Supernait 2

Wolf, like many other Naim pre-amps, the Supernait 2 uses analogue pots (the superb ALPS Blue) and so if you feed a very high output source then even when the pot is at its minimum travel you may get a very faint trace of signal - much will depend on output level and sensitivity of speakers.  To fully mute the signal, you should use the mute button.

Thank you Richard for your suggestion!

And yet, remembering the long and accurate test that Stereophile conducted on the SN1, finding it a very good and exceptionally stable amp (with the usual minor reserves) John Atkinson wondered about the 'higher than necessary gain', which prevents the superb Alps pots from being used as they should, i.e., in my opinion, that at a comfortably loud volume the pot should be able to reach the so called '12 o' clock' position.

It's still a source of mild annoyance for me to be forced to use a good potentiometer not in its optimal working range.

Perhaps one day someone at Naim – who knows, the SN designer – will explain why the 'higher than necessary gain'.

Max_B posted:

Perhaps one day someone at Naim – who knows, the SN designer – will explain why the 'higher than necessary gain'.

Oh Max, if only you had not ditched that record player back in 81 

Max_B posted:

Perhaps one day someone at Naim – who knows, the SN designer – will explain why the 'higher than necessary gain'.

Hi Max,

 I think the overall gain is one of the differences between the two generations of the SN.

It is also good to see you still here on the Forum. I really do appreciate your thoughts, including those on Robertos lamp .

Max_B posted:

 

Perhaps one day someone at Naim – who knows, the SN designer – will explain why the 'higher than necessary gain'.

I hope too!!

Max_B posted:

Perhaps one day someone at Naim – who knows, the SN designer – will explain why the 'higher than necessary gain'.

Max,

True believers never ask questions or request explanations.

H

Max_B posted:

And yet, remembering the long and accurate test that Stereophile conducted on the SN1, finding it a very good and exceptionally stable amp (with the usual minor reserves) John Atkinson wondered about the 'higher than necessary gain', which prevents the superb Alps pots from being used as they should, i.e., in my opinion, that at a comfortably loud volume the pot should be able to reach the so called '12 o' clock' position.

It's still a source of mild annoyance for me to be forced to use a good potentiometer not in its optimal working range.

Perhaps one day someone at Naim – who knows, the SN designer – will explain why the 'higher than necessary gain'.

It is so the amplifier seems powerful to the customer when demonstrated in the store.

I use the supernait with Thiel1.6 speakers that work at 4 ohms ... think how powerful it is, I could do without this great gain !!

I agree that it's an annoying feature of the Naim preamps, but Naim have stuck with this pot on the basis of sound quality, which they always put at the top of their list of priorities, so that's just the price we have to pay. Perhaps the answer id to buy some really inefficient speakers!!

Max, perhaps from Naim's view the high gain was necessary from a sound performance perspective?  

I thought gain on the Supernait 2 is lower than on all other naim preamps except 272? Certainly limited volume travel is an issue for 282, 202 and Supernait 1 that I haves owned.

winkyincanada posted:

It is so the amplifier seems powerful to the customer when demonstrated in the store.

That's an interesting premise. Most everything on this forum regarding Naim architecture is faithfully attributed to optimal design choices. Maybe simple marketing is the best answer in this case?

Joerand, the best answer for whom?

It's historical and based on a performance decision. See my post above.

Haim Ronen posted:

Max_B posted:

Perhaps one day someone at Naim – who knows, the SN designer – will explain why the 'higher than necessary gain'.

Max,

True believers never ask questions or request explanations.

H

True skeptics should too.

M

Richard Dane posted:

Max, perhaps from Naim's view the high gain was necessary from a sound performance perspective?  

Richard, no doubt about it – although I am no technician, I very much doubt it was decision made just to bother users...

Yet, it doesn't particularly disturb me; it's only that turning the volume pot at leisure, having physical headroom to fine tune the loudness, is a pleasing experience, which is sometimes denied by some preamps or integrates by Naim. I will never know how the amp sounds with the pot in its optimal position (there's  literature, to which you too contributed exhaustively, regarding the compromise Naim accepted between good sound and relatively 'poor' tracking of the pots at the lower positions). I still like the SN, but my question remains. 

Christopher_M posted:

Max_B posted:

Perhaps one day someone at Naim – who knows, the SN designer – will explain why the 'higher than necessary gain'.

Oh Max, if only you had not ditched that record player back in 81 

I didn't. Around that time I replaced my Thorens TD147/Stanton 681eee with a rega Planar 3/Rata cart, which stayed with me for some years. My next, and last, TT was a Thorens TD 160 that I sold around 2001. Then, in recent times, I had a Dual 701 and, now, a Pioneer PL112D. The path reflects my diminishing interest in vinyl along the years; having had my CDX2 completely rebuilt to today's specs reflects my interest in CD.

This morning, though, and old friend of mine who's an electrical engineer came to call for the usual Season's Greetings and brought me, as a gift, a small pre-phono of his own built. A sign of the times..?

joerand posted:

winkyincanada posted:

It is so the amplifier seems powerful to the customer when demonstrated in the store.

That's an interesting premise. Most everything on this forum regarding Naim architecture is faithfully attributed to optimal design choices. Maybe simple marketing is the best answer in this case?

simple marketing?  What an ignorant, ill-informed and shallow minded conclusion.

for disclosure sake, Joe Rand sold his Supernait for a Plinius "HAUTONGA" and so is part of a group of ex-naim amplifier owners.

Analog, that's bordering on ad hominem. There's no need to "out" Joerand - we're all well aware that he has a non-Naim amplifier these days.  Make judgements on what you think or feel about kit or music rather than other members.  Thanks.

Max, Naim did make a change to the gain - lowering it very slightly at some point (I'd need to check my notes on exactly when but it was IIRC around the "Chrome Bumper" period).  However, radical change is not possible unless you totally change the architecture of the amps - as Naim is a performance-first company, there's no point in doing that unless there's a real performance gain - or abandon  cross-compatibility across the Naim range (new and old).  The latter would only be considered should the former mean a meaningful leap in performance. The fact that hitherto on the analogue pre-amps the gain has remained the same should give you your answer to the question.

In any case, the sound of Supernait combined with the Thiel speakers and the dac Chord I really like !!!

I can live with Naims volume control.

It becomes more of an issue with some modern overmodded digital material (stuff I have less of a preference for). It just requires a more gentle touch to achieve  the right level.

Not so much a Naim issue as it is one with recording engineers lower standards. Only on some material though.

Wolf53 posted:

In any case, the sound of Supernait combined with the Thiel speakers and the dac Chord I really like !!!

Which Chord DAC are you using? The 2Qute has a high output that will not help. Some, including the Hugo, can be used with variable output which would allow the amp volume control to be used over a wider range. 

Richard Dane posted:

Max, perhaps from Naim's view the high gain was necessary from a sound performance perspective?  

That is entirely possible. What is also perhaps possible is that the consequent attenuation that is required to control a high-gain pre-amplifier to reasonable output levels could have been achieved by placing a high-quality resistor in series with the volume potentiometer, allowing the use of more of the adjustment-range of the volume control unit. The hair trigger volume on my Supernait is actually a bit of a pain, particularly when trying to optimise the volume at low levels using the remote. It just seems silly to only ever use 30% of the range.

I still believe that many consumers would (perhaps incorrectly) conclude that an amplifier that needed the volume at the 1:00pm position for reasonable listening was less powerful or efficient than one alongside in a demo that achieved the same levels at 9:00am position.

Winky, my question to Max was a rhetorical one. It has always been a performance decision. See my explanation above. Adding a resistor may help but ultimately it sounds worse.