Nap 200 , wich pre ?

analogmusic posted:

I had the v1 and still have my 202

no the preamp section of v1 isn’t that special at all

the 202 is much superior

As the DAC-V1 only has a single analogue output how can you evaluate the pre-amp section separately? It's the same audio signal path feeding your 202 whatever mode you're using the DAC-V1 in.

Dave

A 272 makes sense and is very good but I would not agree with HH’s assessment  of it relevant to the 202.  But of course other factors play including which PSUs are used.  

There is a  line level output selectable from the menu.

The 202 will leave options open for future Naim digital source releases, the 272 looks like a dead end. Besides which it,s a lot cheaper used, if box count doesn’t frighten you. You can buy a Naim DAC with the difference.

same here, I prefer the 202 as a preamp to a bare 272. a 272 with XPS is another beast, but then so is a 202 with a Hicap DR and NAPSC. I still like the 202 very much, and I own a 282 and listen to both every day, I just can't find any issue with the 202's performance.

Sometime I just wonder... the 202/200 is such a classic Naim amp with the old school musical Naim rhythmic sound, it could easily have been my end game amplifier.

Anyway - since the apparent utility of a preamp is to preserve the details and musicality at lower volumes - remember that the preamp takes a full 2.1 volt signal and has to reduce this to 1/10th of that, the 202 is much better at this than a V1.

I agree that it should not make any sense or different, yet it does, I remember Edouard used a qute (which also has the same output as V1, only through the preamp), and ran it from a 552 , and reported, that he could hear the magic of the 552 still

It doesn't make much sense to me either, but I've done this test myself.... the only explanation I can think of it that the 202 is better at keeping the signal at low volume than the V1 is.

The V1 uses a resistor ladder as volume control, but the 202 uses an ALPS pot with precious metal Wipers.... a much better volume control.

The Statement by the way does use a resistor ladder, but that one is one without any compromise in terms of materials and resistors used, there isn't space inside a DAC V1 to use that kind of no compromise resistor ladder volume control. Then the budget of parts of a V1 doesn't allow those kind of resistors either.

Maybe Richard Dane can add some comments, I'm sure he has tried his Qute into his 552?

There is an obvious superiority of the DAC-V1 'fixed' output mode over its variable pre-amp output IMO. The sms-200 (or Ultra)/  DAC-V1 combo should offer a very high quality source when V1 is used as DAC only with an equally or more transparent preamp. Its own pre-amp is then used for the headphones.

analogmusic posted:

The V1 uses a resistor ladder as volume control, but the 202 uses an ALPS pot with precious metal Wipers.... a much better volume control.

To quote the DAC-V1 design engineer:

"...the DAC-V1 incorporates a digitally controlled CMOS analogue volume control and preamp. The Class A pre-amp stage also doubles up as a high quality headphoene amplifier with the ability to drive many headphones, even high-impedance ones. There has been no comprise on the sonic performance of the DAC-V1" HiFiChoice May 2013

Dave

It baffles me, I read through this whole page and not to be rude but no one has asked what you feel your missing that the V1 isn't already giving you? and how do you listen/digest your music, Do you use your computers USB feed straight into the V1? (then V1 will still be your only option), Are you purely digital? are you hoping to get into Vynal? Do you already have a turntable? Do you already stream? Each of these will dictate what/how you should buy. No real point of a 272 if you don't stream over a network, you wouldn't be using half its functionality.

TBH there are a few options as mentioned above but all come at an expense, But above all! will it be a noticeable improvement to you to justify that expense, hence the comments about the sideways move.

good news is 202 can be had fairly cheaply

Bad news is, I've a tried a bare 202 with a DAC v1 and guess what it sounds like a V1, I'm sorry nothing changed, in my opinion, I completely agree with DAVE4JAZZ on that and adding a power supply won't change that MAYBE you get a slightly wider stage and more insight, but its not night and day in my eyes . Adding a 272 completely different story, though the V1 isn't a million miles away either. What your pumping in with the V1 is what you'll be getting out, albeit still very fine. Unfortunately, I think your next move will be an expensive one to absolutely better it. I wouldn't do it for a small tweak here and there for me it has to be a solid "yeah thats for the better" unless you have a long term plan/ goal in mind. But even if it has made difference is it a difference you like?

The v1 and nap 200 have a great synergy with a "greater than the sum of there parts" sound.  Listen to all your options before buying I really think you'll be surprised what it takes. Just  my 2 cents (probably a little more)

The Strat (Fender) posted:

A 272 makes sense and is very good but I would not agree with HH’s assessment  of it relevant to the 202.  But of course other factors play including which PSUs are used.  

Well I would, and strongly.  By a small margin, I preferred the nDAC/SN1 to the nDAC/200/202/NAPSC both with HiCaps.  This was after long audition at home over one Christmas period and I much preferred the 272/250DR to the former (and my preferences are transitive.)  But that's just my view so I'm not sure if any of this helps the OP.  Perhaps it's time to declare a moratorium on comparisons of the box-that-shall-not-be-named with other boxes.

Roger

The OP states in their third post that they use a network streamer, in the SOtM SMS-200. That’s why a 272 would be a viable option. Only an option mind. The OP asked, I provided an option. The OP can do what the OP wishes. 

analogmusic posted:

I still like the 202 very much, and I own a 282 and listen to both every day.

Not my business at all, but are you saying that you listen to music every day and every day you alternate preamps?

It's probably because I hate options and choices, but I would be totally off-balance and confused after a single afternoon...

Max

yeti42 posted:

There is a  line level output selectable from the menu.

