Lavardin's new ISX and ITX range looks interesting with updated remote functionality. I remember reading a couple of older threads where their Integrateds compared very favorably against a SN1, though I've never heard the French integrated myself to make an assessment. They seem to take a simple approach to audio design. The K-Rak is an example. Pricy wires though. 

analogmusic posted:

it's been Naim fundamental philosophy to separate preamp from power amp.

 

You could say the same about any high end electronic manufacturer whose line includes integrated amps on top of more expensive separates. Actually, NAIM's selection of three integrated amps, not counting their Unity line, is more than most have to offer.

analogmusic posted:

it's been Naim fundamental philosophy to separate preamp from poweramp

 

As it was to keep a preamp separated from its power supply, which had to be done manually by those who added an XPS or a 555 to their 272, making half of the internal stuff redundant after it had been built as 'improper' to begin with...

It's a cold, grey, rainy f***ing winter morning, I had to bear three meals in a row with basically foreigners disguised as relatives, long afternoons of meaningless chats and I can't stand being months away from summer, sun and flip flops, so only grumpy posts from me this morning. Sorry.

So this is heretical and I am biased.

Try EAR Yoshino, for some reason the company website seems to list only part of the range, look at a dealer website and find a range that is not only different configurations of valves, but solid state as well.

Just think, before dismissing this as crazy, there is a good chance that the album you are listening to was recorded in a studio with de Paravicini breathed on equipment.

Max_B posted:

It's a cold, grey, rainy f***ing winter morning, I had to bear three meals in a row with basically foreigners disguised as relatives, long afternoons of meaningless chats and I can't stand being months away from summer, sun and flip flops, so only grumpy posts from me this morning. Sorry.

I'm with you!  This week every year for the past ten years I have been getting ready to leave for a month of 30 degree heat and sunshine but this year because of the financial constraints brought on by renovating I'm stuck in England for January which is  a pretty grey, rainy glum place itself.

I was recently very close to settling on the 282/250DR to replace my (then) resident Symphonic Line integrated but eventually opted for the Ypsilon Phaethon integrated. It s a hybrid design but not at all "tube-like" sounding. Very transparent with tight bottom end (very close to what the NAIM combo could do when I had it for home demo) but also very airy top end and offering an overall more holographic musical presentation. I did get a rather good deal on it which helped to tip the scales....

G. 

The Strat (Fender) posted:

I’ve always been impressed with Vitus but never heard with Dynaudio.  

A couple of people whose opinion I respect speak very highly of Vitus; did you hear the integrated amp (RI100??). Did you find it 'boogied' like the Naim amps?  

I recently made the switch from Naim to AVM (cs5.2). Class D but not at all ‘sterile’ or ‘clinical’ sounding. Great clarity and detail, a lot of control in the low end and some warmth in the mid’s. I believe pmc are distributing them in the uk.

I found Rogue Audio to be a really great match with a Naim Source.  I love my Cronus Magnum Integraded albeit at a lower price point.  I auditioned it with a CDX2 and the combo was amazing.

Hey again, not to change the subject but, I'm kinda new to this, and wanted to ask a question about power. I had an experience the other day where I heard a Sugden Class A 23 watt intergreated amp that seemed to sound  louder than a Class A-B amp with 100 watts. So, all I could seem to think was how could it be ? So, that's my question. How can a Class a 23 watt amp sound louder, cleaner and better than Class a-b amps with more that 4 times the power ? Is it because the class a is more efficient?  And would it be better to get a Class a  amp with lower wattage, than go for the mega a-b wattage ? Thanks again 

Max_B posted:

analogmusic posted:

it's been Naim fundamental philosophy to separate preamp from poweramp

 

As it was to keep a preamp separated from its power supply, which had to be done manually by those who added an XPS or a 555 to their 272, making half of the internal stuff redundant after it had been built as 'improper' to begin with...

 

and add for which you have paid in vain

French Rooster posted:

Anto68 posted:

Integrated amp to replace 282/300?

 

probably unknown in UK but considered the best integrated amp in the world .

Grandinote Shinai

It's like having a band playing live in the living room.

Requires two power cables because  these are two mono units enclosed in a single box

From Bressana Bottarone, Pavia, Italy

 

the best integrated in the world?  there is nothing like that and certainly not at around 8/9 k. 

Even the audio note ongaku at 100k or d’agostino momentum at 50 k , one of the best certainly, are not the best in the world because all is subjective and some prefer tubes , other solid state, some are better for power hungry speakers, other are better for very sensitive horns.....and each person has his own preferences.....

but the grandinote shinai is certainly a very good one.

