we can use that somewhat clumsy phrase.

Real imaging, as it is often discussed in the high end press is almost exclusively a function of the miking techniques used on the recording.    Furthermore it is rare in that most modern commercial recordings do not possess a true representation of the hall acoustics except on certain highly specialized classical music or choral recordings.    Even acoustic jazz and folk recordings are regularly made with microphone placement and techniques in place which can't convey the natural room acoustic of the venue used for the recording.    Studio recordings rarely even attempt to capture this performance attribute and on most recordings the producer or the artists are choosing how to "locate" the instruments in the recording artificially, they are not attempting to capture how they were arranged on stage during the event.    In many recordings the use of isolation booths, individual microphones for spotlighting of the players and other tools to aid in the recording process preclude a natural soundstage, to say nothing of the possibility that the musicians were not even the same room at the same time during a recording, or overdubbed themselves to create an effect that the artists wanted. 

If you are interested in hearing recordings which do capture a realist depth of field, and soundstage, take a listen to some of Keith Johnson's superb recordings of classical music on Reference Recordings.    For a system to capture and preserve these very low level cues requires superb low level detail retrieval.    Interestingly, I often find that as a system gets better in these areas, the timing is also improved.     Imaging is only one of many attributes about a recording though, and many listeners will react more to tonal balance, the ease of hearing an individual musical line, dynamic life, and other matters.    

Some very high power amps which use ganged output devices in designs that were unlike Julian's original designs will tend to slow the music down, and this is one of the reasons Naim amps tend to time better than some high power amps.   To me, this is often about the leading edge of the notes, and some systems will tend to have a faster feel when they capture the start of each note.    To get the full note envelope and natural bloom is quite challenging on an engineering basis, so listeners are often confronted with choices which are incomplete, but somewhat predictable if you put in enough listening time to be able to identify these parameters.    To use one popular example, many tube amps do bloom and the tail end of the notes nicely, but are not fast enough to keep the sense of forward momentum alive in the music.    They might be said to slow the music.   Other amps, often solid state designs, can be very fast, and preserve the sense of music being a flowing river,  but may not recreate the full bloom of the notes, lending them a more skeletal feel.    Finding a balance you are comfortable with as a listener is a very important part of the process of choosing a great system for long term musical satisfaction in my experience.

If this were not already complex enough, room acoustics play an enormous role in whether you can hear a natural soundstage in your room, on your equipment.    When all of the stars align, the imaging and the timing of a system can both be superb, but this is an extremely high bar for most listeners who have their systems set up in living spaces which are also used for other things; such as living!    By far the best imaging I have ever heard was in the reference playback studio that Avalon Acoustics maintains in their headquarters in Boulder.   This room is far larger than most living rooms, and is very extensively treated with room acoustic treatment made by the superb Italian firm Acoustic Applicata.    Their approach is an uncompromisingly idealistic one, and Avalon make no apologies for this.     In this room, with a full suite of Spectral electronics, both imaging and timing were clearly optimized, and superbly natural.    On listening, this paid dividends on music from all genres, but not all recordings.    Certain recordings have more information hidden in them which can be opened up by a high resolution system, yet some recordings simple fell flat, and don't really form into a three dimensional hologram.    For me, as a music lover, there were still performance cues to hold my interest, but if you were mainly interested in hearing a fully three dimensional playback experience, you might gravitate to the use of only the best recordings.    That is the classic distinction between what is often called the "audiophile listener" versus the "music lover".   It is important to understand where you fall on this continuum in order to make informed choices as you build or evolve your system.

Good listening,

Bruce

Bruce,

Thanks for the insightful response.

Haim

I have attended a few Classical concerts in my time, but unfortunately I did not focus on any soundstage, image and depth of the orchestra at the times of concerts.  But when I want to test/audition new speakers I always play Hector Berlioz's March to the Scaffold.  What this piece of music will tell me straight away if the speakers manage suitable depth in the soundstage.  This piece of music is repetitive to represent the march to the scaffold, if the speakers lack depth, then the piece of music will come out flat, repetitive, even ponderous and boring.  However if there is depth in the soundstage, this piece of music becomes a very different beast, I feel the tension build up slowly, and the music representing the utter dreadful despair of oncoming death, the increase of anxiety measuring beautifully to each step taken towards the scaffold.  Maybe Berlioz composed the piece with some sort of soundstage in mind...?