The 202 will leave options open for future Naim digital source releases, the 272 looks like a dead end.

+ 1.........   is an open and future proof  system  (  sell V1 and Lumin D1 as source ? ) 

twinkletoes posted:

Bad news is, I've a tried a bare 202 with a DAC v1 and guess what it sounds like a V1, I'm sorry nothing changed, in my opinion, I completely agree with DAVE4JAZZ on that and adding a power supply won't change that MAYBE you get a slightly wider stage and more insight, but its not night and day in my eyes . Adding a 272 completely different story, though the V1 isn't a million miles away either. What your pumping in with the V1 is what you'll be getting out, albeit still very fine. Unfortunately, I think your next move will be an expensive one to absolutely better it. I wouldn't do it for a small tweak here and there for me it has to be a solid "yeah thats for the better" unless you have a long term plan/ goal in mind. But even if it has made difference is it a difference you like?

The v1 and nap 200 have a great synergy with a "greater than the sum of there parts" sound.  Listen to all your options before buying I really think you'll be surprised what it takes. Just  my 2 cents (probably a little more)

 

Ok , I have to take the plane  for the UK and go for a listen V1 vs. Nac 202...at the moment here ....all the seller are with the new streamers  ( uniti ) in minds  

They 've been forgot the classic systems.....

Erm.... not sure I’d get on a plane for that.

202 will eventually lead to further spending like hicap and napsc

are you willing to do this?

if not suggest you stay with dac v1

I also sold my dac v1 and got a Chord hugo which really turned my system into something else

so while the Nac 202 is a much better preamp, you already got a system which is musical

I had122x/200 for a few months before getting a 202 I loved the 202/200 Napsc and serviced CB Hicap great amp. I'm going to be a bit unfashionable and say although obviously better the 282 is not the massive night and day improvement over the 202 that some have reported it wasn't until I went from 282/200 to 282/300 via 282/250 and then upgraded my speakers that I heard what the 282 is capable of. 

I'm not sure about the dac v1 as I've never heard it and for me the 202/200 was always better with an analogue front end but my advice would be to trade the v1 in for a Hugo or 2Qute and see if you can stretch to a 202 with a Napsc and Hicap alternatively Chord dac/Supernait or a Superuniti. 

 Chord  dac's  needs  a dedicated  linear psu ?  

202/hicap DR, napsc2/200 definitely.

It's a fine system and what I  Have.

Even though 122x/hicap would work well , 202 would still let you perceive a much bigger picture but it's only once you get your 202 hicapped you understand what a foolishness not to have chosen the latter.

 Also as a pre 202 hicap DR would trash any 272.

Antonio1 posted:

 Also as a pre 202 hicap DR would trash any 272.

In your dreams. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

Antonio1 posted:

 Also as a pre 202 hicap DR would trash any 272.

In your dreams. 

This gentlemen depends on the source.  With a NDX and 200 the 202 would indeed have the upper hand over a 272/200.  But put a XPS and 250 with the 272 and things aren’t the same as they’re not if you add a XPS to the NDX.   Horses for courses. 

And if you're going to buy used, buy a serviced NAC202 - I bought an un-serviced 2005 NAC202 and didn't like it. It's nowhere near as good as the serviced one I bought later

Do the NACs really need servicing?

Hungryhalibut posted:

Antonio1 posted:

 Also as a pre 202 hicap DR would trash any 272.

In your dreams. 

so sorry to let you down.

there's no room for my dreams into that hyped reality

Have to say, the 202 with or without a Hiccup got that classic Naim sound, which is very engaging.

I've heard 272 with XPS and without, and somehow I can't understand why, but I like the 202 more.

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Do the NACs really need servicing?

Generally yes, particularly if you can hear that the sound is a bit "off" (best compared against a good example), mainly because there's no way to guarantee that after so long the components are all still within spec tolerance.  However, I've heard Naim pre-amp way past their service due date that sound fabulous.  Then again, I've also heard other Naim pre-amps where the sound was definitely lacklustre and so really needed to be serviced.

The NAC 202 is a fine piece although it gets battered quite frequently on this forum. There was a forummer who wrote that the difference between the 202 and 282 isn't that great which goes against the basic tenets of Naim. As an owner of both 202 and 282 who has frequently compared both, I can say that both camps are quite right. There are no units of measurement to provide standards for comparison ie. to measure the difference in sound quality between gear. What i can say is the 202 still retains the classic Naim sound and doesn't sound too shabby (that's what most folks would want you to think). It's a fine piece in its own right. 

The OP already has a superb amp - the 200 - so he has two sensible choices around his budget, a 202 or a 272. 

When it came out I went to one of the roadshows and was really taken with the 272.  So I went back and did the full dem 272/200 vs NDX/202/200 and took my own (v familiar) speakers and my music - the only time I've ever invested this much effort in a dem (it so happened I wasn't working at the time which helped). 

I really liked the 272 but the inconvenient, inescapable conclusion was that the NDX/202/200 was clearly better.  I never bought the NDX though because I didn't want the box proliferation.

The OP already has a streamer he likes so imo he's down to one sensible choice - a 202. 

I'm not familiar with the v1.  I'm sure it is a great bit of kit but I'm very sceptical it equals a 202 as a pre.  NAPSC is essential on 202 as has been said many times before. 

I still have my 202/200 and have recently gone for a Nova/Neat Iota Alpha's in our living room.  So the other thing I'd say is no need to rush, take your time, there'll always be new options coming to the market and somebody willing to sell you something. 

Olly