I don't know if it can be considered the best but in my experience I can say that the Grandinote Shinai is the integrated that most approached live music with an impressive naturalness for that price range: I can say that only Fm Acoustic and Nagra I was impressed at these levels but with separate boxes and at costs much higher than 8/9K 

A brief answer to freedom sounds, the measured output is a bit misleading as it’s a measure into a fixed load. Playing music into 2 , 3 or 4 way speakers with the dynamics of the music highs and lows gives a variable load. An amplifier has to instantaneously react and provide current to the speakers. Naim have always had relatively low power rated amps with large toroidal power supplies and capacitors with fast output devices. They will play into most loads continuously, no problem. Some companies, yes, have a good power spec on paper, but the power supply is not as capable as some so called lower power rated amps. In your particular example I have not heard Sugden, but they have been around for years and are well respected, I presume the other amp may be struggling with the music and speakers by comparison.

But as often mentioned on the forum, your ears rarely lie, if it does not sound good, it probably is not for you. Hope this helps.

That Sudgen A21 class a amp is a great one, but also has variations in its frequency response going out through different ohms - so could appear louder at some frequencies than others at a relative identical volume.

Thanks to gazza & tobyjug as usual for your response.

Anto68 posted:

Max_B posted:

analogmusic posted:

it's been Naim fundamental philosophy to separate preamp from poweramp

 

As it was to keep a preamp separated from its power supply, which had to be done manually by those who added an XPS or a 555 to their 272, making half of the internal stuff redundant after it had been built as 'improper' to begin with...

 

and add for which you have paid in vain

I don’t get this, many Naim devices can work in multiple modes and to improve SQ disable those parts not required when working in specific modes . Naim streamers are a case in point, they are either optimised as transports or analogue renders, depending on which mode is used specific circuitry is disabled.

This sort of versatility and attention to detail to my mind is what makes Naim great, and it is this design you are paying for. Most of the components themselves are worth no more than a few pennies to a few pounds... (or to many pounds with some transformers which become bypassed when an off board PSU is used)

TOBYJUG posted:

That Sudgen A21 class a amp is a great one, but also has variations in its frequency response going out through different ohms - so could appear louder at some frequencies than others at a relative identical volume.

This would explain why the bass was all over the place when I auditioned one a decade or more ago, for my speakers at the time it was wrong but interesting. Careful speaker choice needed for this one I think and no it won't compete with a 252/300.

Freedomsounds posted:

Hey again, not to change the subject but, I'm kinda new to this, and wanted to ask a question about power. I had an experience the other day where I heard a Sugden Class A 23 watt intergreated amp that seemed to sound  louder than a Class A-B amp with 100 watts. So, all I could seem to think was how could it be ? So, that's my question. How can a Class a 23 watt amp sound louder, cleaner and better than Class a-b amps with more that 4 times the power ? Is it because the class a is more efficient?  And would it be better to get a Class a  amp with lower wattage, than go for the mega a-b wattage ? Thanks again 

Specifications do not tell how an amplifier will sound and if your ears prefer the Sugden compared to others than this is the one for you. 

FYI, to my ears my little Nait 2 sound cleaner and better than my other more powerful Naim separates. 

After some years happily Naimed-up, I recently lived, variously, with a 252/250DR next to a Vitus RI100 next to a Gryphon Diablo 300 (all through Contour 60 speakers) for some weeks before making a final, quite difficult, choice. Also a Plinius Hiato. Naim presentation is entirely different to the excellent Vitus/Gryphon. Former is, indeed, addictive - the PRaT thing. Virtues of the latter reside in a wider palette of colours. It's simply a case of 'horses for courses'. I found the Hiato a little closer in presentation to Naim, but concluded it didn't time right for me in my set-up. (Not that there may be anything wrong with its timing per se, or that there's anything at all wrong with Naim timing.) Of others, I cannot speak, because I haven't heard. But (these) higher-end integrateds have come an awfully long way and their numbers might be said to suggest a wider trend towards simplification/reducing box count. In any event, not to be dismissed or derided without an extended listen IMO. 

The thing with an Integrated is that it sounds integrated - regardless mostly of the quality of the pre-amp section within - as the short signal sections should bare witness to less loss of signal without complexity.

With a separate pre and power there are many more issues involved  from set up and matching that could undermine synergy -  that factor that Bob thought was the defining quality of a 282/300 system.

So, is that to say that useing different  cableing won't affect the over sound as much in an intergrated amp as much ?

No, different interconnects and speaker cables will have just as much effect between components in an integrated set up as they will in a pre/power set up. But there's at least one set of IC's less to worry about with an integrated; more if the integrated packs a DAC and or/phono stage, too.

Got it, thank you ! ???? 333 

There are good (and better) integrated amps out there. Personally, I am always in favour of an integrated anyday for simplicity and space.

The Mcintosh MA9000 comes to my mind as potential contenders athough I have not listented to it myself.

The bigger question is  whether you like the sound.

Another equally relevant question for me is which one present better value not only in terms of price during purchase but also resale value.