Bruce

Thank you for your insightful post.

You use the word bloom which I interpret to describe the way a note opens out like a flower and then gradually decays. Some talk about the being able to hear the timbre of all the various instruments. Would you say that timbre is manifested as part of the bloom?

Phil

Hi Phil,

In general, yes.    In truth, although some of the best audio journalist have worked hard over many years to define the use of certain terms to describe the performance of high end equipment, we don't really have anything close to a universally agreed upon vocabulary for these attributes.    In my work with customers, one person might reach for the term "warm" and mean it as a compliment, when another listener might use the same term to mean a coloration that is being added by a component or a system.     Bloom is often used to mean how well instrumental textures and other subtle cues are being communicated, or it could be more trying to convey the sense of how the fully the notes open up from the initial attack of the notes, or other similar ideas.    Most listeners, even those with a great deal of experience with high end audio, are not in a position to really judge in a definitive way what should have been there on a given recording unless you were at the original event and have heard the recording process.    The recording artists, their producers and engineers have a different perspective than music lovers.    While we might not like all the choices an engineering team makes, we can all agree that one of the great things about music is that it is unique for each listener.  

Good listening,

Bruce

Bruce, once again thank you for your response. I find it difficult to find the words to fully describe what I hear. It would be useful to have a universally agreed language. I think it needs to be taught by an expert through listening and discussion about what was heard. 

I have always tried to overcome the problem of not knowing how a recording sounded when recorded by listening to lots of recordings. When I find characteristics that impress me I take note. As my system has evolved I look to retain the previous good characteristics and add more, particularly from recording that just have not impressed me so far. I take the view that the recording engineers liked what they heard on their gear which is far better than mine. Therefore if a change I am demoing allows me to enjoy such recordings while still enjoying those that were already enjoyable, it must be worth buying. One has to be careful to listen to enough music to ensure the change is not skewed towards a small subset of ones collection making the rest worse to listen too. 

Phil

Filipe posted:

 

I take the view that the recording engineers liked what they heard on their gear which is far better than mine.

Not necessarily the case: some music is mastered to sound good on what the industry perceives as ‘typical’ systems, using restricted range monitors for the purpose. Those should sound as good as they can on similar domestic systems, but might never sound as good as better recordings on better systems.

From a different angle, if you want to hear as the engineer did when monitoring on the best quality systems, then you’d probably get closest using pro-level active ATC, PMC or Dynaudio speakers (or for old recordings maybe Tannoys etc). And you’d quite possibly soffit-mount the speakers (I.e in-wall with fronts flush), and ensure your room has effective acoustic treatment. You might also find that the Ideal sitting position is a little forward of the middle of the room. For some people this can work, but for most there has to be more than a passing nod to domestic considerations 

Filipe posted:

 I find it difficult to find the words to fully describe what I hear. It would be useful to have a universally agreed language. I think it needs to be taught by an expert through listening and discussion about what was heard. 

 

The more you use 'universally agreed language' to describe the very personal experience of listening to music (or gear) the more you will sound boring and standardized.

I rather listen on any day to the musicians (or someone else) speak of the music than to an engineer describing how he tinkered with the sound.

Haim Ronen posted:

Filipe posted:

 I find it difficult to find the words to fully describe what I hear. It would be useful to have a universally agreed language. I think it needs to be taught by an expert through listening and discussion about what was heard. 

 

The more you use 'universally agreed language' to describe the very personal experience of listening to music (or gear) the more you will sound boring and standardized.

I rather listen on any day to the musicians (or someone else) speak of the music than to an engineer describing how he tinkered with the sound.

Haim, In the context I was  describing it was about the sound a system makes playing a recording. When I post about what I am listening to I try to describe my own own emotions when or reasons for posting about the music. I quite agree that it can become boring to use universal language on the music threads. The music forum should be about our personal stuff rather than what the critics said. I enjoy posts which educate me about an aspect the poster is enjoying. Phil

Innocent Bystander posted:

Filipe posted:

 

I take the view that the recording engineers liked what they heard on their gear which is far better than mine.

Not necessarily the case: some music is mastered to sound good on what the industry perceives as ‘typical’ systems, using restricted range monitors for the purpose. Those should sound as good as they can on similar domestic systems, but might never sound as good as better recordings on better systems.

From a different angle, if you want to hear as the engineer did when monitoring on the best quality systems, then you’d probably get closest using pro-level active ATC, PMC or Dynaudio speakers (or for old recordings maybe Tannoys etc). And you’d quite possibly soffit-mount the speakers (I.e in-wall with fronts flush), and ensure your room has effective acoustic treatment. You might also find that the Ideal sitting position is a little forward of the middle of the room. For some people this can work, but for most there has to be more than a passing nod to domestic considerations 

IB, I can appreciate that these days what is released is designed to maximise sales. Some pop music has too much bass on good HiFi which can put one off. I suppose it might be nice to know what goal the engineer was aiming at. Neutral would be my gaol. Not sure what other terms might be needed. Phil

Filipe posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Filipe posted:

 

I take the view that the recording engineers liked what they heard on their gear which is far better than mine.

Not necessarily the case: some music is mastered to sound good on what the industry perceives as ‘typical’ systems, using restricted range monitors for the purpose. Those should sound as good as they can on similar domestic systems, but might never sound as good as better recordings on better systems.

From a different angle, if you want to hear as the engineer did when monitoring on the best quality systems, then you’d probably get closest using pro-level active ATC, PMC or Dynaudio speakers (or for old recordings maybe Tannoys etc). And you’d quite possibly soffit-mount the speakers (I.e in-wall with fronts flush), and ensure your room has effective acoustic treatment. You might also find that the Ideal sitting position is a little forward of the middle of the room. For some people this can work, but for most there has to be more than a passing nod to domestic considerations 

IB, I can appreciate that these days what is released is designed to maximise sales. Some pop music has too much bass on good HiFi which can put one off. I suppose it might be nice to know what goal the engineer was aiming at. Neutral would be my gaol. Not sure what other terms might be needed. Phil

I don’t listen to much pop music - never have (taking pop as in current chart-and Radio-1 type stuff), so I don’t recognise that - and to me it is hard to imagine too much bass (as long as it is tuneful, full range and at least reasonably controlled).

I think more of a problem can be too much upper bass, tweaked to give the illusion of bass on systems incapable of reproducing the bottom 2 or 3 octaves, coupled with too much compression. 

BDNYC  -  Enjoying your contributions to this thread.  If my memory serves, you are the member who recommended Rosanne Cash "10 Song Demo" a few years ago.  If I am correct, I am indebted to you as it is one of my most cherished recordings.  My sincerest thanks ... and praying my memory is not failing at the moment.  best regards, Jeff A

Hi Jeff,

Rosanne Cash is one of my favorite songwriters and performers, so I could well have put some combination of raves, drools, gushing schoolboy overstatement, and other more moderate forms of praise for her work on the Forum.    If I did turn you towards "Ten Song Demo", I am thrilled.

If you don't yet know her work in it's entirety, the "breaking off point" where Rosanne left the cozy confines of the mainstream Nashville country movement of the 80's is her record "Interiors" which remains my favorite of her many fine albums.    It is a highly personal and confessional record; up there with any work by Jackson Browne, Joni Mitchell, James Taylor, etc..    Today it would be termed Americana, but at the time, it was her declaration of artistic independence, which she has followed up with a series of superb recordings.    Many of her more recent records are also available on vinyl, so if you enjoy the large black disc format, you might take a look at her website where she sells many of her records and you can, if so inspired, order signed versions of many of them.

Good listening,

Bruce

Bruce

I am familiar with "Interiors", "The List", "The River and the Thread", "Essential......"etc.  I don't use vinyl any longer but the music still comes through in the other formats.  Your recommend of "10 Song Demo" started me on that path.  So thanks again.  Good listening.  And sorry for the thread diversion, Haim.  Jeff A

Perhaps our recent tangent is actually an illustration that musical and artistic merit often is more important than recording quality for many listeners.

Bruce

I would agree but musical and artistic merit is an individual judgement call.  However, it is always nice to find moments of common interest with another listener.  take care, Jeff A